Talmud do, Talmud don't?

[Dogface Of Judah]

Ok here's a few tidbits.

The Babylonion Talmud

Edited by Rabbi Dr I Eptstein

Sanhedrin 55a- unnatural incest and beastality permitted
52b-moral perversions
58b-unnatural sexual relations permitted
69b-pederasty permitted
76b-77b-indirect muder permitted
77b-78a-euthenesia permitted
106a-106b-degrading Yeshua

Yebamoth 55b-56a-evasions of G-d's law concerning fornication permitted
60b-sexual relations with 3 yr olds permitted

Kerithoth 11a-11b-seduction of adolescent girls permitted

Kethuboth 11b-sexual relations with children permitted

Gittin 56b-57a-Yeshua in Hell



While there a many good and helpful information in the Talmud, you can see why i have some issues with it. That's why i was wondering if there is a Talmud that is edited without the satanic,vile, and pure blasphemous 'bs' as you can see from above.

Have a nice day.

Ed

[Chizuk Emunah]

You sure that's in there? Have you read it for yourself or are you just taking someone elses word for it? And if you are taking their word, have they read it in Aramaic, or have they just read someone's biased translation? I personally have a hard time reading Aramaic and have yet to get my hands on a complete reliable English translation ( don't quite have 2k to plunk down on a set just yet). Until I read it for myself or have someone show me from a reliable translation, I view those comments from so-called "Rabbi" Epstein to be biased, as it goes against the nature and character of many of the Sages. Anyone who has studied the history of the Talmud can tell you this.

Shalom,
Natanel


Edit: btw, if anyone can read and translate Aramaic (I can read a little but not very well), here is a link to a site that has the complete Talmuds in Hebrew and Aramaic: Talmud

[Dogface Of Judah]

Natanel ben-Avigdor,

The Talmud i have seen and read what i posted mostly came from the Soncino Press version, volume 3 of the general division Nezikin treatise Sanhedrin. I don't have a date when published. I knew the Talmud had some serious personal issues but wasn't aware of how brutal. That's why i was wondering on different translation/version and who had the best one. Is there one i can look at on the internet. This is somewhat confusing, just trying to get it strait.

Thanks all

Ed

[Dogface Of Judah]

Found it on the internet.

[ftp]http://www.come-and-hear.com/talmud/[/ftp]

Ed

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I freely admit that Yeshua made use of oral tradition, but that does not mean it is cannonical.

Amein. Much of the writings of the sages were probably inspired by Adonai, and Yeshua our Messiah agreed with much of it (even used many of these traditions in His personal walk). But, we would be making a grave error to suppose that all the writings of the sages are on the level of the inspired scriptures that we have between the books of B'resheet and Revelation. The Talmud, Mishna, and other works of men clearly have errors and non-inspired instruction that is not of our Heavenly Father...and indeed if followed would be sin. But, we must read Talmud and other such texts with the filter of that we not turn to the right, or to the left. I believe that the scriptures very clearly show that this was Yeshua’s approach to various customs.

Yom tov,

Reuel

[Dogface Of Judah]

Just to clarify;

What i posted was from notes i made a while back. The Talmud i found out was a 1935 edition so i don't know if the internet one has been altered. I did see it with my own eyes so no offense to anyone. That's why i'm a little confused what is legit and what isn't. I quess its which Rabbi's to listen to ;D.

Shalom uv'rachah b'Yeshua HaMashiach


Ed

[Chizuk Emunah]

No problem. Sorry I jumped all over your case like that. I've just seen garbage like that before on Anti-Semitic sites (just google 'talmud' and you'll see what I mean), so I am quick to take offense. If you have the money to invest, you can purchase the Schottenstein Edition Talmud Bavli from here. I would recommend the Daf Yomi edition simply because its cheaper. One recommendation I would make to everyone however: Study and learn before you jump into anything else. I would also recommend that one read The Essential Talmud & Everyman's Talmud before jumping into the Talmud itself. It will help you to learn the format and structure of the Talmud.

Shalom,
Natanel

[Dogface Of Judah]

Shalom Natanel,

Yes i know what you mean about the anti-semetic sites. I do my best to look into the matter(whatever that may be) before i come to any conclusions and even then i somewhat leave it on the table to review. Thank you for the link. I was wanting to purchase the Talmud in about 4 yrs or so after i turn 40. I see it's a big investment. Until then i am trying to learn what i can. and the whole Bible comes first and what doesn't jive up with it gets trashed. I shall read The Essential Talmud & Everyman's Talmud. This is what i am needing, some direction. Thank you again Achi.

I was curious to what this means which is from the internet Talmud that i linked and is one example that i have a problem with unless i am wrong what it sais.

Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin

Folio 69a

R. Jeremiah of Difti said: We also learnt the following: A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition, and if her deceased husband's brother cohabited with her, she becomes his. The penalty of adultery may be incurred through her; [if a niddah,] she defiles him who has connection with her, so that he in turn defiles that upon which he lies, as a garment which has lain upon . If she married a priest, she may eat of terumah; if any unfit person cohabits with her, he disqualifies her from the priesthood. If any of the forbidden degrees had intercourse with her, they are executed on her account, but she is exempt.22

Any help would be great as in what is being done to a 3 yr old.

See ya.

Ed

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Study and learn before you jump into anything else

Any help would be great as in what is being done to a 3 yr old.

I would have to read it in context (don't have the resource before me now), but could it be speaking of a time period of three years starting from some point in a maiden's life?

I am not familiar with this text. Sorry.

[Dogface Of Judah]

I would have to read it in context (don't have the resource before me now), but could it be speaking of a time period of three years starting from some point in a maiden's life?

That would make me feel alot better. I don't know either. Thanks for the help.

I have notes on other problems but will leave it alone for now. The context seems to be not so good when its all put together. could be wrong.

Ed

[Chizuk Emunah]

Shalom Dogface,
Well, there are a couple of things about that site that set off warning flags, so I wouldn't accept everything you read there to be at face value.

1) They advertise themselves as an "Educational Forum for the Examination of Religous Truth and Religous Tolerance." I would be wary of any site claiming to "examine religous truths." Because on the surface it may sound good, but there is usually an alterior motive behind it.

2) They also advertise as "Running circles around Talmud censorship." Sounds kinda fishy to me. Why would anyone need to "run circles around Talmud censorship" when they can pick it up and read it for themselves? Again, it sends up a red flag, and I would be wary of such of things.

As for the passage itself, if it truly does exist, then I would agree with Reuel in that it is referring to a maiden of marriageable age, and certainly not a 3yr old!


Something else I forgot to mention earlier. The Talmud or Gemara is actually a collection of commentary on the Mishna. And the Mishna is a collection of commentary on the Midrashim. So if you're looking for a place to start after reading the books I recommended, I would start by reading the works of the Midrashim.

Shalom,
Natanel

[Dogface Of Judah]

Shalom Natanel,

It's hard to say what the context of certain Talmud text is so i take great care and caution when i see i.e anti-Talmud hit pieces and such. Only looking for the truth. There is still some uneasy issues with certain text. We all know what certain Rabbi's in the Talmud think of our Lord and Saviour. Anyways thanks for the direction Achi.

Ed

[Yitzchak]

dogfaceofjudah said:

Shalom Natanel,

It's hard to say what the context of certain Talmud text is so i take great care and caution when i see i.e anti-Talmud hit pieces and such. Only looking for the truth. There is still some uneasy issues with certain text. We all know what certain Rabbi's in the Talmud think of our Lord and Saviour. Anyways thanks for the direction Achi.

Ed

Ed,

I have been away for a few weeks, but I wanted to weigh in on this subject.

One must understand it is the manner of the Talmud to examine extreme theoretical cases in order to precisely define and delineate legal concepts. Such study is mandated because the laws are part of the Written and Oral , not necessarily because they have practical application.


The discussions of the sources like 69a relates to the dowry for virgins and non-virgins.

A virgin receives a higher dowry, oft the case in the Abrahamic religion all together. While the recognizing sign of virginity is the release of blood due to the breaking of the hymen on the wedding night, there are as you must know, occasions when the hymen has already been broken, for example in situations when the woman suffered an injury etc.

And the sanctity of marriage and virginity were very important issues, at least back in the day.

The talmudic discussions here and elswhere therein, adds that a sexual act with a male/female minor is not viewed to be a loss of virginity because one of the participants is not yet fully active you see? If the female's hymen may have been broken, being used by an adult or another minor sexually, she has not engaged in what can be classified as a sexual act that can strip away the sanctity of virginity. Though it nowhere condones such acts in any way or fashion, simply it elaborates on if it might happen what will happen.

The Talmud context reflects that a sexual act between a male adult and a female under the age of three is not considered a loss of virginity. Since the girl is too young for her hymen to be broken, she is still considered a virgin. But again, nowhere does the Talmud permit such behavior.

If you look at the writings of Maimonides, Mishneh , Hilchot Ishut 1:4, Hilchot Na'arah Betulah 2:17; Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 26:1, 177:5 for example, as is this obviously a case of child abuse, the Talmud is only discussing the ex post facto what might happen with the sanctity of virginity if such a case occured.

All that's being discussed is wether, if such an event ever took place in such a case the girl can be considered a "virgin" later, when she one day comes to marry someone. The answer is an obvious "yes", as far as the sanctity of virginity concerned what happened was just like getting poked with an inanimate object, since it didn't remove her ability to remain innocent. This is the analogy used, if such an act were to happen it does nothing to remove the child's sanctity of virginity from the legal or spiritual sense.


There are different legal consequences arising from an act of intercourse (related to personal status, punishment for rape, property rights etc.) and the Talmud investigates whether such an act committed on a baby girl has the status of intercourse or not. There is an ancient tradition that states that if the girl is older than the age of three then an act of intercourse was committed; before that age, such an act does not have the status of sexual intercourse for legal purposes (it may be an act of assault, of course).

Kidushin 41a the rabbis taught: "It is forbidden for a man to betroth his daughter while she is young [but rather he should wait] till she has grown and says 'This is the one I want [to marry]" and this teaching is repeated elsewhere in the Talmud.

Thought this might help you. Remember again the Talmud is a set of arguments, sometimes extreme to make points regarding Halakha.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Chizuk Emunah]

One must understand it is the manner of the Talmud to examine extreme theoretical cases in order to precisely define and delineate legal concepts.

Todah for noting that and for adding your insight into Tractate Yevamot. I think people would have less problems with the Talmud if they undertook to study it as a source for legal cases - halacha.

[Dogface Of Judah]

Shalom Yitzchak,

I knew there was more to it. Thank you for your added insight. Natanel (thank you as well) has steered me in the right direction due to me being new on this. the Talmud (Babylonian) has a lot of confusing and hard to interpret sayings that seem not so nice. With proper context and guidence it's not so bad after all. You seem to have a gift of speaking the right words Yitzchak (my brother and elder ). This site is a G-d's send and i encourage(and thank) all to be patient as we travel this long road together.

Shalom uv'rachah b'Yeshua HaMashiach

Ed