Can a woman be a rabbi

[Vaneide]

mark said:

Hi Vaneide,

I suppose I am responding a broader question than inquiry; but to more of the generic understanding that womens' roles have changed in the rest of the world and so should also change in the body of Messiah. I apologize for not being clear.

What I would suggest is that women have always held a role of respect and dignity in Adonai's method of governing and management. Yet, that role does not replace nor usurp the position that is designated as a male role.

We must not confuse the role of prophet with the role of rabbi. I once described "prophet" as when God steps into someone's shoes to step on someone else's toes. It is not a role of authority, it is the role of a messenger. There are several prophetesses mentioned throughout Scripture. Yet, Deborah didn't replace Barak. She didn't tell him to stay home; but she did go with him. It is a stretch to use this passage to suggest that she took charge.

Ok Mark, thanks to explaining. I think Deborah was incharge, the bible says that she was leading Israel at the time. Judges 4:4. Maybe I am wrong, but I can see that she was a authority of Israel in that time:
She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites came to her to have their disputes decided. 4:5. And also, she was spiritualy incharge:
She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, The Lord, the God of Isarel, commands you: Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead the way to Mount Tabor. 4:6.

Vaneide.

[Mercedes]

Mark wrote:

We must not confuse the role of prophet with the role of rabbi. I once described "prophet" as when God steps into someone's shoes to step on someone else's toes. It is not a role of authority, it is the role of a messenger.

You mention that a prophet is not in a position of authority but offer no scriptural reference to support your position other than quoting yourself.
Paul states in 1 Corinth12:28 "God placed some in the congregation, FIRSTLY apostles, SECONDLY prophets, THIRDLY teachers, then gifts of healing, helps, governings....."
The Greek word for Rabbi is NOMO (law) DIDASKALO (teacher) "teacher of the Law". Women are in fact not permitted to hold this position because a rabbi is much like a civil servant in that he is "on call" night and day for the sick, elderly, dying and marrying. This "on call" status is ill suited for a woman and her home, children and grandchildren. We have been granted status as prophetess and thereby outrank teachers and healers in order of authority as appointed by Paul.
Lastly he encourages us to 1Corinth 12:31 "Zealously strive after the better gifts"

Maybe Reuel or Netzar can cite the scripture that the apostle was referencing from the in Rork's quote of:

1 Corinthians 14 They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says

Mercedes

[Mark]

Vaneide and Mercedes,

I have spoken without knowledge. I stand corrected. Please accept my apologies.

These links were helpful for me to gain a better insight on this subject:

www.haydid.org/update613a.htm

www.xenos.org/teachings/nt/romans/gary/rom16-1.htm

jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/2287.htm

[Vaneide]

Shalom Mark,

Don't worry about that, you are a humble man, G-d Bless you and your family in everything.

Vaneide.

[Mercedes]

Shalom Mark,

Peace,
Those were some good links that your study provided. I thought the "Haydid" link was a wonderful study.

Peace and blessings,
Mercedes

[Mercedes]

One more little tid bit.
In Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, noted among the apostles"

The name Junias is masculine but in all the original Greek is recorded as feminine, Junia. She was always feminine until the 12th century when she is first recorded as a male by one of the Popes.

:)Mercedes

[Mark]

Yes, Mercedes. I believe I read that though I'm not sure it was in one of the three links I posted. Thanks for sharing.

We all who have been taught seem to be in a continual state of un-learning. Both Jews and church-goers have been fed the traditions of men in replacement of the true message(s) of Scripture. I continue to praise Adonai (with some shigrin) that He chooses to remind me that I haven't forgotten all that I need to forget, nor learned all that I need to learn. I truly appreciate your grace and willingness to persevere- so that we may all grow in grace and in the knowledge of Him.

[RoRK]

Was my previous post too difficult for comments to come forth? Does Paul knowwhat it is that he is talking about? Or is it the case that his words are again too difficult to understand. But aren't his word Scripture? And Scripture shouldn't be too difficult, no?


I am curious why no one has brought up the following passage.

1 Corinthians 14
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Comments?

[messimom]

My first thought was that I wanted to stay far away from this briar patch. It is a long argued issue and I didn't want to come into every issue posted with horns blowing all cylinders going....so I didn't want to really say much, but if the included teaching excerpt helps to clarify (at least my belief) any of this issue then I submit it.

I have pasted this excerpt from a teaching by Bruce Knight, teaching elder at Avdey Chaya, which I believe has a good handle on this issue. The teaching itself is 18 pages long but very good. If people would like to read the whole teaching I can email it to you or if there is a way to post it here let me know. In the end of it, I believe that women are allowed to teach and have authority but there are rules and regulations as with everything YHVH has set forth for us.

THE BIG TWO ANTI-WOMEN TEACHING MEN BIBLICAL VERSES DEBUNKED
1 Timothy 2:11-12 Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 11
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 12
The first thing we need to consider, when we get to these couple of passages, that at
first blush seem to say something different from the other things we have seen in Scripture about
women teaching men, is that Rabbi Shaul is not a schizophrenic. Well to be completely truthful I
don’t know his personal medical condition, but I do know that YHWH isn’t a schizophrenic and
would not have anyone, no matter their personal medical condition, to write things that contradict.
Rabbi Shaul has already by two or more witnessing passages told us women in congregations, pray,
prophesy, speak in tongues and so forth. Plus he championed such women as
Phoebe, Junia, Priscilla among others. Never rebuked the four virgin daughters of Philip the
evangelist for being prophetesses. And we know Rabbi Shaul had no problem in rebuking people
even Peter in front of everyone.
Also these couple of passages, again seemed to fly in the face of all the things the things we
have learned about this subject from Genesis through the rest of the BRIT HADASHA including
what Yeshua said and did about and with women. So it is easy to know and understand that they
are not being interpreted by many people correctly.
We will look at the underlying Greek to see if the translation meets the Grammatical
Principle.
QUIETLY -2271> (hesuchia) meaning: stillness Origin: from 2272 Usage:
quiet(2), quiet fashion(1), quietly(1). 2272> (hesuchios) meaning: tranquil
RECEIVE INSTRUCTION - 3129> (manthano) meaning: to learn
WITH ENTIRE - 3956> (pas) Meaning: all, every
SUBMISSIVENESS - <5292> (hupotage) Meaning: subjection Origin: from
5293 - 5293> (hupotasso) meaning: to place or rank under, to subject, mid. to
obey origin: from 5259 and 5021 - <5259> (hupo)meaning: by, under - 5021>
(tasso) meaning: to draw up in order, arrange
NOT ALLOW- 2010> (epitrepo)meaning: to turn to, entrust, hence to permit
WOMAN - 1135> (gune) meaning: a woman origin: prob. from the same as 1096
Usage: bride(m)(1), wife(72), wife's(1), wives(11), woman(95), woman's(1), women(33).
1096> (ginomai) meaning: to come into being, to happen, to become
TO TEACH - 1321> (didasko) meaning: to teach Origin: a redupl., caus. form of dao (to learn)
EXERCISE AUTHORITY - 831> (authenteo) meaning: to govern, exercise
authority origin: from 846 and hentes (one who acts on his own authority)
MAN - 435> (aner) meaning: a man origin: a prim. word Usage: brethren*(13),
gentlemen(1), husband(39), husbands(13), man(69), Man(2), man's(2),men(70),
virgin*(m)(1)
We now have looked at the under lying text for this passage, but before we do anything with
it let us invoke the second principle of hermeneutics, The Contextual Principle. We need to look at
the theme of the whole area in which a verse appears. The verse is in context with the paragraph,
which itself is in context with the chapter, and that with the book and so forth. We can not let our
interpretation of a verse be out of context with the rest of the verses surrounding it.
So what is the theme of the text surrounding verses 11 & 12?
1 Timothy 2:1-2 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and
thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, in order that 2
we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
The theme or topic then of this section is “living a peaceful life of integrity under proper or
right order of authority”. That we need to understand the right order of authority so that we can do
that. So with that context of the right order of authority and having looked at the underlying Greek
we can see some interesting things about this passage. It is highly possible and most probable that
the verse should be translated this way:
“Let a wife quietly learn with subjection of proper order. I do not permit a {wife to teach
usurping authority over their husbands} or {a woman to teach in a way to dominate or take control
of a man} but to exist quitely.”
Said this way then a couple of things happen. One, it leads perfectly into the next verse where
Rabbi Shaul helps clarify the proper spiritual order of man and wife, male and female. Two it now
fits in with the theme of this chapter that of proper order because it is telling us women or wives are
not to dominate or control men or husbands, with their teaching because women are not to have men
disciples. .Women discipliningmen is not YHWH’s proper order. But it is not prohibiting women
from teaching men just not doing it in a way that would usurp their spiritual authority as the head
of their household. Rabbi Shaul teaches this proper order of YHWH, Yeshua, husband, wife,
children more in depth in Ephesians 5.
1 Corinthians 14:34 Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not 34
permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says. And if they desire 35
to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak
in church.
Speak - 2980 (laleo) meaning: to talk origin: from lalos (talkative).
First, again the context of this passage is orderly worship or conduct in the assembly.
1 Corinthians 14:26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one 26
has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be
done for edification. 1 Corinthians 14:33 for YHWH is not an Elohim of confusion but of peace, 33
as in all the congregations of the saints. 1 Corinthians 14:40 But let all things be done properly 40
and in an orderly manner.
The congregation at Corinth had problems [see 1 Corinthians 1:10] when you read this book
and the next one you easily understand that. Rabbi Shaul was writing to them answers to a group of
questions theymay have asked him and/or problem he and others had observed. As many say too bad
we don’t have the questions just the answers. But from this section we can see that there was
confusion going on in the assembly as theymet. Every one trying to use their gifts at the same time
and so forth. Obliviously there was a problem with many of the women talking among themselves
adding to that confusion and Rabbi Shaul is saying to all as well as to them Let’s keep in mind that
we are gathered to gather to worship YHWH so use your gift in an orderly fashion and you women
who are talking be quite so all can hear and understand. If you need or desire further instruction on
anything don’t talk among yourselves about it ask your husbands when you get home to explain it
to you.
2 Peter 3:15-16 and regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our 15 beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, 16 speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
We have already seen women who taught and held high office in the congregations. But here
is another case of a women teaching men.
Acts 18:26 and he [Apollos] began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when 26
Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of YHWH more
accurately.
Here we see a husband and wife team Priscilla and Aquila teaching Apollos, an Alexandrian
Jew, the [way of YHWH] with exactness. Some people so bent on believing women can’t
teach men an especially that they can’t teach them have said that Priscilla could be a man’s
name as well as a woman’s name. The is on them because they didn’t read their bibles very
closely or not at all or just chose to disregard the rest of chapter 18 here in Acts . Verse 2 of 18 says
this:.
Acts 18:2 And he found a certain Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, having recently 2
come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave
Rome. He came to them,
Acts 18:18 And Paul, having remained many days longer, took leave of the brethren and 18
put out to sea for Syria, and with him were Priscilla and Aquila. In Cenchrea he had his hair cut,
for he was keeping a vow.
Another section from Rabbi Shaul about the body, everyone teaching each other.
Colossians 3:15-16 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you 15
were called in one body; and be thankful. Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing
with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 16
Look at this section from verse one on down. The context theme is our new life in Messiah,
Not a male’s life in Messiah but every believer’s life in Yeshua our Messiah. And here we see that
we are to teach and exhort one another. Male or female.

Shalom,

Messimom

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I believe the above study is wishful thinking and not one really supported by scripture or history.

I do agree with the passage RoRK outlined. I reserve the right to be wrong, but I believe the key is that the context of this passage is in regards to a holy convocation in which the women are instructed to be silent and not disrupt a service/meeting. If they are confused or have questions, they should ask their husbands at home as the husband is responsible for teaching his wife and family…not the other way around. This also seems to discourage women being rabbis because the men are responsible for teaching their wives. Keep in mind the context is teaching. Therefore, this passage is not saying that they may not prophesy, pray, or share testimonies. Although, there is instruction to govern this as well.

Within this context of a congregational set-apart meeting such as Shabbat or one of the high holy days, the role of a woman is not and was not one of a congregational teacher. Not one passage in scripture (that I am aware of) presents a woman in this role. Not one historical reference save the exception of modern day (at least that I am aware of), has ever shown a woman holding the position of Rabbi within a synagogue. Women rabbis have not been the norm in the structure of the Kingdom of Heaven and I believe this has been according to the good and perfect will of Adonai. If this was not His will, I believe he would have changed it. I believe that the references given thus far (supposedly supporting women as Rabbis) do not really address the congregational setting for the set-apart meetings. It is my belief that the passages dealing with women prophetesses, judge (1) and other possible references given thus far are outside of this context. I believe –this- is the crux of the issue.

We will also do well to note that according to , the G’d ordained teachers of the assembly of Israel were the L’vi’im (Levites), the heads of the specific tribes in Israel, the officers within your gates, and the Fathers of each individual family which where almost always men (Dev.17:9-12,Vay.10:8-11). Was this just coincidence, or was it the good and perfect will of Almighty G’d? It was the men whom where responsible for going up to the three pilgrimage feasts (high holy days)…not the women. I believe that this was because it was the men whom were responsible to be the leaders and teachers of Israel.

Do we have one instance of a book in the Bible in which we find our holy script that is written by a female? If not…why not? This is where we derive our teaching from, is it not? Is the picture becoming clearer? If it was indeed the good and perfect will of our Master, Yeshua our Messiah, for women to be Rabbis and teachers over the assembly…would he not have selected at least one of the twelve Talmidim (Disciples) to be a woman…maybe even two?

Forgive me for being blunt, but if a woman whom wishes to take on this role of Rabbi and has not first mastered the instruction found in the following passage…
"and that older women likewise be reverent in behavior, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good; that they may train the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sober minded, chaste, workers at home, kind, being in subjection to their own husbands, that G-d's word may not be blasphemed."
- Tit.2:3-5

If they have not yet mastered and produced fruit in this area…they have no business even thinking of assuming the role predominately given to man. The term “Rabbi” has always held with it authority over the congregation…something a woman is not permitted to take upon herself…it does not just mean teacher as there is other Hebrew words for this…such as the Hebrew word “moriah”. The term “Rabbi” is commonly understood to simply mean “teacher”, but it more accurately means “my master”. Do you really expect men within a congregational setting to go up to a woman and address them as “my master”? Let no one be deceived, a Rabbi is not only a teacher but a leader having authority over the congregation. We can see in the following passage that the two go hand in hand…

“ But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”
- 2Ti 2:12

I believe that if we step back and bring the whole of scripture and history into focus…the truth will make itself clear…the picture painted will become evident.

Shalom aleychem chaverim,

Reuel

[messimom]

"I believe the above study is wishful thinking and not one really supported by scripture or history."

Shalom Reuel,

You have not read the whole study(to my knowledge), therefore you cannot call it one thing or another. I am not saying that after having read the study in its entirety you will not still disagree--which is fine. Please just don't make the mistake of jumping to conclusions here.

Shalom

Messimom

[q27]

Shalom All

Interesting how any subject involving the role of women ignites such passion.

For my part - I am unaware of any passage in the strictly forbidding women from taking any part in leadership of some form. (But, as always, I'm open to correction).

On the other hand - there does seem to be a 'principle' that would suggest that for women to take on such a role is not to be encouraged.

'Teaching' can mean different things to different people at different times - So, I'm not sure if the term here with the context of this discussion is universally defined - in other words, the discussion could be about different things depending at what the writer believes they mean by 'teaching'.

I have heard and read a number of exegesis on the relevant passages but I always seem to come away with the impression that these passages are 'tryhards' - they are trying too hard to prove the opposite of what the Teachings say.

So, unless someone can point to a definitive text that states women cannot do certain things - then I think I will have to settle for the alternative - that women are NOT debarred from taking on important teaching roles.

Shalom

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom Reuel,

You have not read the whole study(to my knowledge), therefore you cannot call it one thing or another. I am not saying that after having read the study in its entirety you will not still disagree--which is fine. Please just don't make the mistake of jumping to conclusions here.

Shalom

Messimom

Shalom Messimom,

This is just my conclusion of what I have read from what you posted on the forum.

So, unless someone can point to a definitive text that states women cannot do certain things - then I think I will have to settle for the alternative - that women are NOT debarred from taking on important teaching roles.

According to the , those whom where in authority in Israel are also those whom are responsible for teaching Israel about (Dev.17:9-12,Vay.10:8-11). And, these whom where in authority were G’d appointed men. Also, you may want to address the thoughts in my previous posts. I believe this is an important issue as confusion of one’s role in the Kingdom of Heaven causes chaos. In other words, if women are called to do something other than becoming a Rabbi, and they are seeking other roles in which they are not specifically called to, then a position is not being filled which can only be fulfilled by a woman. The result is that the Kingdom Of Heaven suffers. There are certain roles that men are not meant to fulfill that are only meant for women. But, you don’t see men clamoring to take on these roles. For instance, it is not my role to go into another man’s home and teach young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sober minded, chaste, workers at home, kind, being in subjection to their own husbands. This is the G’d ordained position of a mature godly woman.

I believe that we have severe shortage of mature woman in Messiah whom are not taking - Tit.2:3-5 seriously. If woman that want to teach men abandon what they are actually commanded to do for a role that traditionally and scripturally doesn’t even belong to them, what does that say about their true motivation? I also believe that if they actually do what is commanded of them…they will not have time to take on a position that has been predominately designated for men. I believe one of the reasons that Men are Rabbis is because they are to help train up other men to teach their wives and children. Men are better teachers of men than woman are of men. Men relate better to other men. There are many other reasons. Not to mention all the other pitfalls involved in women consistently teaching men over long involved periods of time. It is not good for women to spend much time with men alone or otherwise as these men are sitting at their feet being taught . This is just common sense. Woman are better equipped to teach other women. This is why we see the passage in Tit.2:3-5. These are just my thoughts on the issue, but I would hope that I would inspire women whom wish to be more active in a teaching ministry to get their priorities straight and fulfill the roles actually given to them.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[q27]

Shalom Reuel

I do not have any particular problem with the thrust of your argument - as I said - the generalised message from the Bible is that women are not encouraged to adopt a teaching role.

However I still don't see where the actually forbids women teaching - and Dev.17:9-12,Vay.10:8-11 are not helpful.

[Bat Yosef]

The whole idea here in scripture is for the woman not to take over the man's role of authority. Personally, I don't have a problem with women as ministers but I DO have a problem with women as pastors. I don't have a problem with women as teachers as long as they are not trying to adopt a more masculine role of teaching to the men. If a woman is a minister or teacher under the authority and covering of her pastor / rabbi and her husband, I do not believe it is wrong for the woman to fill either of these callings. I do also believe that the woman in these positions must bear the responsibility to make sure her husband and pastor / rabbi knows what she is teaching and if they have a problem with it, to refrain.