How do you tie your tzitzit?

[Nachshon]

Natanel, how many Hebrew words are there for the colour blue?

It is commanded that they be chains in Deut. 22:12. It doesn't use the word tzit-tzit in this verse, but g'diyl, which is a chain.

There is no command in that says you cannot use a colour other than white. I think white would be prefferable, but not commanded.

A particular tie is not commanded, so long as it has the appearance of a chain.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Tikva]

Thanks Nachshon, I had never realized that tassel had a different root in that verse. This is all really interesting to learn about.

I never thought tzitzit would be so complicated!

I've also read (and been told) that each person should tie his own tzitzit -- obviously some here don't believe that, and I'd like to know where your reasoning for it is founded. I'm currently of the opinion that while it would be easier to buy them pre-tied... the easiest way is not usually the right way... Any thoughts on this? Am I just trying to make things harder than they need to be?

---
I guess I was editing this post as you were typing your next post Nachson. Thanks for the "warning" -- I had figured that might be the case since you used the Karaite method of tying. I do think the Talmud is of value (though I certainly don't think it has the last word on everything), but I'm glad to hear your thoughts and they've been helpful to me.

[Nachshon]

It's generally overlooked by the Chri*tian versions, and avoided in the rabbinic versions.
I'll warn you, though, my basic purpose here is to give the other side of the story. I think I'm the only one here who completely rejects Talmud as an authority of any kind. Others don't accept it lock, stock, and barrel, but at least have respect for it as a possible source of challacha. I choose to ignore it almost completely, except as a historical referrence.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Tikva]

Any thoughts on this information I found?

The reason Indigo is so favored among believers today is that it is a clean alternative to the unkosher snail (Murex trunculus) dye commonly used. (Leviticus 11:11-12). It is the same exact chemical make-up of the traditionally used snail dye, except instead of deriving from the blood of an unclean sea creature, it is made from the natural Indigo plant Indigofera Tinctoria. It is noted by the rabbinates that "Kela Ilan" (Indigofera Tinctoria) has consistently been identified as indigo (Aruch), which is blue. The blue dye obtained from the Murex trunculus snail is molecularly equivalent to the dye obtained from the kela ilan plant. (Royal Purple, p.175; Sterman, p.66).

[Chizuk Emunah]

Natanel, how many Hebrew words are there for the colour blue?

There are only two achi. They are "kachol" and "techelet." However, the specifically uses the word "techelet." Interestingly enough, the Sages said this regarding it's use: Techelet is similar to the color of the sea, the sea to the sky, and the sky to HaShem's Throne of Glory. So by wearing techelet an individual has the potential to remain focused on the K'vod of HaShem.

It is commanded that they be chains in Deut. 22:12. It doesn't use the word tzit-tzit in this verse, but g'diyl, which is a chain.

This mitzvah is juxtaposed over the mitzvah found in B'midbar 15:38. The two go together. Actually, the word for chain is "sharsheret", while "g'diyl" simply means twisted fringe.

Shalom,
Natanel


Edit: Guess I should have refreshed the screen before posting. Tikva, there are some authorities that say that if the same blue color passes a certain scientific test, then it is still permissible to use as techelet even though it does not come from the chilazon.

[Nachshon]

Natanel, my contention is that both of these are generic terms for "blue." This is the contention of the Karaite community as a whole, aswell. I don't believe it referrs to a specific colour or usage. In Hadassa, the hangings of the court of the king of Persia are referred to as being Techellet, are they not?

I think it referrs to chains, as it appears in I Kings 7:17. (My fingers keep wanting to hit the 8. lol.)

Tikva, that is an interesting idea. Cool.

[Chizuk Emunah]

nachshon said:

Natanel, my contention is that both of these are generic terms for "blue." This is the contention of the Karaite community as a whole, aswell. I don't believe it referrs to a specific colour or usage. In Hadassa, the hangings of the court of the king of Persia are referred to as being Techellet, are they not?

I think it referrs to chains, as it appears in I Kings 7:17. (My fingers keep wanting to hit the 8. lol.)

Tikva, that is an interesting idea. Cool.

And I suppose I don't have a problem with it, so long as it meets the stringent requirements of being equivalent to the chilazon.

They may be, I'll have to double-check that reference.

As for the reference in Melachim Alef 7:17, it uses the same word as the , "g'diyl." Again, it translates as twisted fringe, but not necessarily a chain.

[Nachshon]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't exactly make sense. Maybe I'm just confused, but it sounds like you've agreed with me and disagreed with me in the same breath. Would you mind clarifying? I think I'm just confused.
It says that they are wreathes (g'diliym) of chains (sharashroth) so you may very well be right on that score.
Hadassa 1:6. Techellet appears twice.
It is also interesting that the only term that I have been able to find for "blue" in all of the Hebrew Scriptures is techellet. Every referrence appears to be techellet. Whether it is Ezekiel talking about what the merchants brought to Tyre from Egypt (Yekhezkiel 27:7) or whether it was the Chronicler talking about the building of the Temple. (Ch. 3:14)

Shalom,
David

[Chizuk Emunah]

Well, maybe I am.

On the one hand, the (and as you pointed out all Scripture), uses the word "techelet" when referring to blue.

What I am open to (after some additional research) is using different sources for the blue die, so long as they pass the afore-mentioned stringent test.

[Nachshon]

What I am trying to say is why is the test necessary? There is only one word used for blue in scripture, and it applies to all sorts of different things, from that used in the Temple, to that used by pagan kings. Why, then, does it have to be a certain shade of blue?

[Pioneer]

nachshon said:

What I am trying to say is why is the test necessary? There is only one word used for blue in scripture, and it applies to all sorts of different things, from that used in the Temple, to that used by pagan kings. Why, then, does it have to be a certain shade of blue?

I only want to make one statement, the color blue is described from sky/sea blue on a sunny day to the almost black blue of the Eastern sky, sapphire is one of those shades and is used in the scripture even outside of the Sapphire stone.
I need to agree the test is needed.
Shalom

[Nachshon]

Pioneer, I'm afraid that isn't making sense to me. Could you elucidate?

[Pioneer]

You reference blue as one color, yet there are interchangable meanings to the word blue and violet, being one in the same. Purple and blue come from different shellfish, chelzon of the Hebrew is one of those shellfish where tehelek/blue is derived, Royal Blue it is said to be.
If you say blue and select a Navy Blue and I say blue and select sapphire, who is right?
Isn't this what is said to be each man is right in his own eyes?
I just know there are shades of blue. There must be some way to quantify the shade.

Shalom

[Nachshon]

Why is that necessary? What if they were both blue? What if blue is a generic term, not a specific one? What if Father doesn't really care what shade of blue we use? I see no place where He says He does.
I would say that it isn't every man doing what is right in his own eyes, because I don't think that another shade is wrong. I don't think that mine is any more right than yours. The only thing that bothers me about the Rabbinic way of doing it is that they insist that theirs is the only way, and thus add to the .

Shalom,
David

[Pioneer]

nachshon said:

Why is that necessary? What if they were both blue? What if blue is a generic term, not a specific one? What if Father doesn't really care what shade of blue we use? I see no place where He says He does.
I would say that it isn't every man doing what is right in his own eyes, because I don't think that another shade is wrong. I don't think that mine is any more right than yours. The only thing that bothers me about the Rabbinic way of doing it is that they insist that theirs is the only way, and thus add to the .

Shalom,
David

If "Good Enough" is your way, why does Yeshua say that the way is narrow? It seems to me as he tightened the mitzvot, he made the WAY much narrower than Moshe!
Glad, I am not a Teacher!

I've had my say.

Shalom