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Post by vickilynn on Dec 23, 2008 17:49:23 GMT -8
Shalom Mark,
What I was asking, does this board have a stand on this specific issue, or is it left up to each Believer? If it is left up to each Believer, what is the board's stand on one Believer calling another a "disbeliever" based on lighting candles after sundown?
(BTW, I have read the Rules and Guidelines.)
I'm sorry, but I sincerely don't understand the above comment. The "Jewish method"?
I am Jewish, and was raised Jewish, so I'm pretty confused as to what you mean by being more exposed to "the Jewish method". Can you explain please?
See above. Again, are you making the assumption that I am not familiar with being Jewish or Jewish life and beliefs?
Personally, I don't mind lively and challenging discussion and I feel I learn and grow a lot in these discussions, but I object when someone becomes accused of not being a Believer based on things such as lighting Shabbos candles after sundown, owning a cross or celebrating Christmas.
Thank you! I'll check it out.
I do know what I personally believe now from Scripture, but I am always open to new revelation from G-d. What I was looking for is what this board's stand is in case I am violating your guidelines by posting my beliefs that obviously differ from the majority here. I would not want to do that.
Thank you,
~~In Messiah Yeshua,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8
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Post by Mark on Dec 24, 2008 5:15:09 GMT -8
Hi Vickilynn, Sorry about the confusion. When I refer to the Jewish method, it is the process of wrestling with the text of Scripture together. It is an active discussion between two parties, questioning, debating, stretching the boundaries of our understanding by continually being challenged in our opinion. The end result is not necessarily to gain conclusion, to win or lose the argument; but to have lived the text in a way that we could not have contemplatively on our own. When you ask "does this board have a specific stand on this issue", do you mean me or Reuel Dillon as the Administrators? Well, yes, we do have a specific stand for our selves. And while we are confident that our position is biblically sound, we don't presume to inforce it upon others in the community (even if that were in some way possible). I have nine children. When I say that to folks, usually they think of nine spaces at the dinner table or a car that holds eleven people, or the number of spaces available for social security numbers on the tax form. They don't think of nine individual people in various stages of growth and maturity, unique personalities, skills and attributes. Lots of things need to get done around the house. Sometimes I just take care of it, not saying anything to anyone. Sometimes I invite one to "help" me, watching as I work, handing me tools or holding things for me. Sometimes, I actively teach them how to do the thing. Sometimes I leave it as an instruction that one of them can do on their own. Soemtimes I give them an instruction that will stretch them, knowing that they will need to come to me for help: once they've experienced the problem a little, we can work through it together. All of these different methods are ways that man approaches the  . For most, it is just there and they know it gets done; but they don't have to put any thought into it. Some look into the passively as an obsoerver. Some consider it simply an intellectual exercise of learning and understanding. Some launch out to learn and do it on their own. Yet, the more I learn the ways of Adonai and goodness of His Word, I also understand how small and simple I really am: how the simplest of principles within are beyond my reach. I don't get it and I can't presume to teach others. That's when I realize how the Father has given us His , His instruction, not for us to go out and do it on our own; but to touch it with our own hands, then come back to Him, saying, "Dad, I don't understand. I need Your help." It is this phylosophy of direction that keeps me from saying, "This is what says and this is how you shall apply it." What valuable time in relationship with the Father you may miss because I have stepped in and "taken care of it for you", possibly botching the whole thing. He must have slapped His forehead and shaken His head in frustration a thousand times with me. It is easy for me to forget that you have a history of Jewish culture. I apologize that I tend to presume otherwise. You are actually rare in that as far as members of this forum go. Most came from a Christain upbringing, even if their geneological heritage had some Jewish identity. I am also aware, though, that I am never simply addressing one individual when writing in a public forum. When I respond to you directly, it is with the understanding that others who may share your question, don't necessarily share your experience or history. When providing the big list of forum Observance, it was with the understanding that others who see your question will wonder what this whole Observance thing is all about. The discussions are pretty spread out as far as that general understanding as to whether or not is of value. The list may be of benefit to some who stumble onto this question new. I really appreciate your coming into the forum. I look forward to learning from you and wrestling together, and learning of Him. Mark |
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Post by vickilynn on Dec 24, 2008 7:41:58 GMT -8
Shalom Mark,
Your post brought tears to this old Jewish Momma. Seriously.
What a beautiful, grace-filled perspective and one that conflicts with denominational and human thought, but is born only of the Ruach HaKodesh.
Thank you Brother. I understand better now and I can appreciate your position better.
I sincerely did not wish to violate your board and would leave if that was in the best of the community here.
Please pray that I would always be as gracious and loving in my interactions here as you and as Yeshua, our example. And that even in the passion and zeal of sharing my understanding, that I would be filled with grace and love for others with differing perspectives.
In Messiah Yeshua,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8
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Bob
Junior Member
Posts: 67
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Post by Bob on Dec 25, 2008 22:31:59 GMT -8
Based on the posts it appears that Shabbat candle lighting may not be often done in messianic homes. so..., where did the tradition for lighting candles to begin the shabbat start?
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Bob
Junior Member
Posts: 67
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Post by Bob on Dec 25, 2008 22:35:12 GMT -8
One other question...
What is the meaning behind lighting the candles to start Shabbat and lighting a special candle to end with Havdalah?
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Post by vickilynn on Dec 26, 2008 7:54:52 GMT -8
Based on the posts it appears that Shabbat candle lighting may not be often done in messianic homes. Shalom Bob, I hafta stop you right there. That's not an accurate assumption. Personally, I have not heard that Messianic Believers do NOT light the Shabbos candles except for one person here! In fact, every Messianic gathering I have ever been to in 30+ years, whether in a home group, home, congregation or gathering of any kind, the Shabbos candles are ALWAYS lit on Friday night. |
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Bob
Junior Member
Posts: 67
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Post by Bob on Dec 26, 2008 9:45:26 GMT -8
I am sorry vickilynn.
I must have misunderstood what I was reading in this thread. I did not mean to offend.
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Post by vickilynn on Dec 26, 2008 10:27:44 GMT -8
Shalom Bob, Oh NO!! No, no! I am not offended and please forgive me if I gave you that impression. I write passionately, is all.  And it may come across in a way I don't intend. You did not offend at all! I was simply sharing that the assumption did not line up with my experience. Please, continue! And, I hope people will respond to your questions, they are good ones!! ~~In Messiah Yeshua, Vickilynn Micah 6:8 |
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Post by chrisg on Mar 21, 2016 10:17:59 GMT -8
I just came to a horrible realization... since Sabbath starts at sundown, what about those of us who live in a hemisphere where sundown comes very early part of the year. I live in NW Montana. Sundown here today was at 4:44 pm. I have an 8-5 job. Does this mean that I am breaking by working on the Sabbath? How if I dont get off work until after sundown can I kindle sabbath lights without breaking the sabbath? Going back to the original post, I have a similar question. Here in the UK in summer, 'sundown' doesn't happen till maybe 10pm. That always seems a little late for eating a meal and I cannot see my family (or me either) waiting till 10pm before we eat dinner. Is there a specific time (such as the 6pm I was always led to believe was the start of the Jewish day) when we can officially start Sabbath? |
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Post by alon on Mar 21, 2016 18:46:08 GMT -8
I just came to a horrible realization... since Sabbath starts at sundown, what about those of us who live in a hemisphere where sundown comes very early part of the year. I live in NW Montana. Sundown here today was at 4:44 pm. I have an 8-5 job. Does this mean that I am breaking by working on the Sabbath? How if I dont get off work until after sundown can I kindle sabbath lights without breaking the sabbath? Going back to the original post, I have a similar question. Here in the UK in summer, 'sundown' doesn't happen till maybe 10pm. That always seems a little late for eating a meal and I cannot see my family (or me either) waiting till 10pm before we eat dinner. Is there a specific time (such as the 6pm I was always led to believe was the start of the Jewish day) when we can officially start Sabbath? Genesis 1:5 (ESV) God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
Genesis 2:2-3 (ESV) And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.
Exodus 20:8-11 (ESV) “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
God set the reckoning for a day as starting at sundown; and He set Shabbat aside as being holy. So from sundown Friday, which is Erev Shabbat on our Gregorian calendars (loose translation, Shabbat eve) to sundown Saturday is the Biblical Shabbat. But you raise a good point. I live roughly on the same latitude as you do now (Washington State) and we have the same problem. 4:00 PM in winter is before most people get off work, and 10:00 PM (actually a bit later at the solstice) in summer is kind of late. So we do the best we can.
By all means, eat before ten. You can still light the Shabbat candles at sundown if you wish. Drink some grape juice, or wine if you prefer, and eat a piece of challa (bread) together. And eat later than four if you need to. Same thing, you can still drink a small amount of juice and eat a small piece of challa without ruining supper. Remember too that many of these practices are traditions by which Judaism marks Shabbat, setting it aside as holy. So use them as guidelines. But they are beautiful ways of honoring God and reminding us that His Shabbat is special, different. I do what I can. And I will tell you it is a blessing to me whenever I am invited over to the house of some of our congregation for either Shabbat meal or havdalah, which marks the beginning of the new week (done just after sundown Sat, so it has the effect of marking the end of Shabbat as well).
Work into this slowly. As long as you are trying and improving God will honor that. Don’t make it difficult either. Many of the things are Jewish tradition. These traditions do not conflict with scripture, and they can be a beautiful way to set aside the Shabbat, marking it as holy. That is the main thing is that you set aside the Sabbath, separating it from the common days. Sundown to sundown of the seventh day, no unnecessary work. But you don’t have to do any elaborate rituals, as long as you keep it holy- set apart.
Living in a divided house, I don’t even do any of the rituals mentioned unless I am with our group (about seven people which is a satellite of the main synagogue). And I have to travel for that. Living in a rural area, our halacha is we can drive on Shabbat, but not unnecessarily. Otherwise we couldn’t even get together. Even the parent synagogue wouldn’t have anyone attending. It is the same with the parent synagogue of this forum.
I don’t know where the 6:00 idea came from. Possibly from Jews in latitudes like Alaska or Finland. In their extreme latitudes at least two days a year there would be no evening or morning! Halacha in places like that would tend to be a bit different, I suspect. It could also come from some Christian misunderstanding, or some Rabbi could have come up with it. If you have information on it that would be something I'd be interested in seeing.
Dan C
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. For most, it is just there and they know it gets done; but they don't have to put any thought into it. Some look into the 
And it may come across in a way I don't intend. You did not offend at all!
