Jesus, Yeshua, Yohshua

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

So, those that take the gospel to another land do it in vain unless they teach them hebrew first? They can't speak to them in their own language?

Not at all. A missionary can speak the people's language, but maintain a personal name while doing so. There are 6,800 known languages. Obviously, we do not need to use a different name for Messiah for each language. People will take the name you give them, they do not need to know Hebrew to do this. Unfortunately, the name that is being taken is not the actual name of Messiah. If you have a choice to teach someone the name of Messiah whom has never heard it before, which will you use; "Yeshua" or "Jesus"? Do you teach them the error or the truth?...that is the question.

Shalom in Yeshua,

Reuel

[Todah Yeshua]

I just want to say that I love you all.

Peace and blessings

[Chizuk Emunah]

I think of it this way:
When I am speaking with people who are familiar with Hebrew, I use Hebrew. When I am speaking with people who are unfamiliar with Hebrew, I use terms they are familiar with.

Point being, while it is better to use the proper names and pronunciation of things pertaining to HaShem, it is not necessarily wrong to use terms that most people are familiar with.

The main goal is to get the message of observance across to our Christian friends, and the message of Messiah to our Jewish friends.

[jeremiel]

If YHWH is ussually written YHWH in modern English, why is it that the "Salvation of YAH" is often rendered as Yeshua and not rendered as Yeshua?

Seems to me, to be consistent with rendering Christ's as Yeshua, then we would in turn render YHWH in modern English as YEHWEH instead of YHWH.

Did I make sence?

I perfer, sence we read that Christ is the Salvation of YAH, then the name of Christ would then be rendered as YAH-shua or simply Yeshua and not Yeshua.

Do you see what I am saying?


Shalom,

Jeremiel

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

The main goal is to get the message of observance across to our Christian friends, and the message of Messiah to our Jewish friends.

Agreed

Shalom and welcome Jeremiel!

I prefer, since we read that Christ is the Salvation of YAH, then the name of Christ would then be rendered as YAH-shua or simply Yeshua and not Yeshua.

Yes, I am aware of this interpretation of Messiah's name. I don't necessarily have a problem with it accept for it seems to be more a product of one's theology as we have no example in scripture of Messiah's name written this way. If one insists on having "Yah" connected with Messiah's name, He should be referred to as the Yeshua of Yah. The reason being; Yeshua means salvation. Yeshua to my knowledge does not translate to mean salvation. The Hebrew word for salvation is not spelled the same way as the those whom spell "Yeshua" in Hebrew.

So, by inserting the "ah" in the beginning of Messiah's name, you take out the meaning of salvation. Even the primitive root for salvation, "yâsha‛" does not employ the Hebrew character "Hey" which we find in the name of the Father (Yod, Hey, Vav, Hey). Again, I believe the spelling "Yeshua" is product of the Holy Namer movement and not so much that of scripture. In fact, we find that on the ossuary (bone box) of Yeshua the Messiah's brother (Yaakov/James) we find that Messiah's name is spelled with the Hebrew characters "Yod", "Shin", "Vav/Shureq", "Ayin" which spells, "Yeshua". Take a look...

For anyone whom can read Hebrew there is no question how Messiah's name is spelled.

The phrase etched on the side of this ossuary says, "Ya'akov, son of Yoseph, brother of Yeshua". This is what the family and friends whom buried Yeshua's brother knew as the name of Messiah. We also see this rendering in the known Semitic texts of the Brit Chadashah (New Test.). In other words, there is -no- evidence at all that supports the spelling, "Yeshua". But, I do not judge those whom feel convicted to pronounce Messiah's name this way. And, I reserve the right to be wrong

Shalom Chaverim
(Peace friends),

Reuel

[jeremiel]

Reuel, Isn't it true that in the Hebrew language there is no Vowels like we have in English? or have I heard wrong.

And If there are no Vowels, then who knows if Yeshua is to have an 'E' there?

I say that if Christ's name has been rendered Yeshua with the Vowel 'E' in place and is written that way in the Greek New Testament manuscript copies, and if there is an 'E' Vowel on the ossuary, then that would end the debate in my mind.

But does it do so?

Shalom

[Chizuk Emunah]

Isn't it true that in the Hebrew language there is no Vowels like we have in English? or have I heard wrong.

And If there are no Vowels, then who knows if Yeshua is to have an 'E' there?

I say that if Christ's name has been rendered Yeshua with the Vowel 'E' in place and is written that way in the Greek New Testament manuscript copies, and if there is an 'E' Vowel on the ossuary, then that would end the debate in my mind.

But does it do so?

Shalom Jeremiel. I know you addressed this question to Reuel, but I though I'd go ahead and jump in.

It is not true that there are no vowels in Hebrew. However, it is true that they are not used in the written text in the Scriptures. The reason being is that the knowledge of the correct pronunciations was already known.

During the ninth and tenth centuries CE, the Masorites, Jewish scholars in Tiberias, perfected a system of points or nikkud for vowel notation and added it to the received consonantal text. The vowel points were added to ensure proper interpretation and reading of Hebrew Scripture, and are known as the Masoretic or Tiberian vowel points. This point system was added without altering the spacing of the text. It is the Masoretic Hebrew text that is available to us today.

Now as for Yeshua's name itself:
The hebrew letters that spell out his name are: yod, shin, vav, ayin. The vowels that accompany it are: sheva (under the yod), sureq (behind the vav) and patach (under the ayin). When put together, they form the sound ye sh oo ah. One thing to note however, is that the "e" sound is very short. The best way of translating this into English is to write "Yeshua" without the "e."
Now this also brings up another interesting issue: because of the lack of a "hey" in Messiah's name, we can ascertain that the pronunciation that's been passed down to us is correct.

[jeremiel]

Thanks for that.

So there is no basis for the spelling of Yeshua then. Is that correct?

And if so then the correct pronuciation and thus spelling would be Yeshua, or with the very short 'E' vowel sound point that was put into the massoretic text it would be Yeshua.

Also, is the 'e' vowel point seen on the ossuary?


Shalom

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Also, is the 'e' vowel point seen on the ossuary?

There are no vowel points on the ossury. So, it would be hard to tell if there was a "sheva" or a "segol" making the brief pronunciation of the "Yod" or the "e" sound as in the word "yellow". Regardless, the usage of a "sheva" or a "segol" would not make a noticable difference when pronouncing the name of Messiah.

So there is no basis for the spelling of Yeshua then. Is that correct?

The absence of the "Hey" takes the wind out of the proposed rendering of "Yeshua". I would say that there is no historical basis, but one could from their own personal theology probably find a basis.

Shalom,

Reuel

[Chizuk Emunah]

So there is no basis for the spelling of Yeshua then. Is that correct?

That's correct. If there were a "hey" in Messiah's name, then that would change the pronunciation to Yeshua. But like I said, that letter is not in any of ancient texts available to us today.

[jeremiel]

Thanks for all the info on this subject.

[Rick]

Shabbot Shalom Chaverim.
I believe it is very important to use the correct pronunciation of the 'names' of G-d. I feel the following scriptures make this clear:

Act 4:10-12 let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of Yisra’ĕl, that in the Name of יהושע Messiah of Natsareth, whom you impaled, whom Elohim raised from the dead, by Him this one stands before you, healthy. “This is ‘the stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’

“Andthere is no deliverance in anyone else, for there is no other Name under the heaven given among men by which we need to be saved.”

If there is "no other name Given", should we not pronounce or "call upon the name" correctly?

Act 2:21 "'AND IT SHALL BE THAT ALL WHO CALL ON THE NAME OF ADONAI SHALL BE SAVED.'

I do agree that Hashem knows "Who we mean", but I believe we should still be as correct as we are able when we "call or name the Name".

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of G-d stands, having this seal, "ADONAI KNOWS THOSE WHO ARE HIS," and let everyone who names the name of the L-rd abstain from unrighteousness.

It is my belief that we are to be as "literal" as possible in regards to the "Word" YHVH has given us. As there are levels of interpretation, in most all disciplines, the first is literal, and all others follow in their respective orders when the first obviously does not apply.

Veyahaftah et Adonai Yeshua elohecha, vechol levavcha.
(And you shall love the L-rd Yeshua your G-d with all your heart.)
Rick

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

It is my belief that we are to be as "literal" as possible in regards to the "Word" YHVH has given us. As there are levels of interpretation, in most all disciplines, the first is literal, and all others follow in their respective orders when the first obviously does not apply.

Yes, but which document are you getting your literal spelling of "Yeshua"?

Shalom brother,

Reuel

[Rick]

I personally feel that Yeshua or Yeshua are proper as they transliterate best the proper pronunciation. Many of the "restored name and/or messianic" versions have different spellings. When I have used other "spellings" in a post, it is what was in the particular version used for reference, and does not reflect how I personally spell it. As stated above I use Yeshua or Yeshua.

In my previous post I quoted the HNV, MRC, and "Scriptures". I also at times refer to (the out of print)"Restored KJV", HRV, and (for some OT verses) JPS Tanakh.
My statement on being "literal" is two fold; in interpretation AND pronunciation, to the best of our ability considering the variation that exists among "translations".

As I stated previously, if we 'call upon the Name of the L-rd", I think we should at least use the 'right' name (I don't think "Jesus" or "Joshua" is 'right') and pronounce it correctly.

I was not being critical of any one else's take on the subject, I was simply offering my viewpoint.
I may not have contributed much more than my own views, but that was all I intended.

Shalom in the name of Yeshua
Rick

[The 614th Mitzvot]

Wow. I have learned a bit about this Kadosh shem (holy name). I will probably begin spelling it yod, shin, vav, ayin. The other thing is I really don't want to identify with someone who would say that the name is more important than the belief. I am not saying anyone here is doing this, but just this week I have met someone like that and it is scairy. So Yeshua HaMoshiach is Moshiach Now!