|
|
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jan 20, 2006 11:58:51 GMT -8
I am in agreement. I just think that when someone comes up with an interpretation like this and it has never been a recorded practice, and is questionable scripturaly, it deserves a little accountability. I think that when people are relatively new to  observance, they should avoid making up new theories and practices.... At the very least, put it on the shelf until you have many years of experience and study under your belt before you suddenly start putting it into practice and telling others about it. I believe if people where more cautious before employing totally new practices and theories which have never been practiced or confirmed in history, or by credible scholars....many unbiblical practices would not see the light of day. The problem is that when people rashly take hold of something like this, it is hard to admit they are wrong later because of pride...This is why Adonai has set up well learned teachers in the body of Messiah to assist new believers, keepers, and those whom have less experience in observance. I also feel that some people just feel like they have to be more set-apart and different than the next person just for the sake of having their own way of doing things. Some people are so anti-comformity that if it has always been done one way...to them, it simply must be done differently for the sake of being different. Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
|
|
|
Post by Yahs_child on Jan 30, 2006 0:03:42 GMT -8
Hello. I am new here and also new to . I read somewhere[?] that women should also do this? Is it just for men? I have never seen any women do this. Shalom Vickie |
|
|
|
Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jan 30, 2006 10:11:37 GMT -8
Shalom Vickie,
While women are permitted to wear tzitziyot and tefillin (using David's wife Michal as an example), the general consenus is that these are mitzvot that only men are obligated to fulfill. The reason for this is that a women's first and foremost priority in Judaism is the home. All else is secondary (except for worship of HaShem of course). If a woman were to wear these items, she may end up neglecting her other responsibilities.
Hope that helps.
|
|
|
|
Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Feb 8, 2006 13:27:30 GMT -8
Not only that, but it is rude for one to overdue another. For instance, no one walks into a restuarant and shows the chef how to cook unless one is notable enough to do so. A woman who wears tefillin and tzitzit is supposed to be immersed in mitzvot enough that she exceeds the mitzvot she needs to fulfill in her own life. If a woman is raising a family (husband and children) properly, doing tikkun chatzot, davening 3 times a day, housing and caring for the impoverished, studies tanakh, b'rit chadasha, halacha, and their commentaries DAILY and is being a true servant of Hashem, then after some time of doing this she may begin wearing tefillin and tzitzit.
But once again I don't make the rules, this is just my opinion.
|
|
|
|
Post by messimom on Feb 9, 2006 10:56:38 GMT -8
614th Mitzvot said: YHVH said: It is common knowledge that when YHVH gave the commandments to Moses he presented them to the people of Israel. All of the people of Israel, women and children included. Does this mean by your interpretation of this small verse in that after men have their monthly menstruation, they need to Niddah? Obviously not, that's obsurd! Yet you say, that when a woman chooses to wear tassles, she needs to already excell at her "assigned duties" before she can even think about taking on tzittzit? Not even Hashem requires so much. YHVH never said, get good at all of my commandments then you earn the ability to wear the tzittzit-- they are not Boy Scout badges. You wear them so that you may remember YHVH's rules, remember who it is who took you out of Egypt, that then you may be able to follow . Would you rather that your wife not also get a daily reminder to follow the commandments? If it is assumed for men that in verse 40 when it says "remember and do all my commmandments" that it is only referencing applicable commandments for the men, then why isn't that same standard applied to the women? How about the understanding of this command that a man should remember to look upon his tzittzit and remember all the commandments which apply to him, and a woman should look upon her tzittzit, and it will help her to remember all the commands which apply to her. That then, leaves only to figure out which commands apply to each/both. I will never need worry about being circumcized, and you will never need worry about cleansing yourself after childbirth. I will never understand this double standard of men. Shalom Messimom |
|
|
|
Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Feb 9, 2006 14:29:00 GMT -8
Some men go to a mikveh every morning, some before shabbat, some only before holidays, and somenever. Visiting a mikveh is not essential to fulfilling , but it is a good thing. Now if a man visits a mikveh daily, but does pray, then visitng the mikveh has taken the time that would be used for prayer. Even if he would not pray anyway, he has begun doing something that enhances a mitzvah as opposed to doing the mitzvah. Like adding a spice to a food, without the food, your just eating a spice. That's my point; for a woman to wear tzitzit or wrap tefillin, because they are not essential to her, they must compliment the mitzvot already her responsiblity. The list I gave was simply my opinion not something concrete at all. However, the purpose for a double standard is because there are two types of people in the world, men and women. HaShem would have given us the ability to reproduce a-sexually if he wanted to, but he wanted two people so he made Adam and Havah. Why did not G-d blame Havah for eating the apple, because it was not her responsibility to not eat the apple, it was Adam's. Not until Adam ate were they punished. Does this mean that Havah was useless; not at all, when she ate, her husband was inclined to eat. What does this mean to this conversation? Adam had a different mitzvah from his wife, but he was not tempted by the snake, but rather by Havah, showing us that a man who follows the mitzvot, his wife is conssidered as if she did. If the wife follows the mitzvot the man is not considered as if he did because she is not the head of the house. This is why if you get a wife to pray at shul, the husband will not necessarily come; but if the husband comes, the wife will definitely come as will the children and that is what is important. The husband should be the spiritual leader of a household and if he is not his wife should push him into it. A wife who is the head will not find fulfilment in her husband and her husband will not find fulfillment in her. |
|
|
|
Post by Firestorm on Feb 10, 2006 9:11:45 GMT -8
 I'm with you Messimom. I don't agree with 614's interpretation. On the Day Of Judgement we'll all have to account for what we do individually as fully rational and responsible human beings. Any assertion to the contrary is nonsense. When it comes to twisting scripture to ensure women maintain a childlike, subservient position, both Church tradition and Rabbinical tradition are peas in a pod.
|
|
Pioneer
Full Member
Shema and Shemar
Posts: 210
|
Post by Pioneer on Feb 10, 2006 14:13:42 GMT -8
I'm with you Messimom. I don't agree with 614's interpretation. On the Day Of Judgement we'll all have to account for what we do individually as fully rational and responsible human beings. Any assertion to the contrary is nonsense. When it comes to twisting scripture to ensure women maintain a childlike, subservient position, both Church tradition and Rabbinical tradition are peas in a pod. Nonsense? Why, then did Yeshua speak John 5:24? RSV Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. |
|
|
|
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 12, 2006 14:06:51 GMT -8
Just as Natanel and 614 has stated...I believe it is permissable...The word for children in the passage in question is the Hebrew word "ben" which in it's wide and primary usage is "son" or "a builder of the family name". Alas, it can also be used to communicate a daughter as well. But, the primary usage is a masculine one. If it was used to communicate equally binding upon both son and daughter in general, why not use the Hebrew phrase, "Am Yisrael" meaning "people of Yisrael"...but, it does not. Or, we do have specific examples of texts using the word sons and daughters specifically so that we know it is specifically speaking of the two different groups as we see in the following passage where the root words; "ben/son" and "bat/daughter" are used.... "that G-d's sons (ben saw that men's daughters were beautiful, and they took for themselves wives of all that they chose." - Beresheet/Gen 6:2 Or, we see it get even more specific in the following passage where it uses three separate words for man "ish", woman "isha", and child "yeled" ... "Now while Ezra prayed and made confession, weeping and casting himself down before the house of God, there was gathered together to him out of Yisra'el a very great assembly of men and women and children; for the people wept very sore." - Ezr 10:1 And again, the following passage uses the root word, "yeled" in general to speak of all of the children of Yisrael.... "Behold, I and the children whom YHVH has given me are for signs and for wonders in Yisra'el from YHVH of Armies, who dwells in Mount Tziyon." - Yeshayahu/Isa. 8:18 Another reason why the commandment is specific to men and probably why (in my opinion) the masculine form was used in the passage in question (B'midbar/Num. 15:35) when speaking to the children of Yisrael was because it was the responsibility of the elders of Yisrael and heads of the families and those whom indeed would be so one day...those whom built the family name (the men), to follow through and make sure their families were following and keeping . G'd has always held the men accountable in regards to the families of Yisrael and indeed the country itself. It is the same reason that only men were required to make aliyah for the moedim as found in Shemot/Exo. 23:17...Was YHVH giving a double standard...of course not, it was His own standard that He Himself was setting. Shall we question Him? The commandment for making aliyah was specifically binding on the men, but it was of course permissable for woman and children to come as well. Why was it specifically binding on the men?? Because they were responsible to make sure that they and their families were walking in ...and that is why it is also more of a priority for men to wear tzitzit...because they are overseers of their family and the priests of their home....in a sense they act as living tzitizit for their wives, children, and everyone else in their house hold...as set-apart men everywhere were wearing tzitzityot, those around them would be reminded of the mitzvot by sight and by word. There is no double standard...only YHVH's standard. But, we are getting of track and off subject. Note: the subject in questions is, "When and how do we wear our tzitzits?" If you wish to reply to my statements please do so in threads already established on the subject matter or please start a new thread....otherwise posts will unfortunately be removed. Thank you for your cooperation, So, any thoughts on when and how do we wear our tzitzits? Or, any thoughts on any of the posts already posted regarding, "When and how do we wear our tzitzits?" ? Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
|
|
|
Post by Yitzchak on Feb 13, 2006 7:02:44 GMT -8
614th Mitzvot said: YHVH said: It is common knowledge that when YHVH gave the commandments to Moses he presented them to the people of Israel. All of the people of Israel, women and children included. Does this mean by your interpretation of this small verse in that after men have their monthly menstruation, they need to Niddah? Obviously not, that's obsurd! Yet you say, that when a woman chooses to wear tassles, she needs to already excell at her "assigned duties" before she can even think about taking on tzittzit? Not even Hashem requires so much. YHVH never said, get good at all of my commandments then you earn the ability to wear the tzittzit-- they are not Boy Scout badges. You wear them so that you may remember YHVH's rules, remember who it is who took you out of Egypt, that then you may be able to follow . Would you rather that your wife not also get a daily reminder to follow the commandments? If it is assumed for men that in verse 40 when it says "remember and do all my commmandments" that it is only referencing applicable commandments for the men, then why isn't that same standard applied to the women? How about the understanding of this command that a man should remember to look upon his tzittzit and remember all the commandments which apply to him, and a woman should look upon her tzittzit, and it will help her to remember all the commands which apply to her. That then, leaves only to figure out which commands apply to each/both. I will never need worry about being circumcized, and you will never need worry about cleansing yourself after childbirth. I will never understand this double standard of men. Shalom Messimom Reuel, Forgive me, but I just had to jump in and make this point. Messimom, This is the same argument presented on the "Prayer Shawl thread. We established there that even Yeshua who honored the male roles, wore the shawl, and also the fringes. We established that Yeshua the Living in one sense came to properly interpret for us, and yet He did not seek to change that which had been performed by only men. Before Yeshua we had male elder, male priests, and when Yeshua came we still had male elders, male priests, and male Talmidiim. However, Yeshua did highly honor the women that surrounded him. It seems clear to me that if there were somehow something astray in the idea of TzitTzit and Tallit, that the Made Flesh would have somehow corrected this for us, and established the proper roles for men and women. Shalom, Yitzchak |
|
|
|
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 14, 2006 10:26:36 GMT -8
Good points Yitzchak.
Alright, any further comments on either Yitzchak's or my comments...please address in threads already dedicated to the subject in question.
Todah rabah,
Reuel
|
|
|
|
Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Feb 14, 2006 22:09:49 GMT -8
However, I would still like to stress two things, that the only movement that allows women to wear tzitzit and tefillin regularly is reform which is not actually considered a based movement even by most of their own followers. Secondly, I want to reiterate that tzitzit can also be for women, but not for every women. |
|
|
|
Post by Talmidah on Nov 1, 2006 13:10:59 GMT -8
Shalom, don't mean to butt in, but after study my husband and I agree, the tzitzis are for males, not females. IF more men wore them, them women would be able to fulfil their obligation to "look on the tzittzis, and remember the mitzvot", the women would not have to wear them to fulfil this. We feel this way also the tzitzies even in Yeshua's time were looked on as men's clothing, so we women,shouldn't be wearing them for that reason either. I do have a very pretty 3-cornered "shabbot shawl", that I where to services, and on shabbot.  |
|
|
|
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Nov 3, 2006 23:15:07 GMT -8
Even though I technically agree with you, we allow women in our congregation whom choose to wear tzitzit to do so if it is done in some kind of feminine manner. But, I do believe it is something that is definitely more incumbent upon men. How I pray that more men would become serious about keeping , wear tzitzityot, let their light shine, and remind people about the Elohim whom we serve. Shalom, Reuel |
|
|
|
Post by Tzav_laTzav on Jan 30, 2007 0:28:58 GMT -8
Well, I found this thread after wondering why no women were writing on another tzitzit thread. Yes, I wear tzitziot. I can understand the dissenters' reasoning, but I just do not see those reasons in . There are other times when "ben Israel" is used, intending all the people of Israel. Hebrew is we today would call a very male-oriented language, and this is just the way it is. I firmly believe that when the L-rd said for us to wear tzitziot and remember, He intended all of us, not some. |
|
observance, they should avoid making up new theories and practices....
I'm with you Messimom. I don't agree with 614's interpretation. On the Day Of Judgement we'll all have to account for what we do individually as fully rational and responsible human beings. Any assertion to the contrary is nonsense. 
