Niddah

[alon]

Oct 23, 2015 20:49:33 GMT -8 rivkah said:

I'm in a relationship with a wonderful observant man and we are planning to marry some time early next year.

Can some lay out the basics of the laws of niddah for me and what (married couples here) do to keep this mizvah?

Thanks for your help.

First let’s deal with the “unclean” misinterpretation in most English Bibles. The terms tum'ah and taharah refer to “ritual impurity and purity" under Jewish law. Tum'ah describes a state of ritual impurity. A person or object which contracts tum’ah is said to be tamei, "ritually impure", and so unsuited for kedusha (holy activities) or use until purified. The term midras, uncleanness or pressure uncleanness, is uncleanness transmitted by either an object or a person. Taharah is a state of ritual purity that qualifies the tahor (ritually pure person or object) as available for holy service. The most common method of achieving taharah is by the person or object being immersed in a mikvah.

Leviticus 15:19-31 (ESV) Niddah
19 “When a woman has a discharge, and the discharge in her body is blood, she shall be in her menstrual impurity for seven days, and whoever touches her shall be unclean until the evening. 20 And everything on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean. Everything also on which she sits shall be unclean. 21 And whoever touches her bed shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water and be unclean until the evening. 22 And whoever touches anything on which she sits shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water and be unclean until the evening. 23 Whether it is the bed or anything on which she sits, when he touches it he shall be unclean until the evening. 24 And if any man lies with her and her menstrual impurity comes upon him, he shall be unclean seven days, and every bed on which he lies shall be unclean. 25 “If a woman has a discharge of blood for many days, not at the time of her menstrual impurity, or if she has a discharge beyond the time of her impurity, all the days of the discharge she shall continue in uncleanness. As in the days of her impurity, she shall be unclean. 26 Every bed on which she lies, all the days of her discharge, shall be to her as the bed of her impurity. And everything on which she sits shall be unclean, as in the uncleanness of her menstrual impurity. 27 And whoever touches these things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water and be unclean until the evening. 28 But if she is cleansed of her discharge, she shall count for herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. 29 And on the eighth day she shall take two turtledoves or two pigeons and bring them to the priest, to the entrance of the tent of meeting. 30 And the priest shall use one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. And the priest shall make atonement for her before the Lord for her unclean discharge. 31 “Thus you shall keep the people of Israel separate from their uncleanness, lest they die in their uncleanness by defiling my tabernacle that is in their midst.”

Niddah, a menstruating woman- sexual relations are forbidden while a woman is niddah. A niddah counts seven days from the first day of her show, then goes to a mikveh for purification the night following the seventh day. Spouses avoid physical contact, and sleep in separate beds; also avoid passing objects directly to each other, cannot see each other undress; no flirtatious conversation.

distinguishes between niddah, a woman having her regular menstrual period, yoledet, a woman giving birth (which includes miscarriage), and zavah, a woman experiencing an irregular flow of blood. A yoledet counts seven days from the birth of a son or 14 days from the birth of a daughter before tevilah. But a zavah must wait seven days after her blood flow ends before undergoing purification.

Leviticus 12 (ESV) Purification After Childbirth, Yoledet
12 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If a woman conceives and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days. As at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean. 3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. 4 Then she shall continue for thirty-three days in the blood of her purifying. She shall not touch anything holy, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying are completed. 5 But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her menstruation. And she shall continue in the blood of her purifying for sixty-six days. 6 “And when the days of her purifying are completed, whether for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the entrance of the tent of meeting a lamb a year old for a burnt offering, and a pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering, 7 and he shall offer it before the Lord and make atonement for her. Then she shall be clean from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, either male or female. 8 And if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement for her, and she shall be clean.”

A woman becomes niddah with signs of active labor, usually when she reaches the point where she cannot walk unaided. However there is disagreement whether other signs of labor, i.e. rupture of the amniotic membrane or release of the mucus plug are what render a woman niddah. Following a vaginal delivery, she enters the ritual status of yoledet, the laws of which are almost identical to niddah. This ritual status has implications for the husband being present at delivery or to assist during delivery and postpartum. If his presence is necessary, her health and that of the child is the higher mitzvah. His emotional support and/or acting as a labor coach raises some issues which are way beyond the scope of this reply or, indeed, my ability to sort out. Likewise, a Doula (female companion for support) raises issues beyond my ken. A woman remains niddah/yoledet one week after all postpartum bleeding ceases. Childbirth is therefore followed by a prolonged time of no physical contact between the new parents. (Again, when necessary for her health that is the higher mitzvah). Cesarean delivery usually results in a niddah status.

Zavah is a state of ritual impurity from vaginal blood discharges other than menstruation. The zavah has the ability to create a midras, and to make persons or objects ritually unavailable. Additionally, the zavah woman (zav if a man) and her partner who engages in forbidden sexual intercourse are liable to kareth, they will be cut off.

Leviticus 15:19-30 (ESV) Zavah
19 “When a woman has a discharge, and the discharge in her body is blood, she shall be in her menstrual impurity for seven days, and whoever touches her shall be unclean until the evening. 20 And everything on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean. Everything also on which she sits shall be unclean. 21 And whoever touches her bed shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water and be unclean until the evening. 22 And whoever touches anything on which she sits shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water and be unclean until the evening. 23 Whether it is the bed or anything on which she sits, when he touches it he shall be unclean until the evening. 24 And if any man lies with her and her menstrual impurity comes upon him, he shall be unclean seven days, and every bed on which he lies shall be unclean. 25 “If a woman has a discharge of blood for many days, not at the time of her menstrual impurity, or if she has a discharge beyond the time of her impurity, all the days of the discharge she shall continue in uncleanness. As in the days of her impurity, she shall be unclean. 26 Every bed on which she lies, all the days of her discharge, shall be to her as the bed of her impurity. And everything on which she sits shall be unclean, as in the uncleanness of her menstrual impurity. 27 And whoever touches these things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water and be unclean until the evening. 28 But if she is cleansed of her discharge, she shall count for herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. 29 And on the eighth day she shall take two turtledoves or two pigeons and bring them to the priest, to the entrance of the tent of meeting. 30 And the priest shall use one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. And the priest shall make atonement for her before the Lord for her unclean discharge.

This all gets much more involved, and is mostly addressed as a matter of halacha for your sect/synagogue. More than this should be presented to a Rabbi as I am not qualified to say. If you don't have a Rabbi, I'll see if I can get help from either R'Reuel or Rav S; or other competent help. But those are the basics. This is all laid out in , and we've just started a new par'shah cycle of study; so this would be a good time to start your readings if you don't already do so. Leviticus is the primary source for these regulations. I recommend a readable version of the Bible for these studies, such as the English Standard Version or the Complete Jewish Bible. Leviticus is difficult enough without the King James English or the Orthodox Jewish Bible's English/Hebrew text.

Dan C

[rivkah]

Thanks for the reply. I've been in the readings for quite a few years now. Now that I am the context of a relationship obviously I am paying a little bit more attention to these commandments in the

Now here is something I never hear addressed. In the beginning of chapter 15 of Leviticus you have the discussion regarding men. They become unclean as well so how does a woman behave towards her husband who is unclean because of a "discharge", that is outside the normal context of marital relations. There seems to be a distinction here as well when a man needs to go through a purification process just like the woman does it she goes beyond her normal days of uncleanness. Please explain.

Thanks

[alon]

Oct 24, 2015 21:05:22 GMT -8 rivkah said:

... Now here is something I never hear addressed. In the beginning of chapter 15 of Leviticus you have the discussion regarding men. They become unclean as well so how does a woman behave towards her husband who is unclean because of a "discharge", that is outside the normal context of marital relations. There seems to be a distinction here as well when a man needs to go through a purification process just like the woman does it she goes beyond her normal days of uncleanness. Please explain.

Leviticus 15:16-18 (YLT) `And when a man's seed of copulation goeth out from him, then he hath bathed with water all his flesh, and been unclean till the evening. `And any garment, or any skin on which there is seed of copulation, hath also been washed with water, and been unclean till the evening. `And a woman with whom a man lieth with seed of copulation, they also have bathed with water, and been unclean till the evening.

According to this and the rest of the chapter, contact with a man, including your spouse, who is zav would render you ritually unavailable (unclean) until evening.

Practically speaking, few of us have access to a mikvah, so tevilah is not any more possible than making the required sacrifices. So we do the best we can. Wash any clothing and bedding and limit contact. Honestly, I do not know what halachically sound practice with this looks like today. It is a good question though; I'll see if I can get an answer.

Dan C

Edit: this is actually one of the areas I've lately been looking into tackling in my quest for observance. Thanks for the kick in the pants to get me going.

[alon]

Apr 12, 2005 22:07:55 GMT -8 R' Y'hoshua Moshe said:

… we as much as possible follow the commandments found in . A few examples would be; we do not sleep in the same bed and avoid sitting in the same areas that may be defiled by her "daveh" (menstruation). We avoid touching each other as instructs. This actually serves to strengthen our appreciation of the intimacy that we do share and helps us not to take it for granted or treat it as some common thing.

This is some good practical advice to get us started.

Jun 27, 2005 4:03:52 GMT -8 Mark said:

... I believe that it is not wrong to demonstrate affection toward one's wife during this time- particularly if she is one who needs physical contact on a regular basis. It is sinful to engage in sexual activity (uncovering her nakedness). In the day, sanitary napkins weren't so relaible and separate sleeping arangements would be normal (in some cases, separate tents altogether). Yet, we must understand that any contact renders us unclean and would require mikvah before sundown. With our indoor plumbing and heated water, this is also not really any big deal either.

I must disagree with Mark here, as tevilah is not just a bath. It is a ritual bath requiring complete immersion in the waters of a mikvah. And a mikvah is kadosh; set apart as holy, and not used for profane (ordinary) purposes. I am going to go out on a limb and say that none of us here have a mikvah in our home! Many Messianic synagogues do not have a mikvah either. So we do what we can.

This does point out the need for two things: first, do not let an opportunity for tevilah pass. Second, we should be doing n’tilat yadayim, which is like tevilah for the hands. This we can easily do.

Dan C

edit: theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3085/netilat-yadayim

Not a lot of information there. It is really simple; I'll try to write something up on it later. An internet search should tell you more than you wanted to know about it as well.

edit-edit: I wrote a short reply at that link, so there is more info now.

[alon]

Rav S got back to me. He suggested I "leave out" the Corban comment; I'll delete it when I'm done. He said other than that it was ok.

Trying to stay ritually pure without a mikvah is difficult in our culture. So what it looks like in practice is as I said. Plus we should take a bath if available, if not a shower. He definitely recommends n'tilat yadayim. He does "believe in separate beds during Niddah, not so much for ritual purity but more as a yitzkore (remembrance). It does enhance the marriage." We got cut off, so I didn't ask what was the remembrance for. He does not worry about transference.

Hope this helps.

Dan C

edit: got back to him. He said "There are some rites I do, not because it's a mitzvah, but as a remembrance to the commandment."

[rivkah]

Ok so since my boyfriend and me are not yet married how should the laws of nIddah apply to her dating relationship? Obviously we will not be having sexual relations as we are not yet married but we do want to set a healthy pattern for when we do get married so are there any implications for the dating relationship?

[alon]

Oct 27, 2015 19:23:48 GMT -8 rivkah said:

Ok so since my boyfriend and me are not yet married how should the laws of nIddah apply to her dating relationship? Obviously we will not be having sexual relations as we are not yet married but we do want to set a healthy pattern for when we do get married so are there any implications for the dating relationship?

Dating is something I hadn't thought about. But I congratulate you wanting to start off right even before marriage.

Logically the same rules would apply. How well you are able to do this will depend on how open your sharing information with each other is. This touches on some sensitive and potentially embarrassing topics for both of you. Sex, and the natural processes are not dirty unless we make it so. Still, these are difficult to discuss for most in our society. So the next step here would be up to the two of you to talk it over and decide what this will look like for you. It also will depend on your access to a mikvah and someone to read for you.

Speaking of which, I would suggest that you somehow find a suitable mikvah for just before you are married, assuming you will be. You sound very serious. Seems that would be a very special way to start a marriage off right. Some other threads on tevilah (though called by the contemporarily inclusive term mikvah):

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/2214/question-mikvah

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/1717/matt-christian-baptism-jewish-mikvah

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/2260/mikvah-baptism

Dan C

[rivkah]

Oh yes...we are very serious when it comes to following G-d and our desire to honor Him. I praise Him that It seems that we "fit" so well in this regard. I hear of so many couples who have two different views on Toeah, etc. B"H we are on the same page....G-d has put us together!

Interesting that you mention the mikvah...I do hope that we can find one. Both the man and the woman mikvah before the weedding, right? I think we will be getting married in the spring...so a natural Mikvah (lake, etc.) may be an option as well. With living near Boro park (he lives in NYC) - a mikvah should not be a problem. The trickly part is finding options in NC where the wedding will be.

Thanks for the help!

[rivkah]

I'm still confused on the point of men and family purity. If a husband has sexual relations with his wife - he is unclean and make her unclean - they both wash and are unclean till the evening. However, if a man has an emission, let's say in his sleep, would it be against for his wife to touch him until he is clean in the evening, assuming she is clean? In this case - he is unclean and she is clean. How should this be handled by law?

[alon]

Nov 25, 2015 6:19:21 GMT -8 rivkah said:

I'm still confused on the point of men and family purity. If a husband has sexual relations with his wife - he is unclean and make her unclean - they both wash and are unclean till the evening. However, if a man has an emission, let's say in his sleep, would it be against for his wife to touch him until he is clean in the evening, assuming she is clean? In this case - he is unclean and she is clean. How should this be handled by law?

I am not qualified to give you a definitive answer here, so take this as advice. In fact, the only real answers would come from someone you trusted to make halacha; or who was in authority to do so if you were a member of his assembly.

First off, it would depend on how strict your Beit Din is, or how strict you wanted to be. We do what we can if there is not a good synagogue nearby. My advice is if doing this on your own, don't make it too difficult. Start slow and work up. Without a Temple to contaminate, contact impurity with objects isn't such an issue. Contact with his issue is another thing, and if you are sleeping together there is the very real possibility you came into contact. My advice, err on the side of caution and assume you are both tumah. If you were not sleeping together at the time obviously this wouldn't apply, unless you come into contact when cleaning the bedding or his laundry.

Since we don't typically have unlimited access to a mikvah it is impossible to keep the mitzvoth entirely anyhow. Doing what we can, we'd bathe and do n'tilat yadayim as well.

Again, this is advice, not halacha. Hope it helps.

Dan C

[jimmie]

This seems strait forward to me.
Lev 15:18 The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.
Compare with Deut 23:9-11 when it occurs during an army encampment.

[alon]

Good call jimmie. I never saw this before, but the word for what the person who is tahor is to bathe in is not מִקְוֶה mikvah, but מים  mayim.

יב. וְהָיָה לִפְנוֹת-עֶרֶב יִרְחַץ בַּמָּיִם וּכְבֹא הַשֶּׁמֶשׁ יָבֹא אֶל-תּוֹךְ הַמַּחֲנֶה:

12. But it shall be, when evening comes on, he shall wash himself with water; and
when the sun is down, he shall come into the camp again.

Deu 23:11 (KJV) But it shall be, when evening cometh on, he shall wash himself with water:H4325 and when the sun is down,he shall come into the camp again.

H4325  מים.  mayim  mah'-yim  Dual of a primitive noun (but used in a singular sense); water; figuratively juice; by euphemism urine, semen: - + piss, wasting, water (-ing, [-course, -flood, -spring]).

Looking at the Strong's definition for mayim, there seems to be a play on words there, as it can mean both water and semen. This brings up the possibility that the washing still should be done in a mikvah. However the plain text meaning cannot be changed (Hillel's 1st rule of scriptural exegesis). It also makes sense that a mikvah would not always be readily available on the campaign trail. Having served for just short of seven years, I can tell you that under field conditions you may be lucky to have enough water for a helmet bath. So my take, after looking at this with the new perspective you suggest, is that the advice given most frequently here is correct: We do the best we can. If a helmet full of less than absolutely clean water is all you have, you would use that. If all we have access to is our bath-tub, we use that. If we are lucky enough to have access to a mikvah, we'd do tevilah.

Straightforward though I don't know about. I looked at some more Jewish sites on the topic, and surprise! I still found disagreement! Some say that without a Temple, cohen, and the ashes of the red heifer the entire structure of keeping ritually pure is negated. Others argue that while it is true we can't keep it all, most of the requirements are still in effect. I prefer to keep it simple: We do what we can. Not just what we want to, but all that we can. And I think the wording here supports that this is all Hashem requires of us.

Dan C

[Questor]

Nov 25, 2015 22:19:37 GMT -8 alon said:

Not just what we want to, but all that we can. And I think the wording here supports that this is all Hashem requires of us.

And it is actually easier to keep adding on than it to say, "No, I just do this....", because it feels better to stretch your soul a little here and a little there!  One cannot become Jewish overnight...it's takes the devotion of family, and the entire Messianic community to train a child up in Messianic Judaism, and they don't have to unlearn what they already know.  If they get 12 years, can't we who are dipping our toes into the cold water of emet have at least as much time? (and I say, "Please, Abba, forgive me." and then I do teshuvah again!)

I know that I started with Passover...then added the Sabbath...then added clean foods...then added on all the feasts, and am slowly switching to kosher...and I am still fighting every step of the way the rebelliousness of my nature, added to the fact that I am doing it without any local support, and the complete lack of memory on other people's parts to stay AWAY from my getting ready for Shabbat!  I am always racing the sunset, even if I start cooking on Wednesday, which is necessary with Thanksgiving on a Thursday, and the Sabbath following hard on it's heels every year!

And the Adversary knows this, and uses it against me, with nice new Baptist neighbors coming for a visit, and other such nice things that would have been better on another day...


But it's still good!

[rivkah]

So, a friend and I were texting as was asking for prayer because there is a chance I will be niddah sometime during my honeymoon in March (pray that is not the case as that would be awful!)

this is what she sent me: 

First text:
"And there are lots of things you can do together sexually. My friends still enjoy one another in the shower together during their cycle. The water stops the flow and give them a fun alternative during their period times."

I then told her that David (my future husband) follow the written which says that Husband and wife are not to touch sexually or in any other way during that time of Niddah...she than replied...

Second Text: 
"Ok but let's talk clean and unclean purification . You have missed the other 65 books of the Bible somewhere in your interpretation. Will you be making sacrifices to redeem your firstborn? Will you be clean (more holy and pleasing to God) by keeping kosher? No. This is lifestyle patterns you are setting up in your marriage. Not requirements of godly living in right relationship with God. Tread carefully before you pick and choose to implement legalism and not grace in your marriage. Not letting your husband touch you for 7 days every month is ridiculous."

This is example of Christian hyper grace...I know my friend doesn't want to seem that way...but what else do I call it...really? I got upset at this and said that seems like she is just making an excuse for disobeying. I mean if I were sick or my husband were, of course there is grace and I could care for him and he for me. 

Where does such doctrine come from and what to do when such things come up? Oy vey. 

Do pray that G-d would show grace and not allow me to be Niddah at anytime during my honeymoon as we will be in Israel, etc. I would be heartbroken if my husband couldn't touch me during that time...

[alon]

Jan 13, 2016 6:48:12 GMT -8 rivkah said:

... Where does such doctrine come from and what to do when such things come up? Oy vey. ...

I take it that is a rhetorical question?

The super superior attitude of Christians does get a bit hard to take at times. Ask for prayer and get a lecture on how THEY think you should live ...

Since there is no Temple and contact transference is not an issue I wouldn't say you have to stop touching completely. But that is my opinion, and if the two of you see it differently then by all means try and not touch. Touching sexually I would agree would be wrong, however. So I will pray for you.

I also pray Hashem will bless your union in all your days.

Dan C