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Niddah
Jan 13, 2016 7:48:45 GMT -8
Post by rivkah on Jan 13, 2016 7:48:45 GMT -8
... Where does such doctrine come from and what to do when such things come up? Oy vey. ... I take it that is a rhetorical question?
The super superior attitude of Christians does get a bit hard to take at times. Ask for prayer and get a lecture on how THEY think you should live ...
Since there is no Temple and contact transference is not an issue I wouldn't say you have to stop touching completely. But that is my opinion, and if the two of you see it differently then by all means try and not touch. Touching sexually I would agree would be wrong, however. So I will pray for you.
I also pray Hashem will bless your union in all your days.
Dan C
Yeah...it rhetorical...just frustrating. However, how do you see the "touch" aspect?  says not to touch...it doesn't say not just "not to touch sexually". What is your interpretation of this? From what I read before, you seemed to hold the view of no touching at all...even sleeping in separate beds (my current view)...can you explain your view so I am clear? |
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Niddah
Jan 13, 2016 11:18:29 GMT -8
Post by alon on Jan 13, 2016 11:18:29 GMT -8
Well, you are going to be in Israel, so probably sleeping in a hotel room in the same bed. It is going to be very difficult to avoid touching altogether. And the whole thing of separate beds in the first place is an issue. Unless you are well off it will be impractical to get separate rooms. Even a room with separate beds may be difficult to get on short notice. Also in cabs, buses, or on planes. So you will be making the best of a bad situation if it happens. You won't be able to avoid all touching.
There is also another issue which may be the higher mitzvah (I don't know); but this will be a time of intimacy for you. Not just sexually, which would still be forbidden of course if you are nidah. But emotionally on a deeper level as well. You are going to be making a foundation for the rest of your married life; making plans, talking about hopes, dreams, values. You've had these conversations before, but not as a married couple. And you'll have them later. Some will even change. But life back in the bustle of work and later children, paying the bills and doing the chores is not going to be the same either. On your honeymoon you'll be relaxed, with no stress, and things will be new , the road ahead a mystery. This is a time where he should be able to hug you, to touch you affectionately (if not intimately). Again, this is my opinion, and you may want to consult a Rabbi about it. But I'd say the higher mitzvah is to relax the restrictions on touch a bit. Of course there is the danger of uncontrolled urges that might come with this, but you sound like a strong couple so I leave that to you. And this may be bad advice, but you asked and that is my opinion.
I am assuming of course there are restrictions and your plans can't be changed. If that were possible I am sure you'd have done it.
When my wife and I got married, we had just 2 days in a town 30 mi. away, but I cherish that time even now, over 30 years later.
Dan C |
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Niddah
Jan 14, 2016 8:32:49 GMT -8
Post by jimmie on Jan 14, 2016 8:32:49 GMT -8
Second Text:
"Ok but let's talk clean and unclean purification . You have missed the other 65 books of the Bible somewhere in your interpretation. Will you be making sacrifices to redeem your firstborn? Will you be clean (more holy and pleasing to God) by keeping kosher? No. This is lifestyle patterns you are setting up in your marriage. Not requirements of godly living in right relationship with God. Tread carefully before you pick and choose to implement legalism and not grace in your marriage. Not letting your husband touch you for 7 days every month is ridiculous."
Rivkah, I think your friend has a valid point which must addressed. It would be a sin on your part to fail to make a sacrifice to redeem your firstborn son, since that would be falling short of the written law ( ) of God. When we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, who is faithful and just, who forgives us of our sins. The way alon put it in another thread is that without the law there can be no grace. Your friend cannot experience hyper grace because there is no law for her to break. Should we break God’s law to experience hyper grace? As Paul says, “God Forbid.” Obeying God’s law is a blessing. Disobeying God’s law is a curse. To have the curse of our sin (breaking the law) removed and be given a blessing is hyper grace. |
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Niddah
Jan 14, 2016 10:12:26 GMT -8
Post by alon on Jan 14, 2016 10:12:26 GMT -8
Rivkah, I think your friend has a valid point which must addressed. It would be a sin on your part to fail to make a sacrifice to redeem your firstborn son, since that would be falling short of the written law ( ) of God. When we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, who is faithful and just, who forgives us of our sins. The way alon put it in another thread is that without the law there can be no grace. Your friend cannot experience hyper grace because there is no law for her to break. Should we break God’s law to experience hyper grace? As Paul says, “God Forbid.” Obeying God’s law is a blessing. Disobeying God’s law is a curse. To have the curse of our sin (breaking the law) removed and be given a blessing is hyper grace. Interesting take. But how is it a sin not to sacrifice when there is no Temple?
Dan C
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Niddah
Jan 14, 2016 11:19:06 GMT -8
Post by jimmie on Jan 14, 2016 11:19:06 GMT -8
If Christ didn't change the Law of God how can a temple?
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Niddah
Jan 14, 2016 12:36:09 GMT -8
Post by alon on Jan 14, 2016 12:36:09 GMT -8
If Christ didn't change the Law of God how can a temple? LOL, fair point. But I think the higher mitzvah is not to sacrifice anywhere except the Temple. No Temple, no sacrifice. However when the Temple is rebuilt the law, as you say, is still in effect and will have to be obeyed. Might be a good thread of its own if you wish to pursue it. I don't want to hijack this thread, but there are things I am unclear about on this.
Dan C
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Niddah
Jan 14, 2016 12:48:29 GMT -8
Post by alon on Jan 14, 2016 12:48:29 GMT -8
rivkah,
I asked Rav S, and it turns out there are a lot of opinions on this (surprise?). So looking for the answers in Rabbinical Judaism will be more confusing than helpful. If you are with a Messianic group or someone who has the authority to make halacha for you, definitely ask for a ruling and follow it. Our own halacha on the issue is yes, you can touch, but without intercourse. However if you are nidah on or shortly after your wedding night the temptation to transgress may be too much, so restricting touch and not seeing each other even slightly disrobed is a fence.
Past this, advice gets a little too “personal” for discussion on the open forum … which is already pushing the envelope in some cases. Like I said earlier, it is not dirty unless we make it so. However it is possible that young people not ready for this information may see it. You can PM me if you want to know, but I would ask that you agree to show the private message to your fiancé so there is no appearance of indiscretion.
Dan C
PS, I also have a personal fence that is being crowded a bit if we speak by PM. Giving advice on such personal matters- those subject to halachical rulings- is one thing on the open forum, where I can be challenged. It is quite another in private. I will pass on what was told to me, however I don’t want to get into giving advice privately. I am not qualified to do that, and it would be grossly overstepping my authority to do so. So please, I do not wish to be inundated by requests for "private counseling" … jimmie, I just know you were thinking of it  ... j/k. But seriously, can't go there.
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Niddah
Jan 14, 2016 17:16:50 GMT -8
via mobile
garrett likes this
Post by Elizabeth on Jan 14, 2016 17:16:50 GMT -8
Honestly the post with the discussion between you and your friend was uncomfortable for me Rivkah, but I don't know if it's just me being overly sensitive. It felt a bit graphic to me. Again maybe it's just me, but I am not so strange that no one else who visits here would feel that way.  Here's my thoughts. If we are worried about clean and unclean and apply the same standards I feel like have been applied elsewhere on this forum; you will be unclean and if your husband touches you so will he. That's what I read anyway. We are all unclean at various points throughout life because we are human. So you're unclean and trust the grace of G-d He understands your circumstances. We all have to do that to one degree or another so no big deal, except maybe it is a big deal because you are in Israel?  I don't know. The biggest question in my mind; and I don't know how far it reaches in the absence of a temple anyway, is if the condition of being unclean is going to limit your husband in any way you guys would like to avoid while in Israel? I don't know the rules and limitations, because I don't understand the implications of ritual impurity for us today. Is he Jewish? If not, would he be able to immerse? Would being unclean prevent him from visiting the Wall? These are just my questions, which may have zero validity or application. However, If they do, can you arrange things so that he can immerse and be clean on certain days? Is it an abuse of grace to depend on immersion in this way, but then why is the command given if so? I don't know, but I figure in the least someone will get the chance to inform me. I do feel like what I am hearing on this thread isn't consistent with what I understood previously on this forum. It definitely feels more lenient then the understanding I came away with previously, but perhaps that's just a reflection of my lack of understanding. Regardless Rivkah, you will likely want your 7 days of "don't touch me I'm unclean" one day. I would be totally fine with my own tent in the backyard and some cheese pizza. Now, if we were only forbidden to be touched by the laundry and dishes. |
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Niddah
Jan 14, 2016 22:43:30 GMT -8
Post by alon on Jan 14, 2016 22:43:30 GMT -8
This is why I started with an explanation of clean and unclean after the initial question. This common translation does not convey what the condition is about. Think of it more as ritual unavailability. You are not “unclean,” something detestable; an abhorrent ‘thing.’ For the common person in times when the Temple stood, the biggest effect this had on their lives is they couldn’t go to the Temple until the evening (when the new day started) and after tevilah. There would have also been the issue of contact impurity. Say you touched a bowl, it then became tum’ah. If anyone touched it then went to the Temple, the impurity went with them. If enough impurity gathered there, Elohim would remove His presence from the Temple; a great tragedy for Israel. Today this is not an issue. If he could immerse in a mikvah, then he would no longer be tumah from touching you, so as long as we are not talking about sexual relations during this time I don’t see how it would be an abuse. But let’s take it one step further and talk about the higher mitzvoth of intimacy during this time. Since we don’t have a Temple to contaminate, casual or affectionate touching being allowed on the honeymoon is similar to the husband assisting a yoladet during childbirth or recovery if it were necessary for the health and welfare of the mother or child. The higher mitzvoth is always to protect life. I see this intimacy (without going too far) as helping get their life together off right; protecting the life of their marriage. Am I being a bit liberal in my interpretation? Maybe. If this is the case you should bookmark this page somehow because I am seldom accused of being at all liberal!  Remember back to the discussion about a lack of a mikvah when soldiers were in the field. Certainly they had ample chances to become tamei, and they typically had no access to a mikvah. What about a butcher? He would be tamei most days. Does he do tevilah every night before kissing his wife? This is also why I advised going into this slow and not making it too hard. These questions of halacha can get involved, confusing, and if we make it so, too hard to follow. We’re just ritually unavailable, and God knows that. It isn’t a sin. The sin is willful disobedience, so if we try and mess it up (and we will), then yes there is grace. Meshiachim do not however use grace as an excuse to sin. We know no sexual relations, and so that is what we do. I don’t think it would restrict either of them too much. Israel in some ways, from what I read, is very secular. I’d avoid the Wall out of respect for the commandments and as a fence against offending Hashem. But eating out (she’ll have to eat somehow), traveling, sightseeing, or just sitting quietly somewhere and talking I wouldn’t see as problems. Yes, I think I alluded to that somewhere too. Men and women have very different needs which have to be considered in a marriage. Part of the learning curve that starts with the honeymoon. And again, this is my inadequately educated opinion being expressed here. Actual halacha is in the purview of the Rabbis, and they all disagree anyhow. Dan (confused myself) C |
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Niddah
Jan 15, 2016 19:59:28 GMT -8
Post by Elizabeth on Jan 15, 2016 19:59:28 GMT -8
I suppose anyway you look at it you would be ritually unavailable as it's a honeymoon. I think I see it differently because going to Israel and the traditional concept of a honeymoon are fundamentally at odds for me. Going to Israel is a once in a lifetime thing for me as it will take me a lifetime to convince my husband of it. (not out of unkindness, but worry) Anyway, I projected my own feelings onto the trip because of that.
How nice that you can both be so enthusiastic for what you believe in Rivkah. I wish you the best as you start your life together, and I do appreciate that you both have such a heart for each other and G-d.
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Post by rivkah on Jun 27, 2017 14:47:22 GMT -8
So my husband and I got married and only did niddah twice before I got pregnant. Now, 14 months later...we are doing it again...and it is hard afternot having to do it for so long though I did do the mikvah after the 66 days after having my girl.
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Post by alon on Jun 27, 2017 15:47:25 GMT -8
It's good to hear from you; and that you are still keeping the mitzvoth. I pray you and your family are doing well.
We all go through slumps where things are difficult. And I can understand how starting to keep this mitzvah after not having to do it for a while might be difficult. But hang in there. It will get easier as you fall back into the routine.
Hearing you are still observant is an inspiration. Thanks.
Dan C
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Post by rivkah on Jul 3, 2017 4:39:09 GMT -8
yes, I'm very blessed to have a husband who had been observant before we got married and this it makes it a lot easier of course when you are in agreement. We follow the bibical timeframe rather then the added days of the rabbi's. We have the added blessing of being in NYC where there are many kosher mikvahs as well.
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says not to touch...it doesn't say not just "not to touch sexually". What is your interpretation of this? From what I read before, you seemed to hold the view of no touching at all...even sleeping in separate beds (my current view)...can you explain your view so I am clear?
I don't know.
