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Post by messimom on Aug 6, 2005 17:00:41 GMT -8
Shalom All, I agree with Bat Yosef. And I have to come back to Deborah the judge. Just because she was an exception doesn't mean it was wrong. If YHVH didn't want a woman ruling, interpreting  , and making sure it was properly carried out, He never would have allowed the situation to arise, and furthermore used as an example in his Tanakh. The word "authorities" used is from the word "diakonos" a generic noun with either masculine or feminine use -in case there's a question there. If a woman has been given some divine inspiration or prophecy can she not share this? and in that sense be teaching an understanding of to others including men? To say that a woman cannot teach to a man would mean that a woman would have to disobey the commandment to be a light to the nations...as it is our duty and privilege, just as a man, to share the gospel with the nations...which as we know is the whole . Shalom Messimom PS. This is why I originally didn't want to say anything on this thread..I don't know that this issue will be settled until Yeshua comes back and we may approach Him and ask Him how this would be properly settled... |
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Post by Vaneide on Aug 7, 2005 9:45:01 GMT -8
Shalom You all,
I Just want to say a big thank you to everyone that answered this topic, I have learn from everyone. Let me tell you what happened two to me two days ago :
I wrote to a Mesianic congregation Here two weeks ago, asking for some advice. And two days ago the Rabbi from that Synagogue wrote to me saying for me make contact with a Rabbi female that live here in England, I don't want to write her name here, but for may surprase now I know that here in this country there is a Rabbi female. Well, well, what I can say? Alwais G-d surprase me.
Van.
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Post by Yitzchak on Aug 10, 2005 10:28:33 GMT -8
I was going to leave this alone, but feel like I need to share what I think is the Biblical perspective. On the contrary, Deborah leading was an indictment of the male leadership at the time, and not a support of women leaders. It was used as an example in the Tenakh to show the error of the prescribed leadership that HaShem desires. Please see Yeshyahu 3:12. I don't think anyone would question your ability to share revelation, or your understanding of the to people. It is in the context of that sharing that is a problem. It is an authority issue, and the scriptures are quite clear on this subject. Women are not to be in authority over men. There is a difference with sharing the Gospel with the lost, and teaching as a Rabbi. The following is just a short list regarding the male call to leadership. There were no women priests in the Old Testament. Moshe appointed men as the leaders of thousands, hundreds, and tens. Only men were called to appear before HaShem during the Feasts. Only male children received the sign of the covenant. Only men were set apart to lead the tribes Yeshua chose all males None of the prophets of Israel were women. None of the books of the Bible were attributed to women. These are not mere oversites, rather, these are examples for our learning and to show us that authority in Synagogue is an G-d ordained office for qualified men. What I am saying is not to belittle women. G-d has used women mightily in the scriptures, and there are roles which have been set apart for them. Unfortunately, most women are not satisfied with what I believe are the highest callings, which are Wife and Mother. Shalom, Yitzchak |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Aug 10, 2005 16:36:09 GMT -8
Shalom achi Yitzchak,
Well said.
B'shem Yeshua,
Reuel
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Aug 11, 2005 4:48:04 GMT -8
I would have to agree with Yitzchak's position.
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Post by Elishava on Aug 11, 2005 15:48:08 GMT -8
It appears as Messimom said this controversy will continue till Messiah comes... Gen 3:16 Unto the woman He said: 'I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy travail; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.' Now it seems to me, part of this curse is not much of a curse on its face value, for how is it a curse for a women to desire her husband? (I would think most men would greatly appreciate this) However, if it's meant that as "women" we will desire the position of our husbands, and he will rule over us, well that makes it a little different. Meaning it will be our nature from now on to want to rule over husband(s) and men. If this interpretation is true, we as women would want to be the leaders not only of teaching , but of everything!!! You can definitely see that in our society today with the women's movement, the "Hillary" complex etc.... and even in the "Christian" church where it appears women run almost everything.... As Scripture states, maybe if we go back to doing what we know we are suppose to do, with teaching younger women, etc...we will start receiving the rich blessing that Messiah wants to bestow on us for being obedient. Just a thought..... shalom, elishava |
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Post by messimom on Aug 11, 2005 21:44:40 GMT -8
Shalom all, Believe it or not people, I agree with Elishava. I completely believe that part of a woman's curse is to desire the role of her husband. And I don't believe in women being rabbis in an everyday situation. I am simply saying that I do not believe it is against the for a woman to teach . I am not saying that a woman should rise above the men in her congregation and become rabbi, but simply that if a woman has the honor of being able to lead a certain parashat for one reason or another, that isn't wrong. I don't believe Isaiah 3:12 is specifically saying that women ruling is a negative consequence of Israel's disobedience, rather a supernaturally imposed extraordinary situation when the men won't step up and do their jobs...YHVH WILL put a woman in a man's position, in Isaiah the nation is being led by children and women--the two weakest of the three(men, women, children) because there were no men willing(or worthy perhaps). If YHVH was fundamentally opposed to women ever at any point in time teaching , he never would have let Deborah be a judge, let alone lead the people in war. It was a disgrace for Israel that no man would step up in faith and lead the nation...that instead a woman had the honor of doing it. This discussion just gets me fired up. Let me add that in my personal life, I do not aspire to teach to men, and if a woman were teaching on a frequent basis, I wouldn't want to attend that congregation. I just don't see a complete prohibition of women teaching ever. It is all in the interpretation, as we all know, being messianic means going through quite the process of unlearning. I hope I have clarified my position. And although I am not always good at conveying exactly why I believe as I do, I have done a great deal of study on this subject, in part because we had this exact delimma arise in our local congregation. As usual, being of this faith, I am willing to keep an open mind and continue learning, but at this point no one has presented me with any new evidence that refutes what I believe with women teaching. Shalom Messimom |
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Post by Mark on Aug 12, 2005 5:36:18 GMT -8
The desire for one's husband is not the desire for comfort or companionship as we would like to consider it. The same phrase that represents the woman's curse (I don't believe the curse of Adonai as punishment but rather the inevitable consequence of sin) occurs in Genesis 4:7, "sin lies at the door and his desire is for you."
The desire is not for attention or relationship- it is for domination. Think about a few marriages you probably know of and I'm sure that you can see it. We joke (or used to) about who wears the pants in the family, the hen-pecked husband, and so on. The root is that the woman, when she saw that the fruit was pleasant to the eyes and seemed good for food, she placed her evaluation of the circumstances higher than the Word of God. She decided that her experiences were superior to the knowledge of God's Word.
Since this thread began, and I opened my mouth prematurely, I've spent a lot of time in prayer and meditation over this subject. I don't think that whether it is a man or a woman is the true issue. We have to understand that if a man is the leader or the woman is the leader, then the fellowship is following a man or woman... not God. If the issue is who gets to make the decisions or who gets to be in charge, we might as well join the Elks Club. Biblical leadership is simply sifting Scripture and prayerfully applying Adonai's commands to our daily experience. It is not the role of a king or a captain. It is the role of a bond-servant. Can Adonai use either a man or a woman? He can use a donkey!
Who places a person in leadership over the fellowship of Christ? Does the religious community at hand or does Adonai? Shall we discount a teaching because it came from the lips of a woman? Shall we confirm it if it was spoken by a man? Do we follow people or do we follow Adonai? I think the question we are considering is man's thinking, not God's. If we are following Him, we need not worry about the sex of the people He places out front. Sure, we can look through the Scriptures and discover trends and circumstances that support our position or we can pick out passages that justify our position; but the argument is inevitably an argument that is not of God but one that places us under the authority of a human being.
Jos 5:13 And it came to be, when Yehoshua was by Yeriḥo, that he lifted his eyes and looked and saw a Man standing opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Yehoshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”
Jos 5:14 And He said, “No, for I have now come as Captain of the host of יהוה.”
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Post by Mercedes on Aug 12, 2005 9:31:04 GMT -8
I hope all who are reading this thread realize how powerful and spiritual the issue is of dividing male/female flesh is. The very thing which the Lord said must not be divided because they are one.
Yitzaks list does include some errors;
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Circumcision of the heart now includes all of humanity into the Covenant, with the incision made by the Lord's hand and the event of the Brit recorded in the scroll in heaven. Female prophetesses were around during Israel's time, maybe the remark is to state that none were "Notable."
This calling by me alone will only produce 50% of the appointed calling. Only my husband fulfills the other half as Husband and Father.
What Yitzchak is attributing as sin to me is my striving for the positions of Deaconess, Prophetess and Apostleship that Paul himself anointed women to these positions and places the order of authority in 1Corin 12: 28 And God placed some in the Ekklesia: FIRSTLY Apostles, SECONDLY Prophets, THIRDLY Teachers"
Then the apostle encourages us to 31 Zealously strife after the better gifts. And when we do we are cruelly persecuted. What does the word persecuted mean? "to be pushed out."
But blessed are we because we are persecuted and counted as the least and the last!
Lastly regarding the Priesthood;
I will share with you a great revelation, the Priesthood began in Num 3:12 "Be hold I have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel in place of every firstborn opening the womb among the children of Israel."
Ex 13:1 "Consecrate all the firstborn to me, the first birth from every womb among the children of Israel whether of man or beast, it is mine"
The original priesthood was to be comprised of all the firstborns of all the tribes whether male or female, whoever first opened the womb. The Levites were taken in their stead for a time. Now that the everlasting kingdom is being built the original appointment of the Firstborn to fulfill the office of Royal Priesthood is now required Rev1:6 "He loves us and has washed away our sins with his blood and made us a KINGDOM of PRIESTS to serve his God and Father."
Mercedes
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Post by Yitzchak on Aug 12, 2005 10:52:08 GMT -8
I hope all who are reading this thread realize how powerful and spiritual the issue is of dividing male/female flesh is. The very thing which the Lord said must not be divided because they are one. Yitzaks list does include some errors; . First of all, we were speaking about the Tenakh. G-d does not change, and the fact remains that the sign of the covenant was made with the male child. |
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Post by Blake on Aug 16, 2005 8:40:49 GMT -8
The Talmud gives prophet status to the following seven women; Sarah, Miriam, Devorah, Hannah (mother of the prophet Samuel), Abigail (a wife of King David), Huldah (from the time of Jeremiah), and Esther.
There were, of course, other women who functioned as prophets, and the last prophet mentioned in the Bible, Noahdiah (Nehemiah 6:14) was a woman.
If a woman can be a prophet, why not a Rabbi?
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Post by Yitzchak on Aug 16, 2005 19:23:54 GMT -8
The Talmud gives prophet status to the following seven women; Sarah, Miriam, Devorah, Hannah (mother of the prophet Samuel), Abigail (a wife of King David), Huldah (from the time of Jeremiah), and Esther. There were, of course, other women who functioned as prophets, and the last prophet mentioned in the Bible, Noahdiah (Nehemiah 6:14) was a woman. If a woman can be a prophet, why not a Rabbi? First of all, many of the women you list were submitted to male leadership. Remember that Miriam suffered from Tzaraat due to here speaking ill of the leadership of her younger brother Moshe. Speaking as a prophet, and bringing forth the Word of HaShem is not the same thing as having responsibility for the spiritual welfare of other men and women. The scriptures are clear regarding the structure of G-d's government. Shalom, Yitzchak |
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RoRK
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Post by RoRK on Aug 17, 2005 5:22:43 GMT -8
Shalom
I do not see/read and therefore understand why women are not allowed to be rabbis.
There is no direct trust-worthy Scriptural text to support such a teaching.
WItohut such a clear-cut teaching, I would assume that we do as we have to - to the extent that should a woman seem right for the post, then let her be.
A woman is as just in YHWH's eyes as a man. If man was made in His likeness and woman was made from man, then shouldn't women who are made from man share many similarities to Him?
At the end of the day, we must always look to the two main commandments and use them as a guiding light and testamony to YHWH's teachings. If to put women down is against these two commandments then it is wrong to put women down. A neighbour can be man or woman or even child.
To put someone down based on race and/or sex; to me is agianst YHWH's greatest teaching.
As long as someone is a child of YHWH, he or she is welcomed to preach His Teachings/Ways.
The road to the Kingdom of Heaven is narrow. Why make it more difficult by preventing honest, knowledgeable, sincere children of YHWH to teach us.
If a woman Judge and Prophetess' existed before, why should we think that they shouldn't exist now?
Are we really better off now than then? Let YHWH do his work and we do ours.
Even the recent Gaza withdrawal. I can understand the uproar although I think we should let YHWH do his work and we do ours.
Should we really think that doing something now can flow the tide that has been brewing for thousands of years.
YHWH will always come true. The children of Israel will again rule the land that they were promised. His promise never falls short.
Only our expectations and understanding do.
If you don't trust Sharon or Bush, at least trust YHWH. My thinking is that the Gaza withdrawal will inevitably lead to a greater Israel.
They are like birth pangs. Those who see it through are duly rewarded. YHWH rules. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Shalom.
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Post by Yitzchak on Aug 17, 2005 20:23:23 GMT -8
All of the previous scriptures and examples posted earlier on this subject present sufficient evidence for why a woman should not be in authority over men. This is what a rabbi does as the leader of a congregation. How is it that you do not see clear cut teaching on this? Furthermore, where does anybody put women, or any woman here down simply by stating what they believe to be biblical truth from the ? How do you equate "Loving one's neighbor", having anything to do with the hierarchy of G-d's government as established in His Holy scriptures? I don't mind somebody disagreeing with me, and I don't mind someone making a biblical argument to show me I am wrong, but simply stating your opinion doesn't make something so. We must look to as our guide, and plumb line, and it is clear, as is the Brit Chadasha, which I consider to be as much as the Tenakh, that leadership is a male role. Shalom, Yitzchak |
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RoRK
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Post by RoRK on Aug 19, 2005 8:26:48 GMT -8
Fact is that we have Esther, Ruth and Deborah in the Bible. Deborah has authority over men as well as women.
The issue is not as clear cut as you make it seem to be.
The issue is a non-issue as far as I see it. Women, men, children are all God's children and as and when HE wants to, he can use any of His creation to have authority over his other children.
To think otherwise is human folly. Nothing more, nothing less. God has shown us many things through His teachings and His ways. To know of Deborah and yet deny that women can have and are allowed to have authority over men and women is beyond my understanding.
Shalom
RoRK
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, and making sure it was properly carried out, He never would have allowed the situation to arise, and furthermore used as an example in his Tanakh. 
