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Post by Nachshon on Jan 27, 2007 16:38:12 GMT -8
"Well actually, the line of sucession from pre-exillic Perushim and Orthodox Judaism is very well established. There is no question of this, but a question of id the perushim were legitimate." Yeah, sorry. I misunderstood what you were saying. "If the Tzaddikim objected to the writing of halakah they would have to preserve it only orally. A scattering of Tzaddikim in isolated nomadic groups in desert would've certainly lost the bulk of their oral traditions or modified them beyond recognition. And certainly being isolated from the Jewry they would not have adopted the standard Perushim Halakha that prevailed in Judaism." Why is it certain that they would have lost it? It is well documented that many Muslims would memorize the entire Q'uran (including segments now apparently lost) by oral transmission. Also, if you are correct about this transmission, why was your so-called Oral  lost during the exile in Bavel? Also, you point out your own error, in that you say they would not have adopted the standard halacha. So we must assume that this halacha is a late invention of the p'rushim, if you are correct. "1 century sect (including early Chr*istians/Messianic Jews) opposed Oral Law." Would you like me to endeavour to prove that Iyshu did, indeed, reject it? "The "Pharisees" mentioned in the NEw Testament were most likely the Hellenist High Class Tzaddikim collaborating Perushim who served on the corrupt Sanhedrin." Then why is no differentiation made in the so-called "New Testament"? (The Mashian Writings is a better term, in my opinion.) Regarding the immortality of the soul, I know it is a Greek concept. |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jan 27, 2007 17:56:05 GMT -8
Definitely a good debate going on here guys, but it should be transferred over to this thread, Talmud do, Talmud don't? or this one, Oral Law. Edit: One correction that I would like to note (and I've made this mistake before) is that we shouldn't confuse the Tzaddikim with the Tzaddokim. The Tzaddikim are righteous people, whereas the Tzaddokim were the descendents of Tzadok who became the Sadducees. Shavua Tov, Natanel |
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Post by Nachshon on Jan 27, 2007 21:42:54 GMT -8
I'm sorry, Natanel. We kind of got carried away.
Right. I actually preferr the Aramaic term Zadukay, but whatever floats your boat...
Shalom,
Nachshon
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jan 29, 2007 6:48:28 GMT -8
I'm sorry, Natanel. We kind of got carried away. Right. I actually preferr the Aramaic term Zadukay, but whatever floats your boat... Shalom, Nachshon No problem. It's a great issue to debate about. That's why I referred you over to the other threads. I know you prefer Aramaic, and it is definitely good to know and use, but I try to use Hebrew whenever possible. |
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Post by Tzav_laTzav on Jan 29, 2007 23:14:09 GMT -8
I have enjoyed reading the questions and considerations regarding tzitziot in this thread, but as a woman, I could not help but notice that apparently, no women answered. Shall I be the token female?  I wear mine on a four-cornered talit katan. Of the talit katans I have purchased, none were suitable, so I did my research and ended up creating my own, but I buy my tzitziot from the shop at my shul, where they sell tzitziot with techelet from the snail. I have no problem with wearing this techelet, because I am not eating the dye, just as I would have no problem donating blood, because the receiver is not going to eat my blood, and the temple had no problem being covered with the skins of nonkosher beasts, because no one was going to eat the pelts. I tie my own tzitziot, using the 7, 8, 11, 13 schematic. There is something about tying them oneself -- the thoughts while tying, the consideration, the blue dye that gets on one's hands -- all of it -- is a praise and a submission to HaShem. There is no problem wearing them at work, even though I work for a Christian church. My boss, the pastor, jokingly asked me if my wearing them made me more holy than him. Well, you and I know that in humor lies an element of the humorists' truth. But I responded, "No, not at all. I wear them because I really need reminders to be good." So many Christians think we do what we do because we think ourselves holier. That is so not so! The ladies of the church where I work have a weekly Bible study, and one day, they sent a delegate down to my office to get me, so I could tell them why I wear tzitziot. What a privilege. I know that there is contention regarding whether women should wear them, but long ago, this was not so. Only in more recent years have the "rules" changed to say that women are not obligated to . I find that unfortunate. In this particular case, the command's pronouns are the same used to include both genders in other Scriptures. Further, it is mentioned in the Writings, by some of the rabbis, that their wives and daughters wore tzitziot on their "aprons." I love as much as any male. Why should I be excluded from the rights and responsibilities to it? HaShem did not exclude me. Further, " . . . there is neither male nor female . . . ." |
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Pioneer
Full Member
Shema and Shemar
Posts: 210
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Post by Pioneer on Jan 30, 2007 8:26:22 GMT -8
I have enjoyed reading the questions and considerations regarding tzitziot in this thread, but as a woman, I could not help but notice that apparently, no women answered. Shall I be the token female? I wear mine on a four-cornered talit katan. Of the talit katans I have purchased, none were suitable, so I did my research and ended up creating my own, but I buy my tzitziot from the shop at my shul, where they sell tzitziot with techelet from the snail. I have no problem with wearing this techelet, because I am not eating the dye, just as I would have no problem donating blood, because the receiver is not going to eat my blood, and the temple had no problem being covered with the skins of nonkosher beasts, because no one was going to eat the pelts. I tie my own tzitziot, using the 7, 8, 11, 13 schematic. There is something about tying them oneself -- the thoughts while tying, the consideration, the blue dye that gets on one's hands -- all of it -- is a praise and a submission to HaShem. There is no problem wearing them at work, even though I work for a Christian church. My boss, the pastor, jokingly asked me if my wearing them made me more holy than him. Well, you and I know that in humor lies an element of the humorists' truth. But I responded, "No, not at all. I wear them because I really need reminders to be good." So many Christians think we do what we do because we think ourselves holier. That is so not so! The ladies of the church where I work have a weekly Bible study, and one day, they sent a delegate down to my office to get me, so I could tell them why I wear tzitziot. What a privilege. I know that there is contention regarding whether women should wear them, but long ago, this was not so. Only in more recent years have the "rules" changed to say that women are not obligated to . I find that unfortunate. In this particular case, the command's pronouns are the same used to include both genders in other Scriptures. Further, it is mentioned in the Writings, by some of the rabbis, that their wives and daughters wore tzitziot on their "aprons." I love as much as any male. Why should I be excluded from the rights and responsibilities to it? HaShem did not exclude me. Further, " . . . there is neither male nor female . . . ." Shalom tzavlatzav; Welcome, I enjoy reading your posts. I have a short term memory problem, so I can't recall the bulk of my Teachers commentary on women being exempt from some of the mitzvot, but one thing he said was that woman was naturally closer to God as she possesses his unconditional love, and because the needs of your children can interfere with keeping the time related mitzvot. Men do not and need constant reminders to love the lord, one other thing I remember is the reason that men and women were separated is because of the man being so easily distracted by woman. He says that he sees no reason to bar women from doing any and all these things, but he makes reminders all the time, "When one such as a Gentile convert and/or a woman who have special exemptions, decides to do these things that you will commit to do them as long as you are able to do them. As Yeshua advised, "Count the cost." He(my Teacher) says we can add to our worship as much as you desire, but never take away. As far as I know I was from the Nations, but a few years ago I came across a picture of my Grandmothers family and her father looks like a Rabbi, his name was Lewis which is a derivative of Levi, from the Sephardi areas and because of the Inquisition was disguised. She also had Native American blood, she refused to claim either one. So far I have been unable to confirm nor deny, so I am in limbo. It was especially neat when you told of the office "Bible Study" inviting you to speak of your tzitzot. Shalom u'vrachot |
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Post by Tzav_laTzav on Jan 30, 2007 16:46:56 GMT -8
Thank you so much, Pioneer! I am really enjoying the responses on this site. It is a very good place. With regard to the mitzvot, you wrote, Amein! I started thinking about wearing them several years ago, and it took a long, long time for me to do it. I think it must be thought through completely, the concept lived with for a long while, before committing to it. I don't know -- there is something very sweet about doing . |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 5, 2007 2:32:28 GMT -8
I do not think obligates women to wear tzitizyot. Historically up until recently it actually was not the norm for women in Yisrael to do so. I think if a woman chooses to wear tzitziyot that it is acceptable as long as it is done with a garment that is clearly feminine. What I do take issue with is women wearing men's clothing. When a women starts wearing a garment that bears the tzitzit that has always traditionally been a garment of a man (such as a tallit gadol, or even a men's tallit katan), I believe it is a violation of . Clearly there can be a tallit katan that is feminine (not like most that are sold on the internet or otherwise). If a woman chooses to wear tzitziyot I think examples like the above are the best. Wear them on your "aprons", wear them on your dresses, wear them on your head coverings… But, I council Messianic and observant women not to wear the tallit (traditionally a man's garment) or most tallit katan (also traditionally a garment of a man). When women consider wearing tzitziyot they should be careful not to break one commandment while attempting to keep another. This of course is not the subject of this thread...it is how we tie our tzitzit. I also tie my tzitzit according to the 7, 8, 11, 13 tradition. I admire your zeal for the of Avinu Melchenu. Don't loose it!  Shalom b'Yeshua, Reuel |
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Post by Tzav_laTzav on Feb 5, 2007 9:19:00 GMT -8
Thank you. And this reminds me of another question for another thread here.
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Post by Nachshon on Feb 23, 2007 15:26:05 GMT -8
This was something really interesting that I was thinking about recently. Recently I was listening to a speaker, and he made the statement that, in his research, he found a Talmudic discussion of what was a valid tzit-tzit. It was talking about if one section gets cut off, is it still a valid tzit-tzit, etc. The Talmudic conclusion was that all that was required was three wraps of the techellet, a double knot, and a little bit of fringe. You all know my stand on Talmud, so at this point I was unimpressed. But the reason they gave was fascinating. It was because this is the way tzit-tziot were tied in ancient times. Now, I don't accept Talmud as an authority, but as a historical referrence it has a good bit of usefulness. The thing that immediately occurred to me was this, "And they do all their deeds that they might be seen by the sons of men. For they widen their Tefillin and lengthen the Tekhelet of their robes." Matthew 23:5 (Younan)
I'm beginning to wonder if this is what Rabbiy Y'hoshu'a was referring to. Could it be that he would have us tie our tzit-tziot as just three wraps, a double knot, and a little bit of fringe?
Anywho, something to think about.
Shalom,
Nachshon
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Post by messimom on Feb 23, 2007 16:20:12 GMT -8
Sorry Nachshon, I just had to say it.............How do I tie tzittzit(well, at least my husbands)..................With both hands!! LOL Ha ha ha ha....I crack myself up............
Messimom
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Post by Nachshon on Feb 23, 2007 17:10:28 GMT -8
Sorry Nachshon, I just had to say it.............How do I tie tzittzit(well, at least my husbands)..................With both hands!! LOL Ha ha ha ha....I crack myself up............ Messimom *groooooooooan* lol! That was hilarious.  |
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Post by czygyny on Jul 16, 2007 18:03:54 GMT -8
OK, I have surmised that women are not necessarily commanded to wear tzitziyot, but in obedience to the promptings of the Spirit, I have tied little ones on the four corners of my white prayer shawl, and am making larger ones that have jump rings and safety pins to wear on my clothing.
I am very leery of trying to use any kabbalistic, numerology based tyings, so I am just using macrame knotting to make the 'tassel' more substantial and attractive.
I found a nice deep sky blue thread to go with the white threads.
When I read about the 'four-cornered' application in, it occurred to me that the square shape was the style of the clothes worn at the time, and clothing has changed since then. To me, it is the tassels themselves that are to be the reminder, not so much a particular shape and style of clothing--and that is my understanding at this time.
Perhaps the Ruach will lead me on to other opinions on the matter later, and, as the old TV commercial said 'I can always make more'.
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Post by Nachshon on Jul 18, 2007 3:50:23 GMT -8
There are basically two interpretations of the four-cornered garments. Both have some historical veracity. My imah is of your opinion. It is what they wore, so that is where God commanded that they be put.
I beg to differ. I don't think He would be so specific were that the case. I am of the opinion that the beged was a garment designed to separate Israel from the other nations. They wore the long, flowing robes like the Arabs still do, and over it they wore a beged with their tzitzioth. If you go to the Middle east, their clothing hasn't changed in at least 2,000 and probably 3,000 years. But you'll not find an Arab with a beged on.
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Post by Yitzchak on Jul 19, 2007 9:51:15 GMT -8
OK, I have surmised that women are not necessarily commanded to wear tzitziyot, but in obedience to the promptings of the Spirit, I have tied little ones on the four corners of my white prayer shawl, and am making larger ones that have jump rings and safety pins to wear on my clothing. There is much dispute over this subject. The sages taught that women were exempted as this Mitzva was a positive commandment dependent on fixed time. I must admit, that as I was raised a traditional Jew I have not been a big fan of women wearing those garments which have been worn only by men for thousands of years. However, as more people come into Messianic Judaism and specifically women who felt drawn to fulfill this Mitzvot, I believe it is important that at least they do so in a Kosher manner. I do not believe that jump rings and safety pins would apply. Again, there are many different arguments regarding the proper way to tie tzittzit, however, I do not think we have the ability to just decide that we can tie them as we like, I actually think what Nachson presented is very interesting. This is where I probably have the most difficult time. I do believe there is sufficient evidence to determine that a particular type of blue was used, and this was derived from a particular type of die. There might have been an argument about this at one time, but there is sufficient documentation that the Techelet being produced in Israel at this time is "Kosher". I have seen many people coming into Messianic Judaism recently taking on these commandments, but doing them as they see fit. This is a great concern to me, not only from the standpoint of proper observance, but more importantly regarding the witness it is to our traditional Jewish brothers and sisters who do not know Messiah. I am also greatly concerned, and I am not speaking this to you, just as it relates to this subject, that many of these same people are actually making Jewishness and Jewish ritual idols. The focus becomes more about what I can do to be more observant, and less about how can come closer and be more intimate with Yeshua. Actually, there is some question as the difference in the Hebrew words regarding "tassle" and "fringes", and the distinctions between how and when they were worn. I will be doing some more research on this, and will post when I have more to say about it. We should always be led by the Spirit of G-d, but be aware as I am sure you are, that the Ruach will never lead us in a direction that is opposed to the . Shalom, Yitzchak |
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lost during the exile in Bavel? Also, you point out your own error, in that you say they would not have adopted the standard halacha. So we must assume that this halacha is a late invention of the p'rushim, if you are correct.
