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Post by Blake on Feb 27, 2006 12:56:34 GMT -8
I simply can't understand from reading Paul's letters (or at least the letters traditionally attributed to him) can be excepted as scripture. Paul attacks circumcision constantly! He even goes as far as wishing those who insisted on gentile circumcision castrate themselves!!! Gal 5:12As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! Also, you say Gentiles should be circumcised and follow the whole of the  (as they should) , while Paul said the opposite. Gal2: 3But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: I just can't reconcile Paul with the gospel of Yehoshua. I appreciate any input. |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 28, 2006 15:01:31 GMT -8
Others have gone through the same thing Blake. I submit that Shaul was and is hard to understand, and consequentially has been misunderstood by both Jews and the Church alike. Give me some time to gather some material and I will submit a good response to your mis-givings.
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Post by Ashirah on Mar 1, 2006 9:44:10 GMT -8
I have read or heard somewhere that Paul's letters are exactly that - they are Paul's letters to the different churches and that they aren't really "scripture" perse'.
Has anyone else heard this? I would be interested in hearing what others have to say about this.
I think the NT cannot contradict the OT. If it does then there is an error in translation or in our understanding.
Does this tie in with "there is nothing new underneath the sun?"
Thank you
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Post by Ashirah on Mar 1, 2006 9:59:31 GMT -8
Never mind on answering any of my questions here - I read the thread "Netzarim" and got my question answered there. Thanks.
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Post by Blake on Mar 1, 2006 16:58:46 GMT -8
I believe you are right. Paul certainly did not envision his letters becoming a canon of scripture... Perhaps if he had known he would've been a little more clearer and more careful.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Mar 3, 2006 23:25:34 GMT -8
Shalom Blake, Please start new individual threads (if they don't already exist) on the passages that confuse you. We would be happy to discuss them with you and help to clear up a few things. I find Sha'ul (Paul) to be consistant with and the teachings of Yeshua. One thing to keep in mind is that Sha'ul was writing letters (G'd inspired in my estimation) to various congregations that had issues going on in which we did not know the whole story. So, it is hard to say what the exact circumstances were. In regards to Titus, we don't know how long he had been a believer and what point he was in his sanctification. Furthermore, I believe the point of Shaul's letter in this regard was concerning those pressuring others to be circumcised in order to be saved. I believe this angered Sha'ul because new believers could first come to Messiah and later be sanctified in the word as time passed...But, first they had to have a chance to come to Messiah before being scared off by men with beards and knives trying to cut something that would freak most Gentiles out. In other words, these Gentiles needed a little breathing and growing room after coming to Messiah...Sha'ul did not want to over water these tender plants...and neither should we. But, if the plant looks thirsty...let them have it!  Shalom, Reuel |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Mar 15, 2006 4:52:08 GMT -8
BlakeSince Reuel would rather do this on a passage by passage basis (it would be easier for others to follow too), if you want to start up new threads with the passages in question, I would be more than happy to help clear up any misunderstanding. 
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Post by Golfnerd on May 7, 2006 3:36:33 GMT -8
IMHO, Paul was busting the Pharisaical belivers in Yeshua for advocating that the Gentile believers in Galatia needed to be circumcized AND follow the rabbinical decrees in order to be saved. When Paul said... 12 I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves. he was suggesting that the brethren who were trying to force this on the Gentile believers to go ahead and circumcize themselves first! It's like this - "FINE!! You guys want them to be circumcized? Then do it to yourselves FIRST!!!"  Make sense? |
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Post by Firestorm on May 7, 2006 4:59:29 GMT -8
 I highly recommend FFOZ's HaYesod course for your congregation or study group. Paul's epistles and the whole circumcision issue are dealt with in depth. I'd also say check out Lancaster's book "Restoration" also available from FFOZ. He clarifies the subject very well in a based context.
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Post by Blake on May 11, 2006 9:48:18 GMT -8
These are problems which really irk me concerning Paul in general. 1. He claims to be a Jew, even a Pharisee that was educated in Jeruselum under Gamliel. Yet, all of his letters smack not only with Greek launguage, but Hellenistic Philosophy and Gnostic ideas. 2. He was raised in Tarsus, a city in which the Mithra's cult was quite prominent and traveled and taught in pagan cities where similar mystery cults were popular. That seems to me he was attempting to bring Gentiles away from their faiths into a syncretized mystery j*e*s*u*s religion. 3. Speaks vehemently against Jews, Judaic practices, and the much of the time. 4. Refers to being a persecutor of the Notzarim under the orders of the Pharisees. There is no evidence of such persecution until long after Paul was dead. In fact, Ribi Yehoshua was called Rabbi, meaning he was an ordained Pharisaic Rabbi. 5. He refers to an outlandish story in which some being made of light appears to him as j*e*s*u*s which to me seems obviously made up to justify his "apostleship". Nowhere else do we hear about Yehoshua appearing to someone like this after his assumption. 6. According to himself he was constantly at odds with the legitamate Netzarim community in Jeruselum 7. The Ebionites reviled him as a false teacher. |
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Post by Natan-El on May 11, 2006 15:45:20 GMT -8
I'm curious why Paul was the key instrument used by the holy men of his day to carry out the persecution of the believing jews? Why, if he was such an unworthy jew or a greek-smacking jew was he given such a role of authority? ;D
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Pioneer
Full Member
Shema and Shemar
Posts: 210
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Post by Pioneer on May 11, 2006 18:46:58 GMT -8
These are problems which really irk me concerning Paul in general. 1. He claims to be a Jew, even a Pharisee that was educated in Jeruselum under Gamliel. Yet, all of his letters smack not only with Greek launguage, but Hellenistic Philosophy and Gnostic ideas. 2. He was raised in Tarsus, a city in which the Mithra's cult was quite prominent and traveled and taught in pagan cities where similar mystery cults were popular. That seems to me he was attempting to bring Gentiles away from their faiths into a syncretized mystery j*e*s*u*s religion. 3. Speaks vehemently against Jews, Judaic practices, and the much of the time. 4. Refers to being a persecutor of the Notzarim under the orders of the Pharisees. There is no evidence of such persecution until long after Paul was dead. In fact, Ribi Yehoshua was called Rabbi, meaning he was an ordained Pharisaic Rabbi. 5. He refers to an outlandish story in which some being made of light appears to him as j*e*s*u*s which to me seems obviously made up to justify his "apostleship". Nowhere else do we hear about Yehoshua appearing to someone like this after his assumption. 6. According to himself he was constantly at odds with the legitamate Netzarim community in Jeruselum 7. The Ebionites reviled him as a false teacher. It seems to me, that you believe all the lies told on Sha'ul! Check out all of Pauls "surprize endings". Paul uses sarcasm to cut the "Strong Gnostic Believer" 1 Cor 8:1 The Gnostic is strong in knowledge thinks he can go into a idols temple and partake of food offered to idols, but what does Paul say to this "Strong in the Faith Gnostic Christian"? I'd say study Paul with "New Eyes" form your own conclussions instead of others. Paul is either picked by Yeshua or he is hasatan. I believe the bible. Sorry to rain on your parade. Shalom |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on May 12, 2006 11:02:40 GMT -8
Dear Blake,
I appreciate you as a brother and I am really trying to be patient with you... But, you seem to be ignoring recent and past requests regarding your campaign against Rav Sha'ul (Paul). I have asked you to address your objections to Sha'ul's writings in separate threads. Not only do the forum rules make it clear, but I have warned you on numerous occasions on several different threads that this is not a place to teach people that the writings of Rav Sha'ul are not of G'd. This forum stands for and supports that they are indeed G'd enspired words. Please ask your questions based on specific passages in separate threads and we will happily answer your questions. But, the next time I have to address this with you, it will result in a temporary suspension of forum privileges until you feel you can abide by the rules therein.
Thank you for your cooperation and I hope you understand,
Reuel
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Post by Dogface Of Judah on May 12, 2006 19:19:27 GMT -8
Yeah i've been holding my tongue on this thread so far  That may change. Ed |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on May 21, 2006 21:11:57 GMT -8
Can you briefly explain?
Todah,
Reuel
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(as they should) , while Paul said the opposite.
I highly recommend FFOZ's HaYesod course for your congregation or study group. Paul's epistles and the whole circumcision issue are dealt with in depth. 
