Talmud do, Talmud don't?

[Pioneer]

nachshon said:

No, you're right. It will not be proven today. My object is to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that I have a reasonable stance.
In the case you mentioned, kept in context, it is clear that He is dealing with their lack of belief in the resurrection, a doctrine that their descendants, the Karaites, have rejected. Why did He not address their lack of faith in Oral , as He evidently attacked at least certain Talmudic laws so blatantly?

Shalom,
Nachshon

Where is resurrection in ? Yep, he is clearly questioning the resurrection. Since they are completely in the right about resurrection, no where mentioned in , it is clear to me, he is saying because you do not accept the oral , you are wrong not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God.
Resurrection is only written in the NT.
The closest to resurrection in Tanack is David saying to "quicken me", a plea, but no promise from God to quicken anybody. And in Daniel; Da 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to and everlasting contempt.
So is this where Yeshua and the Pharisees get resurrection?
Shalom

[Nachshon]

They got it from Daniel 12:2, and from Psalm 49:15, and from Psalm 16:10, and Genesis 1:26, and Isaiah 66:24, etc.
I would ask you, by the same virtue, where the modern Karaites get the idea of the resurrection.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Pioneer]

nachshon said:

They got it from Daniel 12:2, and from Psalm 49:15, and from Psalm 16:10, and Genesis 1:26, and Isaiah 66:24, etc.
I would ask you, by the same virtue, where the modern Karaites get the idea of the resurrection.

Shalom,
Nachshon

It seems you want to ignore, not one jot nor tittle in !

I certainly can't phantom why the Karaites do what ever they do.

So who did the Addition? Perhaps the Mishnah? Gemarah?
Somewhere it got added before David, Isaiah, Daniel or any of the prophets. As for Gen. 1:26 you must remember Adam was driven out of Eden before he could eat of the tree of life and live forever, so that one won't fly! In only God is eternal/lives forever.
Since it was added and Yeshua approved, oh my, what does that conger up?
While we are on this subject, did Yeshua coin the phrase "Treasure in heaven? Was it a new addition or just old tradition? Why didn't someone say "What are you talking about? I have never heard about storing treasure in heaven. How do we schlep it up there?" But, it seems to me his audience was well aware of the term.
I do recall my Rabbi teaching on the subject, how to store up treasure in heaven. One of them reminds me of one of Yeshua's statements; But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just."
Hebrew tradition.
Fruit enjoyed in this world, the principal remains in tact, stored in heaven
The Rabbi's say to build up treasure in heaven #7. "Escort the dead" as they cannot repay you!
Are they quoting Yeshua or Hebrew tradition?
Next question was Yeshua ever quoting Hebrew traditon with his approval? I say yes, many times.
FYI;
#1 Honor mother and Father.
#2 Acts of loving kindness
#3 Early attendance at the Beit Ha Mikdash
#4 Prompt attention to hospitality
#5 Visit the sick
#6 Provide for a bride
#7 Escort the dead
#8 Absorbtion in prayer
#9 Making peace
#10 Study of (equal to them all)
They go further and say, "there is no prescribed measure, you may do as much as you wish."
Shalom

[Nachshon]

Your first phrase doesn't make sense to me. Would you mind explaining for me, please?
You can't phathom what we do, and yet you don't know what it is, by your own admission.

Why do you say that? Why did anything have to be added? You must remember that into us is breathed the naphash chayim. If we have the naphash chayim within us, we must have chay l'olam. I don't understand why you are saying that it must have been added before the prophets. You ascert that without giving any proof. Can you please support it?
This is what I appreciate about the Samaritans.
Again, you state that Yeshua approved, but I have been endeavoring to prove that He did not, and you offer no proof.
I freely admit that Yeshua made use of oral tradition, but that does not mean it is cannonical. I could make use of Norse Mythology to do a teaching on . But does that mean I think it is canonical?
Let me offer you a challenge, if you will indulge me. Find a single teaching of Yeshua that I cannot find in the written . That is my challenge.
On this point I'm afraid I must insist, because it has always been avoided by my rabbinic friends, so I must say I won't reply to anything until this question is answered. What did Mosheh write in Deuteronomy 31:9?

Shalom,
nachshon

[Pioneer]

nachshon said:

Your first phrase doesn't make sense to me. Would you mind explaining for me, please?
You can't phathom what we do, and yet you don't know what it is, by your own admission.

Why do you say that? Why did anything have to be added? You must remember that into us is breathed the naphash chayim. If we have the naphash chayim within us, we must have chay l'olam. I don't understand why you are saying that it must have been added before the prophets. You ascert that without giving any proof. Can you please support it?
This is what I appreciate about the Samaritans.
Again, you state that Yeshua approved, but I have been endeavoring to prove that He did not, and you offer no proof.
I freely admit that Yeshua made use of oral tradition, but that does not mean it is cannonical. I could make use of Norse Mythology to do a teaching on . But does that mean I think it is canonical?
Let me offer you a challenge, if you will indulge me. Find a single teaching of Yeshua that I cannot find in the written . That is my challenge.
On this point I'm afraid I must insist, because it has always been avoided by my rabbinic friends, so I must say I won't reply to anything until this question is answered. What did Mosheh write in Deuteronomy 31:9?

Shalom,
nachshon

First Phrase, not a hint of resurrection in ! Show me resurrection in . I truely can't find it. Heavenly signs is another. End of the age. Hades! Treasure in heaven. Mt 6:3 But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, Nowhere in do I find such teachings.
And Moses wrote this law, and gave it to the priests the sons of Levi, who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and to all the elders of Israel.
So I am told this is from the oldest book of the bible; Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my release should come.
I have no way to prove or disprove it's age.
Give me your answer.
Shalom

[Nachshon]

I was planning on replying to this this evening, but I'm a little frustrated by something someone just told me, so I'm going to save this until another day when I'm calmer. I hope you'll understand.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Nachshon]

Okay. I'm cool now. Here we go.
You can't find the Resurrection in ? Why do you need to? Yeshua found it there for you. "But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read the thing which was said to you by God who said, That 'I am the God of Awraham, the God of Iskaq, and the God of Yacob?' And he was not the God of the dead, rather of the living." Mattai 22:31-32 (Younan)
"It happened on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud on the mountain, and the sound of an exceedingly loud shofar; and all the people who were in the camp trembled." Exodus 19:16 (HNV) I would call that a Heavenly sign.
The End of the Age is hidden, but it is clear in the prophets, and Mosheh wrote of it hear: "in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, this one, a feast of the Ssukkoth" Lev. 23:34
Hades, I'm surprised you've missed this one. It's quite clear. "and opened the earth her mouth, and swallowed them and their houses and all the men that (were) for Qorakh and all their property : and they sank, they and what they had, alive to She’ol" Numbers 16:32
The exact words of Yeshu'ah's teachings on humility, not to let your right know what your left does, is not found in the . However, I believe that He was using the principle that Sha'ul taught, "I was all things to all men." Teaching Pharisees humility, which clearly is in the , He used their own teachings.

That is how most translations render it. But I read it like this, "And Mosheh wrote The , this one, and gave it to the Priests, sons of Levi, those bearing the ark of the covenant of YHWH and to all the elders of Yisra’el."
There's another interesting passage along these same lines, "if you will not observe to do all the words of the , this one, the writings in the book" Deut. 28:58a
Personally, I place Job at the end of Genesis I believe that 'Iyyov is the same as the Yov of Genesis 46:13.
"Give me your answer."
Sir, please do not be so demanding. I have not failed to answer you yet. In good faith, dear sir.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Pioneer]

nachshon said:

Okay. I'm cool now. Here we go.
You can't find the Resurrection in ? Why do you need to? Yeshua found it there for you. "But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read the thing which was said to you by God who said, That 'I am the God of Awraham, the God of Iskaq, and the God of Yacob?' And he was not the God of the dead, rather of the living." Mattai 22:31-32 (Younan)
"It happened on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud on the mountain, and the sound of an exceedingly loud shofar; and all the people who were in the camp trembled." Exodus 19:16 (HNV) I would call that a Heavenly sign.
The End of the Age is hidden, but it is clear in the prophets, and Mosheh wrote of it hear: "in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, this one, a feast of the Ssukkoth" Lev. 23:34
Hades, I'm surprised you've missed this one. It's quite clear. "and opened the earth her mouth, and swallowed them and their houses and all the men that (were) for Qorakh and all their property : and they sank, they and what they had, alive to She’ol" Numbers 16:32
The exact words of Yeshu'ah's teachings on humility, not to let your right know what your left does, is not found in the . However, I believe that He was using the principle that Sha'ul taught, "I was all things to all men." Teaching Pharisees humility, which clearly is in the , He used their own teachings.

That is how most translations render it. But I read it like this, "And Mosheh wrote The , this one, and gave it to the Priests, sons of Levi, those bearing the ark of the covenant of YHWH and to all the elders of Yisra’el."
There's another interesting passage along these same lines, "if you will not observe to do all the words of the , this one, the writings in the book" Deut. 28:58a
Personally, I place Job at the end of Genesis I believe that 'Iyyov is the same as the Yov of Genesis 46:13.
"Give me your answer."
Sir, please do not be so demanding. I have not failed to answer you yet. In good faith, dear sir.

Shalom,
Nachshon

I am afraid that is the "corkscrewiest" interpretation I 've ever heard! I can deffinately see you came from a Baptist background!

(Why is my opinion true? "Because I said so.")

I thought we were in a serious discussion of !

So I am finished! I can't see any thing productive coming from this.

Shalom

[Nachshon]

As you wish.

[Blake]

"I am afraid that is the "corkscrewiest" interpretation I 've ever heard! I can deffinately see you came from a Baptist background!"

Interesting, how you insult you're brother instead of engaging in discussion. Perhaps you should simply admit you are not knowledgeable enough to continue the discussion instead of resorting to childish chauvinism.

[Yitzchak]

blake said:

"I am afraid that is the "corkscrewiest" interpretation I 've ever heard! I can deffinately see you came from a Baptist background!"

Interesting, how you insult you're brother instead of engaging in discussion. Perhaps you should simply admit you are not knowledgeable enough to continue the discussion instead of resorting to childish chauvinism.

Blake,

If you have something to bring to the discussion, then please do so. However, please refrain from making derogatory comments about other posters.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I am afraid that is the "corkscrewiest" interpretation I 've ever heard! I can deffinately see you came from a Baptist background!

Yes, I would also caution Pioneer as to the language and tone used above. Pioneer, please refrain from further such communication.

Blake, I thought you converted to non-Yeshua Judaism and left the forum?
Forgive me if I missed something. An update would be appreciated.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[Chizuk Emunah]

Okay, so I was in the process of replying when we lost power yesterday, so I lost everything I'd written. I'll try to pick this back up.

Let's look at Mattityahu 23:23:
Woe to you, Soferim and P'rushim, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the : justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

So here we see Y'hoshua criticizing the soferim and p'rushim for being hypocrites. But was he criticizing them for adding a fence? {NOTE: Tithing mint, dill, and cumin, though not required by written can be found in the Talmud.}

Let's look closer.
For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the : justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
Okay, so we know that they were neglecting the weightier provisions of the , mishpat, chesed, and emunah.

Now let's continue on to that last line, but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
So with this last statement not only does he not condemn it, but he tells them they should be doing it.

The problem Y'hoshua had was not with the fence in and of itself, but it was when that fence was given precedence over the Written that he took issue with.

[Nachshon]

I beg to differ. It is commanded to tithe on these things. "The choicest first-fruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk." Sh'moth 23:19 (JPS)
Does it mention Mint, dill, and cumin in particular? No. But we are commanded to bring in the firstfruits of everything that we grow.
I have no problem with traditions. There are only three objections I have to the Talmud. 1) it is self-contradictory. 2) it turns traditions, which can be good, into commandments. The command is not to add to or take away from the . 3) it contradicts the written words of YHWH.
However, as to Mattai 23:23, you probably all know that I am a big fan of the Aramaic Peshitta, which has a different reading. "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and you overlook the more important things of the law: Justice and mercy and faith. And these things were necessary for you to have done, and these things you should not have forgotten." (Younan)

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Dogface Of Judah]

Question chaverim;

Is there different versions of the Talmud, as in edited and unedited besides translations? I'll explain why later.

Toda rabbah

Ed