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Post by Mark on Jan 8, 2006 5:50:03 GMT -8
 commands that tzitzits be tied to the four corners of our garment (Numbers 15:38-39, Deut. 22:12). That garment was originally, in most rudimentary terms, a blanket that everyone carried around with them- on their shoulders, around their their neck, folded as a stachel for carrying goods, with all sorts of other practical uses and applications. Our clothing has certainly changed. Our outermost garment no longer has four corners. Many now use a tallit for the keeping of this command. Yet, if the tzitziut is a reminder and memorial to guard our minds and remember the , is it sufficient to be reminded for our morning prayers, the times when we have the before us and for worship? Should we not wear tzitzits all the time? |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jan 8, 2006 22:18:16 GMT -8
Shalom Mark, Most orthodox Jews wear tzitziyot all the time with the use of a tallit ketan. I know that many in observant Messianic Judaism do as well. Because it is a four cornered garment it fulfills the mitzvah of wearing the tzitzit on the four corners of the garment with which we wrap ourselves. I do believe tziztit are to be worn most of the day. I think we may already have a old thread on this subject. I will check and provide a link if I find it. Shalom achi, Reuel |
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Post by messimom on Jan 9, 2006 0:05:58 GMT -8
Would you mind translating "ketan" in "tallit ketan"? Thank you. That being asked, what about simply wearing an undergarment (ie tanktop) with permanent tzittzit under your shirt, and have several, to change daily? Isn't that a fairly traditional way of obeying this commandment if you feel you should wear tzittzit every day? (maybe that's what ketan is?  ) Messimom |
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Post by Mishkan on Jan 9, 2006 1:53:04 GMT -8
Would you mind translating "ketan" in "tallit ketan"? There are two styles of tallit that one can wear. The larger outer version is known as "tallit gadol", which means, "large tallit". The other, worn under one's main shirt, and generally made of a lighter material, is the "tallit katan", which means, "small tallit". That being asked, what about simply wearing an undergarment (ie tanktop) with permanent tzittzit under your shirt, and have several, to change daily? Isn't that a fairly traditional way of obeying this commandment if you feel you should wear tzittzit every day? (maybe that's what ketan is? ) Precisely. The purpose of the tallit katan is to provide a lightweight four-cornered garment that can be worn underneath a regular shirt. However, it is considered inappropriate to wear the tallit katan directly against the skin. It is generally worn on top of a t-shirt, but under the dress shirt. Shalom, Mishkan |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jan 9, 2006 2:47:54 GMT -8
Yes, but it is much more practical and does not violate the mitzvah  |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jan 9, 2006 7:12:59 GMT -8
Right. That being said, I believe it is incorrect for an individual to wear tzitziyot attached to their belt loops. A pair of jeans does not fit the requirement of a 4-cornered garment.
Oy! So hot I get already wearing two shirts during the day. I can only imagine wearing three! I'd be sweating buckets...
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Post by Rick on Jan 9, 2006 17:41:47 GMT -8
Since I have learned to be content with the modest means Adonai provides our family,(G-d is faithful, there is always enough), I have learned to be inventive and frugal. I have a tip you might be interested in: I modify a mens 'A' shirt,(3 for $6.00 in most discount stores). On each side I split the fabric about 6" up from the bottom. It is now a 4 cornered garment. Apply a 2" square patch of "Twill iron on fabric patch",(about $1.50 for a sheet big enough for a dozen shirts), about 1/2" from the edges. I then use "no-sew" iron on hem adhesive,($1.00 a roll and I haven't run out yet), to the folded 1/2" edge,(to prevent fraying in the wash), trim the little corner to form a 45 degree when folded and ironed. I then take a paper punch and punch a hole in the exact center of the twill patch, loop the tzit tzit thru the hole and you are done. These last almost as long as the shirt would normally, they even wear well under a 'T-shirt'. I can make a dozen for what 'one' costs on-line w/ shipping. It may sound cobbled but they look like they were machine made if you are careful and take your time. OK, now I'm ready for the jeers and laughs, but it works well for our budget. Just a tip for the "penny wise" Shalom Rick |
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Post by Mark on Jan 10, 2006 4:39:41 GMT -8
Rick,
You are an inspiration. I may be soon having a "craft prject" party for the men in our fellowship!
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jan 10, 2006 4:45:05 GMT -8
Jeers?? No way! Kudos are more in order. I never would've thought of doing something like that. Someone once said," Necessity is the mother of all invention."
Shalom achi,
Natanel
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jan 12, 2006 12:50:39 GMT -8
Great idea Rick! Better to be inventive than break the mitzvah.
Agreed.
Shalom chaverim,
Reuel
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jan 12, 2006 12:59:31 GMT -8
I know of a few good friends that place small tzitzit on their shoulders (one on each) and two on the front of their pants. So, they have two tzitzit on their shirts and two on their pants. They are absolutely convinced that this is the correct interpretation of the mitzvah given in and are teaching others this view. They view the commandment of the four corners to be within the context of the human body and not so much a garment. They also think that the four tzitzit may be worn on multiple garments as long as the four tzitzit are somewhere on what they consider a corner of the one particular garment. They also believe that because the Hebrew word, "kenaf" is used (sometimes translated wing) that they are to put the tzitzit on their shoulders as they believe their shoulders represent their "wings". Any thoughts on this interpretation? For those of you whom are teachers or whom are familiar with Hebrew, do you think this has any Biblical merit? Furthermore, what kind of damage (if any) could this practice cause in Messianic Judaism? And, for people that practice this, how do you think this would effect their witness to greater Israel and the Jewish community at large? Note: Just so no one is confused, I don't subscribe to this interpretation. Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jan 17, 2006 22:24:58 GMT -8
Any thoughts?
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Post by Mark on Jan 18, 2006 4:21:45 GMT -8
No, actually, no thoughts whatsoever.
Our Jewish brethren have been at this for about 900 years. Unless proven otherwise, I'm comfortable with the rabbinical interpretation of mitzvah.
The command for the tzitzits to hang from the four corners of the garment was a specific command- many believe in reference to a specific outer garment (vesture/mantle or outer cloak). We must be careful finding new ways to interpret Scripture, no matter how cool they seem.
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jan 18, 2006 5:16:23 GMT -8
I'm in agreement with Mark here. It is very dangerous and downright destructive when people start to interpret Scripture according to their own understanding.
I think the example that Reuel gave illustrates that there is a definite need to both teach others and to learn how to interpret Scripture properly.
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Post by Yitzchak on Jan 18, 2006 12:45:12 GMT -8
I would have to agree with Mark, and of course as one who was raised in traditional Orthodox Judaism, I have never heard of such a thing. Some of the main teaching I have read, and seen debated have been from the Talmud in Menachot 38-42. The Gemara speaks of a wrapping of oneself in the garment with Tzittziot, as on wraps oneself in the 613 Mitzvot. There is also a Midrash on the Tzittzit being like a rope thrown to a man who falls overboard from a ship, and is tossed a rope. In this way we are connected to HaShem, in that performing this Mitzvot we have a lifeline thrown to us by HaShem, which keeps us connected to Him. Furthermore, the idea of attaching them to pants loops, while popular, does not fulfill the Mitzvot according to Halakha, as it is not possible to move the Tzittzit from one garment to another. I will stop now, as I could probably go on, and on. Shalom, Yitzchak |
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commands that tzitzits be tied to the four corners of our garment (Numbers 15:38-39, Deut. 22:12). That garment was originally, in most rudimentary terms, a blanket that everyone carried around with them- on their shoulders, around their their neck, folded as a stachel for carrying goods, with all sorts of other practical uses and applications. Our clothing has certainly changed. Our outermost garment no longer has four corners. Many now use a tallit for the keeping of this command.
)
