Bob
Junior Member
Posts: 67
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Post by Bob on Dec 19, 2008 22:12:36 GMT -8
I just came to a horrible realization... since Sabbath starts at sundown, what about those of us who live in a hemisphere where sundown comes very early part of the year. I live in NW Montana. Sundown here today was at 4:44 pm. I have an 8-5 job. Does this mean that I am breaking  by working on the Sabbath? How if I dont get off work until after sundown can I kindle sabbath lights without breaking the sabbath? |
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Post by Mark on Dec 20, 2008 5:51:22 GMT -8
Hi Bob, First, candle lighting is a tradition and not a mitzvah. We quite rarely light Sabbath candles in our home; primarily because making the Sabbath simple is more important to us. Instead of breaking out the fine china for Sabbath... which, I think we don't have any... we serve on paper plates so that there is no more work to be done after the meal than absolutely necessary. It would be worth addressing your concern about working on the Sabbath to your employer. Technically, he or she has a legal obligation to comply. It may mean something like working an extra half an hour earlier in the week so that you can leave early on Sabbath Take a look at this: www.allbusiness.com/human-resources/workplace-health-safety-employment/2975804-1.html |
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Post by vickilynn on Dec 22, 2008 10:32:57 GMT -8
Shalom Bob,
I really LIKE Mark's answer. It is one of the most balanced and Scriptural replies to this question that I have seen.
I agree, one cannot "break" the Sabbath if the heart of the worshiper is devoted to honoring HaShem and His Sabbath, but not "keeping" it.
We do light the Shabbos candles (actually, our 9 year old lights them) every Friday night, but we light them when we are ready, and sometimes, in the Winter, it is past sundown. We do not make the laws of men our goal, but the words of HaShem in His Word.
I commend you for seeking to honor the Sabbath and I pray you will continue to do so with joy! But remember, the burden is not placed upon us to adhere to man's rules, but G-d's Words.
~~In Messiah Yeshua,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8
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Post by lawrenceofisrael on Dec 22, 2008 11:36:02 GMT -8
to Vickilynn.
You are completely right. Man made traditions are sometimes useful sometimes not. But one thing i want to mention is that based on what i know any lighting of fire is forbidden on the Shabbat so if you light the candles after sundown your doing something wrong i guess.
This is not supposed to be an insult or anything just a well-meant advice.
Peace and blessings be upon all of you.
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Post by vickilynn on Dec 22, 2008 12:07:05 GMT -8
Shalom Lawrence,
Thank you so much for your reply.
I do have to disagree that one is doing something "wrong" if they light the Shabbos candles after sundown.
Let's look at these verses in context and see if they apply. Remember if we break ONE Law, we break them all. Do we "keep" every command here?
Exodus 35
1And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD hath commanded, that ye should do them.
2Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
3Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
4And Moses spake unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the LORD commanded, saying,
5Take ye from among you an offering unto the LORD: whosoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it, an offering of the LORD; gold, and silver, and brass,
6And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair,
7And rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and shittim wood,
8And oil for the light, and spices for anointing oil, and for the sweet incense,
9And onyx stones, and stones to be set for the ephod, and for the breastplate.
10And every wise hearted among you shall come, and make all that the LORD hath commanded;
11The tabernacle, his tent, and his covering, his taches, and his boards, his bars, his pillars, and his sockets,
12The ark, and the staves thereof, with the mercy seat, and the vail of the covering,
13The table, and his staves, and all his vessels, and the shewbread,
14The candlestick also for the light, and his furniture, and his lamps, with the oil for the light,
15And the incense altar, and his staves, and the anointing oil, and the sweet incense, and the hanging for the door at the entering in of the tabernacle,
16The altar of burnt offering, with his brasen grate, his staves, and all his vessels, the laver and his foot,
17The hangings of the court, his pillars, and their sockets, and the hanging for the door of the court,
18The pins of the tabernacle, and the pins of the court, and their cords,
19The cloths of service, to do service in the holy place, the holy garments for Aaron the priest, and the garments of his sons, to minister in the priest's office.
20And all the congregation of the children of Israel departed from the presence of Moses.
21And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing, and they brought the LORD's offering to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments.
22And they came, both men and women, as many as were willing hearted, and brought bracelets, and earrings, and rings, and tablets, all jewels of gold: and every man that offered offered an offering of gold unto the LORD.
23And every man, with whom was found blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair, and red skins of rams, and badgers' skins, brought them.
24Every one that did offer an offering of silver and brass brought the LORD's offering: and every man, with whom was found shittim wood for any work of the service, brought it.
25And all the women that were wise hearted did spin with their hands, and brought that which they had spun, both of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine linen.
26And all the women whose heart stirred them up in wisdom spun goats' hair.
27And the rulers brought onyx stones, and stones to be set, for the ephod, and for the breastplate;
28And spice, and oil for the light, and for the anointing oil, and for the sweet incense.
29The children of Israel brought a willing offering unto the LORD, every man and woman, whose heart made them willing to bring for all manner of work, which the LORD had commanded to be made by the hand of Moses.
30And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the LORD hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;
31And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;
32And to devise curious works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
33And in the cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of wood, to make any manner of cunning work.
34And he hath put in his heart that he may teach, both he, and Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan.
35Them hath he filled with wisdom of heart, to work all manner of work, of the engraver, and of the cunning workman, and of the embroiderer, in blue, and in purple, in scarlet, and in fine linen, and of the weaver, even of them that do any work, and of those that devise cunning work.
~~In Messiah Yeshua,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8
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Post by Mark on Dec 22, 2008 12:24:51 GMT -8
There are about half a gazillion interpretations as to what it means to kindle fire on the Sabbath. I've recentlt heard it simply to mean not to engage in heated debate. Personally, we adhere to strict and simple not lighting a match after sundown; but don't gasp in utter horror should some interpret the passage a different way.
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dodi
New Member
Posts: 43
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Post by dodi on Dec 22, 2008 14:51:11 GMT -8
Most of the Messianic believers that I know use the time of 6pm for candle lighting no matter what time of the year it is. They tend to do this because 6pm is considered evening no matter if it's daylight or not.
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Post by vickilynn on Dec 22, 2008 21:02:01 GMT -8
Shalom,
Interesting.
Personally, we don't adhere to not lighting a match after sundown and we don't believe that "breaks" the Sabbath.
Our keeping the Sabbath holy has to do with more of the heart of the worshiper and how we honor the Sabbath and keep it holy by honoring Yeshua.
I do not believe we are "under" the Law as we were before Yeshua. We don't sacrifice animals in the Temple either.
~~In Messiah Yeshua,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8
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Post by lawrenceofisrael on Dec 23, 2008 5:06:05 GMT -8
to vickilynn.
We are unable to sacrifice animals because the temple is destroyed and i personally don´t know any levite :-)
We are not under the law as before Yeshua simply because we are saved from what the law couldn´t save us from, which is death.
To keep the shabbat in the heart is important but doesn´t subtitute physical shabbat keeping. It´s just as if we said that murder is ok if you don´t support it in your heart and honor Yeshua through it.
The requirments are the same for us as much as for those before us and it´s not a burden but a blessing.
Yeshua said in Matisyahu 5: That whoever changes one of the smallest commandments will be held accountable for it.
Coming back to sacrifices. Yeshua is our ultimate sacrifice and our high priest, thus he is fulfilling these commandments daily for us.
Peace and blessings be upon all of you.
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Post by vickilynn on Dec 23, 2008 7:16:18 GMT -8
The subject as to whether or not we should keep the commands of the Old Testament has certainly been discussed at length here: Shalom Mark, For the sake of an old <not so good eyes and less energy> Jewish Momma... Would you please encapsulate the many many threads your posted and please state this board's stand on whether a Believer in Yeshua lighting a Shabbos candle after sundown is considered by you all to be sin. Thank you. ~~In Messiah Yeshua, Vickilynn Micah 6:8 |
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Post by vickilynn on Dec 23, 2008 7:27:46 GMT -8
to vickilynn. We are unable to sacrifice animals because the temple is destroyed and i personally don´t know any levite :-)<<< Shalom Lawrence, I am a Levite.  However, the Brit Hadasha states that WE (Believers in Yeshua) are the Temple of the Ruach HaKodesh. If there were a physical Temple, I would not sacrifice, even though the Law demands it, because Yeshua's sacrifice fulfilled the need for animal sacrifices for eternity. SO, it is not a matter that there is no physical Temple, or no Levite close by, it is that these things under the Law have been replaced by a better way, which is Yeshua. No more sacrifices are required ever! Yet, it IS in the Law and we "break" that Law every day according to your analogy. So, you are saying if I, as a child of the King Yeshua, light a Shabbos candle after sundown, then it is akin to murder? How can you honor Yeshua through murder? In the passage I posted, do you bring a "willing offering" to Adonai each Shabbos? If not, are you committing sin? I'm sorry, I do not believe the Scriptures agree with you that one is the same as the other. Those instructions were given at a specific instance for a specific purpose. Yeshua is the Light of the Word and the reason we light the Shabbos candles. HOW do we keep the Sabbath holy? By lighting or not lighting fire, or by lifting up and honoring Yeshua? We say the latter and we believe the specifics as to how are not the same. Shalom to you as well! ~~In Messiah Yeshua, Vickilynn Micah 6:8 |
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Post by lawrenceofisrael on Dec 23, 2008 15:15:05 GMT -8
Ok
We keep the Shabbat holy by doing exactly what God has told us. One thing is to honor Yeshua another one to not light fire.
You said the commandments were given for a specific time. That is incorrect and very dangerous to say. Why? Because God doesnt change, neither does his word and he said it is eternal. Both his grace and his law are eternal.
And i did not say that lighting candles after sundown is like murder you´re misquoting me.
Im saying that you could turn any word of God into something different if you act like you do.
Why do we have christmas and easter. Why do we have metal crosses and icons in so many homes. Because people thought like you are right now. They said it is all for honoring Yeshua when in fact it is FORBIDDEN and makes you a disbeliever.
This is not supposed to be an insult but i have faith in Yeshua and i am saved so it is my duty to warn you and tell you the truth.
And the truth is given in the bible. You just have to accept it over you´re opinion.
Peace and blessings be upon you all.
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Post by vickilynn on Dec 23, 2008 16:19:29 GMT -8
Shalom Lawrence,
My point is, take that "light fire" commandment in context of to whom and when it was written. If you follow ALL the commandments of the time, you would be sacrificing animals.
Actually, G-d never changes, but the way He deals with His children changes. It is all over the Scriptures!
For example, before he spoke to us through the Prophets, now He speaks through His Son.
Hebrews 1:1-2
1 G-d, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world
The Law does not offer salvation, only Yeshua does.
Hebrews 7:18-19
For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness
for the Law made nothing perfect, and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to G-d.[/u]
22 so much the more also Yeshua has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
23-24 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,
but Yeshua, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
Actually Brother, I'm not misquoting you at all. I asked you to clarify your point relating this topic to murder.
You said:
And I asked you to clarify:
Instead of getting all upset and inferring that I am a "disbeliever" (which you cannot judge), please just clarify your words as I asked.
Who are you to judge another Believer's walk with Yeshua based upon your interpretation? Nowhere is having a cross (metal or not), or celebrating the birth of the Messiah forbidden, this is your own opinion. Be careful not to dare to judge another Believer by your own standards. THIS is sin.
Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the L-rd is able to make him stand.
Galatians 2:15-16
15"We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Messiah Yeshua, even we have believed in Messiah Yeshua, so that we may be justified by faith in Messiah and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of G-d; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Lighting or not lighting a candle does not affect salvation and one is not a "disbeliever" because they light a candle after sundown, even though that is your opinion. Please, read the Scriptures.
What you are preaching is Phariseeism, not the Gospel of Yeshua. Salvation is not based upon lighting or not lighting a candle or having a cross, but upon faith in Messiah and accepting His sacrifice on our behalf. You are preaching salvation by works, but the Scriptures say differently.
2 Timothy 1:8-9
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our L-rd or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of G-d, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Messiah Yeshua from all eternity,
So you tell me how righteous you are and how saved you are by not lighting a candle after sundown, yet with your words you judge the heart motives of a servant of Yeshua's?
James 3:8-11
But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.
With it we bless our L-rd and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of G-d; from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.
~~In Messiah Yeshua,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8
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Post by Mark on Dec 23, 2008 17:14:06 GMT -8
HI Vikilynn, I would not dare presume to speak on behalf of this forum because it is certainly an eclectic mix. Yet the more you are exposed to the Jewish method, the more you understand that it is the wrestling with things that brings life to it. There is a specific thread on kindling a fire theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=observant&action=display&thread=556but I would not suggest that from it you will find anything conclusive at all. |
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by working on the Sabbath? How if I dont get off work until after sundown can I kindle sabbath lights without breaking the sabbath?
