Is Torah Only for the Jews?

[Ruchamah]

Isnt part of the circumcison problem we are dealing with the difficulty of grown men circ'ing themselves? Paul at one point forbade this practice, because of the true *Judaizers* who said that SALVATION came via circumcision of Moses. I am SURE Paul encourgaged all the believers' sons to be circ'd on the 8th day, per ......... or did he?

Ponderment!
Ruchamah

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom Chaverim,

This is a valid question. Is The for both Jews and Gentiles? Another valid question is how is a Gentile described after joining the commonwealth of Yisrael? A good example to search out is how was Ruth described after later doing this and what was expected of her?

At any rate, this question is the one of the main purposes I established this forum. There are many different threads currently handling this question. There are many different scriptures passages (primarily written by Rav Sha'ul/Paul) that need to be handled one at a time in their own threads. We have a section of the forum just for this in regards to the writings of Sha'ul (Paul).

Unless there is something particularly unique about this thread that is not available in any other of the threads here on the forum I will lock the thread soon. In the meantime, the following 67 pg article by Tim Hegg wonderfully handles a whole range of passages dealing with this subject:

For Jews Only?

I don't necessarily agree with every point found in this article, but it is a great resource that will be helpful.

Shalom,

Re’uel

[Bob]

I think what drove this point home for me is Isaiah 56
Isa 56:1-12 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation [is] near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. (2) Blessed [is] the man [that] doeth this, and the son of man [that] layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. (3) Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I [am] a dry tree. (4) For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant; (5) Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. (6) Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; (7) Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. (8) The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather [others] to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. (9) All ye beasts of the field, come to devour, [yea], all ye beasts in the forest. (10) His watchmen [are] blind: they are all ignorant, they [are] all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. (11) Yea, [they are] greedy dogs [which] can never have enough, and they [are] shepherds [that] cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter. (12) Come ye, [say they], I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, [and] much more abundant.

[Tyler]

mpossoff said:

Hi all this is a post by a Messianic Rabbi any comments?

I'll just give a quick answer at this point and hope that it helps. I think
the definitions for sin and righteousness would be the same for Jews and
Gentiles. Paul in particular, especially in Romans, is quick to point that
out. At the same time, some specific requirements for righteous living are
different. Most to the point, in Acts 15 it is assume that Jews will
continue to practice b'rit milah, circumcising their sons on the 8th day,
and this assumption is reflected throughout the New Testament, including in
Paul's letters. But Gentiles are not required to practice b'rit milah, and
are actively discouraged from doing so in Galatians. Different definitions
of righteousness? No, but different requirements for different people
seeking to live a righteous life. In a similar way we see different
requirements for men and women in some areas, although both are fully heirs
of life in Messiah.

Marc

I agree with this Messianic Rabbi.

The idea of different requirements is found in the itself.

There are different requirements for the High Priests, priests, Levites, Kings, men and women of various ages and marital status, etc. It is not a stretch to think that there are different requirements for Gentiles in light of the New Covenant (ex. the circumcision requirement).

However, this does not create a caste system since we are all one Body and a hand, for example, will not oppress its own foot.

Also, Messiah's stipulation shown in His example guards against this. That is, whoever would be the greatest in the Kingdom must be the least and the servant of all (my paraphrase).

And, in Messiah Who is our Great High Priest of the order of Malki-Tzedek, we who are in Messiah are all equally a royal priesthood.

[Prodigal Girl]

I think all this really leads to the question of "What is a Jew", which is a question I raised in another thread. At what point, and who determines, what a Jew really is, what that really means? What has it meant to various groups, and what does the Bible really say about it? At what what point can/does one become a Jew, if not born to it? Even if you are born to it, who and what determines what THAT entails? What would be the purpose of "becoming a Jew"; is it something that anyone would/should do? The answers to questions differ depending on who is defining things. I believe this is a definite topic of discussion in the Bible as a whole, particularly when circumcision is mentioned, as well as rabbinical writings of before the second temple period and after. Intermarriage was a big issue then as now. This continues to be a hotly contested question in Israel today; who determines what is a "true Jew"? I think if we can answer that question BIBLICALLY correctly, we will go a long way towards determining who should and/or how much of/what parts of the applies to whom.

[Mark]

First, I think it worth noting that the Noachide Laws do not appear in rabbinic literature until the Tosefta, written in the 3rd Century. This rule was establishe dto legitimize distinction between Jew and gentile worshipers of Adonai. It is absolutely contrary to

One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance forever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
(Num 15:15-16 KJV)

It absolutely disregards the New Testament definition of sin

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
(Rom 3:19-20 KJV)

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
(1Jo 3:4 KJV)


It rejects the commandment of Messiah

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
(Mat 28:19-20 KJV)

Messiah taught strictest obedience to

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
(Mat 23:23 KJV)

If the Laws of Noah were all that applied to gentiles, Paul is way off base by setting such an inappropriate standard before the Galatians in Galatians 5:19-21: a listy which includes uncleanness.

Paul describes a Jew as one as observant, regardless of his ethnicity or cultural upbringing in Romans 2:26-29.

To suggest that is for the ethnic Jew and only the Noachide Laws are relevant to the gentile is to suggest that God has two different definitions of sin and two different standards of righteousness.

[Tyler]

Romans 2:28-29

"For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the Jewish ceremony of circumcision. No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not a cutting of the body but a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. Whoever has that kind of change seeks praise from God, not from people." (NLT)

Here's the same passage from the Complete Jewish Bible:

"For the real Jew is not merely Jewish outwardly: true circumcision is not only external and physical. On the contrary, the real Jew is one inwardly; and true circumcision is of the heart, spiritual not literal; so that his praise comes not from other people but from God."

So... from these passages it would seem that a Jew is someone whose parent(s) are Jewish or who converted and was circumcised. And it would seem that a true Jew is a Jew whose heart is circumcised by the Holy Spirit.

Also, I thought Paul was pretty clear that, Jew or Gentile, one should remain in that state in which they were called and saved (with possible exceptions for those of one Jewish parent like Timothy).

Anyway, maybe I missed something with all this talk about Noachide Laws (of which I'm not an advocate). God's Law is God's Law, period. THE standard for sin and righteousness. PERIOD.

However is Prodigal Girl sinning by not being circumcised? (sorry Prodigal Girl for picking on you... so far you're the only girl I know here). Obviously this is a nonsensical idea. Why? Because she is female and this commandment is not required for females. Is this sexist? No. Of course not! Prodigal Girl has every right and access to the Father that I have. She is part of the same Body as I am. We share the same Head and the same Flesh and Blood.

So why is it such a stumbling block to think that Gentile brothers would have different requirements too?

Let me illustrate again. Am I sinning because I have never even once offered an animal sacrifice? Never once ate the Passover lamb? Aren't these things required of me in ? But we know that in light of the New Covenant these requirements have been more than sufficiently met thanks to Messiah the Lamb of God!

So why is it such a stumbling block to think that the New Covenant wouldn't have an effect on other requirements of the ?

Nevertheless the biggest qualifier of the New Covenant is that it is written in our hearts. So, through conviction of the Holy Spirit, let everyone be convinced in their own mind what is good and right obedience to our Saviour Who is worthy.

[Prodigal Girl]

" And it would seem that a true Jew is a Jew whose heart is circumcised by the Holy Spirit".

So you would infer from this then Tyler, that even if you are uncircumcised physically, yet are circumcised of heart, then you are a Jew? Realize that being uncircumcised/circumcised of heart is discussed in the Tanach. It is not just a "New Covenant" concept.
Because if that is your inference from these scriptures, then why would law not be for those Gentiles who are circumcised of heart? Your logic does not make sense to me.
No one here is saying that women should be circumcised, or that we all have to take sacrifices today. It would be against to do those things. Just like it would have been against for Daniel to offer sacrifices in his time and place.
Let me point out that Abraham was circumcised (eventually) and both of his kids were circumcised (eventually) as well as his servants (eventually). Were they all Jewish?

[Mark]

And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good? Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day. Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
(Deu 10:12-16 KJV)

If any of thine be driven out unto the outermost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
(Deu 30:4-6 KJV)

If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove. And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory. For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns. Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
(Jer 4:1-4 KJV)

[Mark]

I think the verse that Bob included is very much to the point, that even as hopeless as a eunuch (Deuteronomy 23:1) Adonai offers inclusion to the gentile (Deuteronomy 23:3).

A question to the point of circumcision, or the necessity of it for a Jewish identity. Was Timothy a Jew before he was circumcised or only after?

[nasah]

Excuse this newbie barging in here, and cutting to the chase! However, i just love to discuss the scriptures and learn about halacha.

I have thught much on this in the recent month, and i think that Jews and Gentiles are expected the same sort of observance, however with our fallible state in mind.

Now, In Acts we see Paul stating:

Act 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:
Act 15:29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."

I know Mark has mentioned this one, and also this one:

And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good? Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day. Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
(Deu 10:12-16 KJV)

What i see is that Gentiles have a need to grow in instruction, as they have not been exposed to His ways as the Jews were for a looong time (40 years in the wilderness)
I think that's even more so the case in today's age with us Gentiles coming back to the roots after 2000 years of Christianity which has largely done away with the Jewish background and instructions.

What i see in my own walk as in anyone's is that it takes a lifetime to learn and get closer to that goal of imitating yeshua and to walk the way He walked.

I have been wondering at times why God brings me to the basics of Love and understanding, and come to the conclusion that a solid foundation first needs to be build before everything else will fall into place.

Just as clay is being modeled, and then just before it is finished it has to go through fire....

So it takes a long time before we are finished. The Jews always had a head start on that as far as theoretical was concerned, but now we Gentiles have to catch up in theory and practical. while the Jews only have to catch up in the practical (circumcision of the heart aspect)

I think in hind sight it is funny that here i find myself a little envious of their theoretical knowledge base, yet we will be the nation to incite them to jealousy....

It sort of reminds me too of the phrase the first will be last, and the last shall be first.

I'm comfortable where i am, though i can get a little impatient with my slowness of learning at times. But making a foundation usually takes the most time.

Shalom,

nasah

[Mark]

One of the ways I've described the distinction between Jews and gentiles in their walk toward faith is Uncle Louie's Bakery. Uncle Louie is an easy guy to get along with and sees himself as a vehicle for young men to start out in the business world. He always has room to put another kid to work, knowing that once they get some experience under their belt, they're going to move on to bigger and better things. He wants to teach the kids how to work, get them used to the idea of having a boss and responsibilities and he wants to give them confidence in their ability to succeed. Uncle Louie will hire just about anyone, well, of legal age but under the age of twenty-five.

Yet, because he's Uncle Louie, there is a special place in his heart for those of the Malvakorich family. If you're a Malvacorich, all you have to do is show up and he'll throw you an apron. You're family. You've sat on his knee since you were poopin diapers. Your daddy sat on his knee before that. If you're new in town, he's going to give you an application for you to fill out. He has to know that you really want the job. Once inside, you'll all sweep the floors and clean out the grease traps the same; but the method of getting in is just a little different.

If your family, the Jew, you've grown up with knowing exactly who Uncle Louie is; and from the time you knew what a jelly donut was, you knew that there was a place for you in Uncle Louie's shop. The rest of us have to find Him. But, He'll never turn us away.

[Nashdude]

I trust that this analogizes how we view God, not how He views the differences between us? After all, if God's no respector of persons, then we're ALL family. It's just that the Gentiles among us don't know it until we've met and accepted Christ!

Kinda splitting hairs, I know, but I bristle at the merest hint that God might show favoritism.

[Mark]

Yes, and that's a great point. The difference is that the Jewish hom eis born into an environment that knows Adonai according to His character, while we have to find Him, which the multi-generational Christian household is likely to bristle at equally. Honesty hurts.

[nasah]

The way i see it, is that both sides have something to "brag" about......

I'm not so sure i would agree that the Jews have "found" Him and that they have something ahead of us in that regard.

I think the actual finding part is going on on both sides. (outward vs inward)
But what the Jews have ahead of us IMHO, is growing up in the household and while they understand the technicality of how things work, they may not understand the true spirit of things and have the same love for their craft than someone coming from the outside looking for it does.
Also, growing up in the household may leave them with a false sense of security and taking things for granted.
I don't envy them really, other than having had the advantage of knowing from an early age on. (And that really only goes for those that adhere religiously, there are quite many of secular Jews sadly enough.)

Shalom,
nasah