Debleeding Hamburger? Hot dogs, Bacon, Bolgona?

[Chizuk Emunah]

Hmm.... Good points. I need to look into that further.

[Rick]

I personally disagree with eating meat that was hunted, as it precludes the possibility of it being slaughtered in a kosher manner.

I would humbly disagree here; as an avid bowhunter, I have fed my family many years from the game I have hunted and dressed myself.

First, 9 out of ten "good" shots will hit the lungs, heart or both. The animal will run until it is 'bled out'. I have always done my best to, first make only a good shot, and once recovered field dress the animal properly. The nearest Kosher butcher is easily 250 mi from me, so I have to process to the best of my ability and knowledge. I do know that the game I put in my freezer is as close to bloodless as I can get it, and has far less blood, than anything I have bought,(including some 'mail order' "Kosher" beef).

I believe if at all possible that the meat should be as kosher as possible. But, sometimes you have to work with what you have. The scriptures technically do not tell us that we must slaughter an animal in any given way other than we must let the blood of the animal drain upon the ground and that it must be covered up with dirt.

I would agree, I follow Scripture and do the best I can with the tools and means available.

[Prodigal Girl]

Well, all this description of hunting would then imply that it is ok to shoot the animal ("good shot") in the head in the slaughter house, with whatever (bow and arrow, shotgun, stun gun, hammer?) then bleed it out. Actually in the slaughter house it would be bled out right away probably whereas in hunting you have to locate the animal first, which sometimes takes awhile. Just how much time should you let go by before you consider that the animal when you find it after shooting it, is no longer Kosher because it has laid there awhile?
Like I said, I have never studied slaughtering. I do not know the mechanics of it. I do not pay attention when my family members cut up their deer. I guess I am just wondering if we make overly much of the command to not eat blood, to let the blood drain out. Maybe it is a lot simpler than traditionally taught and carried out. But I don't know.

[Mark]

So, this would bring us back to the position of your rabbi who said, "not to worry because modern slaughtering methods remove all the blood."

[steve_613++]

Although I follow written , I can see the value and logic of many of the rabbinical fences. If there is a conflict, then of course the rabbis lose.

Now, permits consumption of a hunted, clean animal, provided it is bled and the blood covered with earth. However, the rabbis claim that the slaughtering method they use is much more humane, and I agree. The blade used by the shochet is extremely sharp and, I believe, causes no pain. The animal simply faints. No adrenaline in its system from being hunted.

(I know nothing about hunting, so I will stand corrected by you hunters. When you say hunted do you mean "stalked"?)

Shalom.

Steve.

[A-T_livzinme]

Hello Steve,
As a hunter, I can tell you most game that I have "harvested" never "saw it comming." I will patiently find animals or sit and wait or use calls and scents to attract a curios searcher. I would never recommend giving chase as it is not very safe ... i.e. running and climbing with a loaded firearm and a few pounds of gear could produce a very unfortunate mishap. So far, I have only harvested 1 animal (cow elk) that took more than 2 steps before falling dead.
Sorry if perhaps this seems a little morbid ... I guess my only major point is that at no time did the animals feel in danger or harrassed by me (or most any hunter I know) before taking the shot. One minute munching a snack, next minute becomming a snack ....

Shalom!

[Nachshon]

There are several things about this controversy. 1) The specifically tells us that it is permisseable to eat game.
2) Don't eat ground meat. Even if it is marked "Kosher" it has the forbidden fats in it. The rabbis have declared that it is alright to eat the fat on the kidneys, the fat tail, etc. But the forbids it. Thus, these fats wind up in your ground meats. Just stay away from hamburger.

[Mark]

There are two different opinions within Judaism about this. One is that all fat is to be avoided. The other is that only fat that is from animals sacrificed to Adonai are corban (dedicated). The reason is because the prohibitions of eating fat are all in the context of Leviticus 3:16-17 and Leviticus 7:24-25. Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Nazir 23 suggests that only fat from animals being sacrificed is corban and not to be eaten.
"The Sefer HaChinukh explains that, from this verse, there are three types of fat in an animal that are prohibited: the fat on the kidneys, intestines and loins (the region where the groin and lower abdomen are). As a result, in the Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Chulin, chazal (the sages) note that fat which is covered by the meat is permissible—the did not prohibit fat that is b’tokh ha’kesalim, or within the loins; rather, the forbade only fat that is al ha’kesalim, or over the loins. " (http://dolphin.upenn.edu/~dbh/parshas/tzav/03/)


Mark

[Nachshon]

The context of Leviticus 7 clearly indicates that it is not merely on animals that have been sacrificed. Also, remember this mitzwa, Leviticus 17:3-5, we are commanded to bring everything as a sacrifice. The only exception is if we are too far away. Presumeably, then, we are still to treat it like a sacrifice in everything but the altar and directly offering it to Father.

[Mark]

Nachson,

Your position is valid and I don't want you to feel that I am arguing against it. I simply want to point out that even with orthodoxy there are differing of opinions on this text.

Mark

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Excellent point Mark. I certainly believe that hunting is fine according to and as long as the blood is removed from the meat it is kosher according to Adonai's ...now, the commandments of men are a different matter altogether. If you have access to Rabbinic Kosher, you may as well take advantage of it and support those supporting kosher foods. But, if you have no such access, the simple word of God will do

Although I follow written , I can see the value and logic of many of the rabbinical fences. If there is a conflict, then of course the rabbis lose.

Amein!

One minute munching a snack, next minute becomming a snack ....

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[Otto]

I would like to point something out with supermarket bought meat. The likelihood of supermarket meat being contaminated is good. My son is a meat cutter at a major supermarket here in Florida and has told me that even thou they try to keep meats separate, the juice-{this could be from the contaminated water that is on a knife, table, machine, cleaning rag, or apron as well as blood) from one animal to another. My son said that his supermarket will bring in fish flay that has a circle U on the box, then display the fish flay between the shrimp and crab and when one lays on the other they just move it off, what of the juice from crab or shrimp.

The blood in supermarket meat is much bloodier that kosher meat that I buy.

What of eating out? I use to work at a restaurant and they are very un-kosher. The table they just took the slab of pork ribs off will hold your stake, and the same grill that just cooked the pork ribs are now cooking your stake. And if the restaurant is busy the pork ribs and stake will be laying side by side. One time a customer ordered a slab of beef ribs but we had run out of beef ribs. The managers said “just give them the pork ribs they look the same”.

“I read the ingredients on labels.”

If ignorance is bliss, then don’t read further.

www.vrg.org/nutshell/faqingredients.htm#cheese


Natural flavors can be pretty much anything approved for use in food. Why do companies "hide" ingredients under "natural flavors"? It's considered a way of preserving the product's identity and uniqueness. Sort of like a "secret recipe"

Did you know that L-cysteine, a common dough conditioner, flavor enhancer in human and pet foods, and precursor in some dietary supplements, is most often derived from human hair or duck feathers.

Some red dyes are made from the cochineal beetle. These are usually labeled as cochineal, carmine, or carminic acid.

[Prodigal Girl]

nachshon said:

The context of Leviticus 7 clearly indicates that it is not merely on animals that have been sacrificed. Also, remember this mitzwa, Leviticus 17:3-5, we are commanded to bring everything as a sacrifice. The only exception is if we are too far away. Presumeably, then, we are still to treat it like a sacrifice in everything but the altar and directly offering it to Father.

I am interested in the statement that we are to bring everything as a sacrifice. Does that mean all food needs to be taken to the temple and sacrificed by the priests, or just meat? Because that would not make sense logistically. How far away is too far away? Is this what led to the whole Kosher industry?

[Tyler]

Sorry for changing the subject momentarily. This will be my only post on this thread.

I saw something that concerned me a bit and wanted to address it.

Someone earlier in the discussion mentioned halal meat. That is meat that is ritually slaughtered by Muslims.

At first glance this may seem like a good idea since the method they use is very similar to kosher slaughtering. Oftentimes halal meat is cheaper and more readily available than kosher meat.

However, please stay away from halal meat. Every animal is slaughtered with a prayer in the name of Allah. Allah is the name of a pre-Islamic idol and is a false god. Halal is meat sacrificed to idols; this is forbidden to all followers of Messiah.