Talmud do, Talmud don't?

[Yitzchak]

Ed,

Thank you for the kind words. I would also warn us all to remember to put the scriptures and Yeshua first in all of our studies.

The Talmud is a good source to glean from, but it is a commentary of men.

The must be our foundation, and the guide for all that we do.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Walter]

I don't understand why followers of Yeshua want to esteem and use a book that was writen by men who deny Yeshua and thus don't know The Father. ;D

They are blinded guides who can't properly understand Scripture, that don't have The Spirit of Elohim to lead them into Truth.

Why turn to un-regenerated men who lacked the Wisdom of Elohim when we have The Spirit of Elohim and The Mind of Messiah.

[Pioneer]

walter said:

I don't understand why followers of Yeshua want to esteem and use a book that was writen by men who deny Yeshua and thus don't know The Father. ;D

They are blinded guides who can't properly understand Scripture, that don't have The Spirit of Elohim to lead them into Truth.

Why turn to un-regenerated men who lacked the Wisdom of Elohim when we have The Spirit of Elohim and The Mind of Messiah.

Please, Walter, since you have the mind of Messiah, can you tell me why no one asked Yeshua, just how do we store up treasure in heaven? I don't recall anyone questioning him nor do I recall him explaining the concept, the Holy Spirit had not come at this point. So clue us in, will you please?
If you can't answer, I can tell you why no one asked.

Shalom

[Walter]

pioneer said:

Please, Walter, since you have the mind of Messiah, can you tell me why no one asked Yeshua, just how do we store up treasure in heaven? I don't recall anyone questioning him nor do I recall him explaining the concept, the Holy Spirit had not come at this point. So clue us in, will you please?
If you can't answer, I can tell you why no one asked.

Shalom

We DON'T know that no one asked Yeshua, He said alot that was not recorded in Scripture.

But I do know that I'm NOT going to ask lost people for the answer why Yeshua did or didn't do something.

From what I understand of the Talmud it was written after 100 ad by non-Messianic religious leaders.

These were some of the people that were persecuting the followers of the way.

So why do I want to value their man-made traditions, teachings, and rules (oral law).

Would I go to muslims or the koran to better understand Elohim?
Or hindus?
Or buddists?
Or pagans?

Why reject one set of man-made religious traditions to pick up another?

[Chizuk Emunah]

Walter,

Before you make any judgements, please take a couple minutes to read all the posts in this thread.

As Jews and Goyim who have joined themselves to Israel, the Talmud is not only relevant, but also holds much information that we can use in guiding our halacha (the way we live ).

So long as one always remembers that the is the foundation, then as Yitzchak, and many of us have said, the Talmud is a good source to glean from. And remember, not all traditions are bad.

By the way, what Pioneer was trying to hint at was that Y'hoshua HaMoshiach taught and agreed with much of what was written in the Mishna and Talmud.


Shalom,
Natanel

[Walter]

But they were not written when Yeshua was walking the earth.

Yeshua's harshest criticisms were towards the Jewish religious leaders and thier man-made teachings.

YHWH gave us enough with His laws and commandments without adding man's oral laws.


Is Scripture ALONE sufficent to develop and maintain a relationship with the Father and His Son Yeshua?


Like I said, why do I want to goto lost men for matters of Faith?

How can they teach me about an Elohim they don't know?

How are they going to tell me to do something when they themselves don't get it right?

No not all man-made traditions are bad, but they they become important to faith they are.


Again I ask

Is Scripture ALONE sufficent to develop and maintain a relationship with the Father and His Son Yeshua?

[Yitzchak]

walter said:

But they were not written when Yeshua was walking the earth.

Neither were the New Covenant Scriptures, but that is not really relevant

Yeshua's harshest criticisms were towards the Jewish religious leaders and thier man-made teachings.

Yeshua's harshest criticisms were towards those Jewish leaders who placed burdens upon men, which were not required by the . Not all of the religious leaders.

YHWH gave us enough with His laws and commandments without adding man's oral laws.

There is no such word as "YHWH" in Hebrew. This is a misinterpretation. There is only YHVH with no vowels, and this is why we use Adonai.

Is Scripture ALONE sufficent to develop and maintain a relationship with the Father and His Son Yeshua?

If you had read the entire thread, as you were asked earlier, you will not that most of us here take a very simple stance. The is the foundation of everything we believe, which then runs its thread throughout the rest of the Tanakh, and Brit Chadasha.

These should be the only guides for our lives, placing Yeshua first in all things.

Are there things in the Talmud that are bad? Absolutely!!! How about we discuss Matthew Henry, and the myriad of other Christian commentaries, by which most believers form their theology. Are we simply to say that because they believe in Yeshua they have to be correct?

The fact is that all commentaries are flawed, because they are the words of men. I do not hold that because one is a believer that somehow there insight is any better than one who is not. I would not discount pious Jewish sages that dedicated their lives to the study of , in the way that they thought they were serving G-d.

Keep in mind that there was a criminal who entered paradise at the last moments of his life. I like to believe that the loving G-d that I serve is able at the last moments of anyone's life to reveal the Moshiach. There is only one way to G-d, and that is Yeshua, but we have no idea what happens at the end.

I thank G-d that you and I are not the decision makers.

Like I said, why do I want to goto lost men for matters of Faith?

No one here is telling you that you should.

How can they teach me about an Elohim they don't know?

I would be careful on this one. Elohim speaks of the plurality of G-d, and while they do not accept Moshiach as being part of that plurality they do recognize Avinu.

How are they going to tell me to do something when they themselves don't get it right?

And who here has gotten it right. Guard yourself that you do not get too arrogant, and thank G-d that He pulled you out of the darkness when He did.

None of can get it right, and that is why we need the sacrifice of Yeshua.

No not all man-made traditions are bad, but they they become important to faith they are.

Again, there is not one person here who will tell you that the Talmud or any other extra biblical work is required for faith. You cannot quote one single quote on this thread that states this.

Again I ask

Is Scripture ALONE sufficent to develop and maintain a relationship with the Father and His Son Yeshua?

And again I tell you as was suggested before, that if you had read the entire thread you will see that we covered this. Show me one instance where anyone here stated that you needed anything but the scriptures to maintain a relationship with Avinu and HaBen?

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Pioneer]

walter said:

But they were not written when Yeshua was walking the earth.

Yeshua's harshest criticisms were towards the Jewish religious leaders and thier man-made teachings.

YHWH gave us enough with His laws and commandments without adding man's oral laws.


Is Scripture ALONE sufficent to develop and maintain a relationship with the Father and His Son Yeshua?


Like I said, why do I want to goto lost men for matters of Faith?

How can they teach me about an Elohim they don't know?

How are they going to tell me to do something when they themselves don't get it right?

No not all man-made traditions are bad, but they they become important to faith they are.


Again I ask

Is Scripture ALONE sufficent to develop and maintain a relationship with the Father and His Son Yeshua?

Scripture alone is enough to get you saved. If this is your goal, then sit down and put your heels up and enjoy.
But if you want to be in the "Elect" then do the "Will of the father"
If you think God wasted 4000 years on the Hebrews you are like a lot of anti-semites.

Ro. 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Ro.11:8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day."

11 So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

23 And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

We are not to boast over the branches.

If the mission of the Messiah was to create a knit together body(the Christian Church), he is a colossal failure.

But if his mission was to be a breach maker to tear down the wall of separation between Israel and the nations, whereby the gospel went out into all the nations and in the process some of all the nations gave up idol worship and turned to the One God. Then he is a colossal success!
My Jewish Teacher teaches this very thing and it certainly is provable with the complete bible.

I came to God through an almost identical situation as you, but the Jesus that I discovered did not do any of the things the Christian Church celebrates as honor to him. I saw Jew who kept what the Father taught him, spoke the words the Father gave him, went to the Temple read from the Tanack, critisized some of the traditions and upheld some of them.
Until I became aware of how one is to worship the one God, I really didn't know my savior.
When you study the and prove as the Bereans did every word, then you will find yourself walking in the footsteps of Sha'ul as he walks in the Messiahs footsteps. BTW Jesus/Yeshua was and is and always will be a Jew.
God has every thing under control and when Yeshua comes again all those people that you can't seem to learn from will be awakened/restored to hear and see and those who are watching for the coming of the Messiah will see him coming as the lightining from the East to the West and we will see him as he is.

Please do not try to errect another wall of separation between us and the searching Hebrew! Yeshua broke that breach for the Truth the Way and the Life could go forth into all the world and some might be saved. All who do the will of God will have a great chance of being "Elected."

We all need to open our minds not close them around any dogma.

Shalom

[Walter]

pioneer said:

Please do not try to errect another wall of separation between us and the searching Hebrew! Yeshua broke that breach for the Truth the Way and the Life could go forth into all the world and some might be saved. All who do the will of God will have a great chance of being "Elected."

We all need to open our minds not close them around any dogma.

Shalom

You are adding alot more to my meaning than what I've posted and making alot of assumptions about what I think.

I'm NOT errecting a "wall" by saying I don't think I need to consult a book writen my men that deny Yeshua to grow in my faith or knowledge of YHWH

Though I can see reading it to get an idea of the mindset of the Jews that have not accepted Messiah

pioneer said:

Ro. 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Ro.11:8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day."

11 So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

23 And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

We are not to boast over the branches.



When you study the and prove as the Bereans did every word, then you will find yourself walking in the footsteps of Sha'ul as he walks in the Messiahs footsteps. BTW Jesus/Yeshua was and is and always will be a Jew.
God has every thing under control and when Yeshua comes again all those people that you can't seem to learn from will be awakened/restored to hear and see and those who are watching for the coming of the Messiah will see him coming as the lightining from the East to the West and we will see him as he is.

I have a grasp on this - I agree with what you said about studying , and as the topic is about the talmud, that is what I'm disagreeing with, the need of studing or consulting it.

To my understanding, thr great tribulation is all about restoring Israel, and bring them to Messiah and back to YHWH.

But don't you think there are enough wise and knowledgeable Jews that have accepted and know Yeshua without having to turn to those that have not accepted Messiah or know YHWH?

pioneer said:

Scripture alone is enough to get you saved. If this is your goal, then sit down and put your heels up and enjoy.
But if you want to be in the "Elect" then do the "Will of the father"
If you think God wasted 4000 years on the Hebrews you are like a lot of anti-semites.

Since this topic is talmud, and you seem to dislike that I won't accept or respect it, are you implying I can't know and do the will of The Father without it?

That I need MORE (uninspired man written) writings than The Word of YHWH - His Scripture?


You mention the Bereans - they consulted SCRIPTURE - not writings and teachins of men that DENY Messiah

And NO I don't think YHWH wasted 4000 years
Because thouse years were about HIM

They were needed to show the need for a Savior

They were also for us nowadays, that we can read SCRIPTURE and see Elohim's character and nature, see how His Word is TRUE, see how His promises are YES and AMEN.

And that when all seems hopeless for Israel - He will step in and show His Power and Glory, and Redeem them.

[Pioneer]

Walter, you can check this out, but the Catholic Church repented of the thought that it was their mission to preach and to convert the Jew.

This was not the mission of the Messiah! Israel was the "Elect"/"Chosen" of God.
They knew God. Always there have been and always will be some of Isreal who have not turned to idol worship. Each and every one of those who have not forgotten their God, look daily for the coming of the messiah. It is just plum crazy to say they will burn in hell because God blinded them from seeing Jesus/Yeshua at his first coming.
Walter, I am not accussing you of saying that! I am just making the point that, that is the concensus of a great many Christians. That being the case I want it made clear that Yeshua came to open the already exsisting gospel to the Nations, which the Hebrews held so dearly on to that very few people of the Nations ever came to know the Creator God.
The main fault in Talmud is because of the destruction of the Temples and what many outside of Israel took to be God turning his back on them and chose the Christians as his "Elect" and the words "Christ Killers" became the mantra of Christian Leaders. Much of what Christians find as offensive in Talmud is men being in the flesh trying to counter the death and destruction perpetrated upon them by the Nations. Put yourself in the shoes of a Jew or an Indian who suffered under the Name "Jesus Christ"!
Of the Talmud, eat the meat and discard the bones. The meat will nourish your soul, but if you chew on the bones, they will choke you.
The Spirit of God was and is still at work in Hebrews who are anxiously awating the coming of the Messiah. Even though the NT had made the "Holy Ghost" their private property, God is big enough to be in both camps at the same time.

So in Hebrew, shema v'shemar, hear and observe, every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Old saying; "Forget the past and the past will repeat itself." Or something like that.

Please forgive me if I came across as angry, I did not mean to be offensive.

Shalom u'vrachkah.

[Tikva]

I'm not quite sure if I want to jump into the discussion at this point, but the Jewish oral law has alot of valuable things that it expands on. Even though it does not recognize Yeshua as Messiah, nearly everything they write about Messiah describes Yeshua and what He has done. There is definitely a place for oral law in the lives of -observant believers, in my own opinion. No one should feel led to convince me otherwise, because I once DID feel otherwise and I was corrected in my thinking.

To close, even Yeshua advocated the oral and there is proof He kept it as well (too much info to post here, sorry. There is a book called "King of the Jews" by D. Thomas Lancaster that elaborates). Of course we shouldn't obey tradition OVER the , because there are instances when they disagree. Just don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Study it out for yourself before condemning it.

Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them." Matthew 23:1-3

One more thought... We have to understand the "Old Testament" before we can come into a full understanding of the "New Testament", and who better understands the OT than the Jewish sages? After all, the study of it was their life.

Ok I'll be quiet now... this has probably all been said already but I don't have the time to read all the many posts! :-)

Aimee

[Nachshon]

pioneer said:

walter said:

I don't understand why followers of Yeshua want to esteem and use a book that was writen by men who deny Yeshua and thus don't know The Father. ;D

They are blinded guides who can't properly understand Scripture, that don't have The Spirit of Elohim to lead them into Truth.

Why turn to un-regenerated men who lacked the Wisdom of Elohim when we have The Spirit of Elohim and The Mind of Messiah.

Please, Walter, since you have the mind of Messiah, can you tell me why no one asked Yeshua, just how do we store up treasure in heaven? I don't recall anyone questioning him nor do I recall him explaining the concept, the Holy Spirit had not come at this point. So clue us in, will you please?
If you can't answer, I can tell you why no one asked.

Shalom

Pioneer, if you will recall, I have already dealt with this issue.

[Nachshon]

yitzchak said:

walter said:

But they were not written when Yeshua was walking the earth.

Neither were the New Covenant Scriptures, but that is not really relevant



Yeshua's harshest criticisms were towards those Jewish leaders who placed burdens upon men, which were not required by the . Not all of the religious leaders.



There is no such word as "YHWH" in Hebrew. This is a misinterpretation. There is only YHVH with no vowels, and this is why we use Adonai.




If you had read the entire thread, as you were asked earlier, you will not that most of us here take a very simple stance. The is the foundation of everything we believe, which then runs its thread throughout the rest of the Tanakh, and Brit Chadasha.

These should be the only guides for our lives, placing Yeshua first in all things.

Are there things in the Talmud that are bad? Absolutely!!! How about we discuss Matthew Henry, and the myriad of other Christian commentaries, by which most believers form their theology. Are we simply to say that because they believe in Yeshua they have to be correct?

The fact is that all commentaries are flawed, because they are the words of men. I do not hold that because one is a believer that somehow there insight is any better than one who is not. I would not discount pious Jewish sages that dedicated their lives to the study of , in the way that they thought they were serving G-d.

Keep in mind that there was a criminal who entered paradise at the last moments of his life. I like to believe that the loving G-d that I serve is able at the last moments of anyone's life to reveal the Moshiach. There is only one way to G-d, and that is Yeshua, but we have no idea what happens at the end.

I thank G-d that you and I are not the decision makers.



No one here is telling you that you should.



I would be careful on this one. Elohim speaks of the plurality of G-d, and while they do not accept Moshiach as being part of that plurality they do recognize Avinu.



And who here has gotten it right. Guard yourself that you do not get too arrogant, and thank G-d that He pulled you out of the darkness when He did.

None of can get it right, and that is why we need the sacrifice of Yeshua.



Again, there is not one person here who will tell you that the Talmud or any other extra biblical work is required for faith. You cannot quote one single quote on this thread that states this.

Again I ask

Is Scripture ALONE sufficent to develop and maintain a relationship with the Father and His Son Yeshua?

And again I tell you as was suggested before, that if you had read the entire thread you will see that we covered this. Show me one instance where anyone here stated that you needed anything but the scriptures to maintain a relationship with Avinu and HaBen?

Shalom,

Yitzchak

Akhiy Yitzchak, please realise that I write this in all humility, not intending to make accusations, and with great respect for your years and your study, wisdom, and dedication to Father. However, I must object. For much of your post you avoided the issue. I would like to go over this point by point.
1) I think you either missed or avoided his point. He was saying that Yeshua could not have taught from Talmud because Talmud was not written until after Yeshua's time. Please understand, I know that Oral existed before Yeshua. However, this needed to be explained to our friend.
2) I believe that was his point.
3) Why did you not adress what he said? Rather you attacked his usage of a word that you do not use. His point was not about using Yodh-hey-waw-hey. Had he said Adonay, how would you have answered that sentence? Aside from that, you know as well as I that Hebrew had no vowels until the time of Ben Asher and Ben Naphtali. To say that a Hebrew word does not exist because the Massoretes chose not to include vowels is petty.
4) This point I will pass over.
I need to go right now, I may come back to this later.

[Yitzchak]

Akhiy Yitzchak, please realise that I write this in all humility, not intending to make accusations, and with great respect for your years and your study, wisdom, and dedication to Father. However, I must object. For much of your post you avoided the issue. I would like to go over this point by point.
1) I think you either missed or avoided his point. He was saying that Yeshua could not have taught from Talmud because Talmud was not written until after Yeshua's time. Please understand, I know that Oral existed before Yeshua. However, this needed to be explained to our friend.
2) I believe that was his point.
3) Why did you not adress what he said? Rather you attacked his usage of a word that you do not use. His point was not about using Yodh-hey-waw-hey. Had he said Adonay, how would you have answered that sentence? Aside from that, you know as well as I that Hebrew had no vowels until the time of Ben Asher and Ben Naphtali. To say that a Hebrew word does not exist because the Massoretes chose not to include vowels is petty.
4) This point I will pass over.
I need to go right now, I may come back to this later.

Nachson,

With all due respect, I think you missed the point I was trying to make.

I did not enter the discussion to answer his points. I entered the discussion because he was acting as if the opinion of one individual was the policy of the forum.

Both Natanel, and myself, both of whom are moderators here, asked him to re-read the entire thread. We did so because on many occassions it has been said that the Talmud is not to accepted, or venerated above the Scriptures. He chose to ignore these posts, and to continue to make bold statements.

It was these statements which I chose to address. I have a hard time when people lose sight of the blessing they have from Avinu that He chose to pull them out of darkness. We should not be arrogant towards those who have not yet been illuminated in this way.

Simply stated, he was asking questions which were clearly answered on the thread.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Nachshon]

I'm sorry. I didn't realise the object you had in mind. Please accept my sincerest apologies. You are right.

Shalom,
Nachshon