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Post by Mark on Mar 21, 2005 4:37:52 GMT -8
CWV, You must be aware that this forum is a gathering of folks who tend to believe that , the Old Testament Law, is given for all man, that by it is the definition of sin; which God very much has a problem with, and that we, if we love Him ought to avoid. Still, you are very candid and outspoken in your position with grace and sincerity. I want you to know that I very much appreciate that and hope that you are never offended by my words; but at the same time, I pray that the Spirit if God leads you to see the Scriptures from this perspective that is so different from how you have come to understand them. It's difficult to deny that Yeshua (Jesus) was observant. He was born under the Law, we're told in Galatians 4:4. In Matthew 5:17-19 he said that those who keep and teach will be called great in the kingdom of heaven and those who reject (even the least part) will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. He told the Pharisees who tithed well but didn't tend to show mercy, "These ought you to have done without leaving the others undone." Never in His earthly life could he have taught or suggested anything contrary to . If He did, He would have acted against the Law that Paul said that He was born under (Philippians 2:5-8). Now, here's the problem. Yeshua commanded His disciples in Matthew 28:18-20 go into all nations, teaching them to observe all things that He had commanded them. Not just the things that would make sense or be appropriate to the gentile understanding; but all things. In Luke 24:47 He qualifies this to the objective of being "for the remission of sins unto repentence." We know that sin is the trangression of the Law (Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7, 1st John 3:4). Your interpretation of Paul's writings, in this context, at best, forces your listener to choose between the commands of Paul and the commands of the Messiah. Even Paul rejected this possibility when He said "be followers of me, even as (or, insomuch as) I am a follower of Christ." I don't believe there is any inconsistency between Paul and Yeshua. I think the interpretations of his writings have been grossly mishandled over the years to defend man's desire to be lawless. That's no surprise. Paul, himself, said that would happen (2nd Timothy 4:3 , Acts 20:29). We know that this is not the way that you have been taught to read Scripture. Many of us came from the same positions that you hold now. Some of us burdened over these Scriptures for years. Most of us have endured rejection and criticism because of this stand that we have taken. Yet, we believe God- that He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He does not change. His Word does not change and His righteousness endures forever. We believe that we are sinners who have been saved by His everlasting love, not because we are obedient; but because of His great mercy. Yet, as having become His servants, we are called to change, to be formed more and more into His likeness, according to His purpose, for His good pleasure. That means submitting ourselves to become obedient to His Law. Mark
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Mar 21, 2005 14:28:56 GMT -8
Shalom CWV, You stated…<br> Rav Shaul’s (Paul’s) writings have always been in agreement with and I believe this is why The Father allowed them to stand. It has been men whom have misinterpreted the writings of this well-learned Jewish Rabbi whom was taught at the feet of Gamaliel. Do you understand the writings of the Jewish sages or first century Jewish thought? If not, how can 99.9% of Christianity claim to perfectly understand Rav Sha’ul (Paul)? Even in Shaul’s time Kefa (Peter) witnessed that all of Shaul’s writings were hard to understand…<br> “ And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Sha’ul (Paul) also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”- 2Kefa (Peter) 3:15-16 If Kefa stated that the profound teachings of Sha’ul were “hard to be understood” in his time, we better do our homework today. Furthermore, are we to test Shaul’s (Paul’s) writings by his own writings, or do they fall or stand when compared to the TeNaKh? What did he recommend and commend himself?…<br> ”And the brethren immediately sent away Sha’ul (Paul) and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”- Acts 17:11-12 What scriptures do you think that they searched to verify Shaul’s teachings? This begs the question; Does the TeNaKh support a rejection of amongst those Gentiles whom have been grafted into Israel (just as Ruth was)? Did Ruth change her eating habits? Did she change her customs? Is she not a Biblical example? Did not all of the pagan Gentiles have to change there pagan customs which were nodoubt deeply rooted in their families for many generations when they were grafted into Israel and when joining themselves to Yeshua The Messiah? Most of the misunderstandings regarding Shaul’s (Paul’s) writings can be cleared up through an understanding of the Hebraic context. We would be happy to cover the passages that you believe support the rejection of our Heavenly Father’s amongst Gentile believers. Amein and Shalom chaverim, Reuel
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inawe
New Member
Posts: 19
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Post by inawe on Mar 21, 2005 15:42:28 GMT -8
Shalom cwvwarrior, You seem to be dealing with something I've had to go through, as well. I was raised Christian (southern baptist) and was always told of the importance of Isreal and the Jewish people in the foundation of Christianity...but some key scriptural questioned either remained unanswered, or were explained with some serious theological acrobatics. I clung to what I had been taught....that (they never called it that) was important in a historical context, but not important enough to learn, much less follow...seemed like a lot of trouble for something I didn't really need. .....Then, a year or so ago, I came across an artice entitled,"Not Subject to the Law?" at www.yashanet.com , and all of my questios...well...it was as if a light had been turned on in a dark room. One of the main points we need to consider is the Biblical truth that G'd does not change! He is the same yesterday, today and forever! Go back and read our Creator's promises and covanents with Isreal. Look at Yeshua's remarks about noy one jot or tittle being changed from the law (The ). Now, I am no scholar...I'm in here to learn G'd's , and far from being a burden, I find it a joy. At the above mentioned website, there are a couple of excellent downloadable Bible studies The beginner study is on Matthew. Then one more difficult on the book of Romans. Many of your thoughts on Paul's (Sha'ul) writings are adressed in great detail. I'm not asking you to blindly give up your beliefs. Just please allow yourself to be open to all possibilities, as we are all human, and subjet to error. .....yes, that includes me too Seek and you shall find,my Brother. His Spirit will counsel you. And if you choose to believe otherwise, I have no right to condemn you...as we all fall short of His glory. Please, keep asking questions and making observations. You seem to have a real zeal for the Word....... May it be a light unto your path, Peace be upon you in the Name of Yeshua The Messiah, inawe
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Mar 22, 2005 20:01:26 GMT -8
I am in total agreement with you guys here. Even though I was born Jewish, I was raised as a Christian. After learning of my Jewishness at the age 17, I started becoming observant. But the real turning point in my life was when I came across the following site 5yrs ago: www.hebroots.comEven though I disagree with them now, it still had the effect of turning me in the right direction. Excellent article. I would highly recommend it to anyone willing to learn.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Mar 23, 2005 17:14:19 GMT -8
I agree that this article is great You may also find a link to it on my scripture study page at www.theloveofgod.net
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Post by Rick on Mar 26, 2005 18:11:31 GMT -8
Well said Mark.
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Post by pblondeau46 on Jun 19, 2005 9:19:51 GMT -8
This is true. I think that is the case with anyone coming out of Christianity. You end up having to un-learn many things you were taught as truth, and accepted at face value. However, if they will recognize that such practices are wrong, and start to learn , then they have already begun the conversion process back to Judaism. I am also new to all this. Where would be a good place to start studying? I have been doing some indiscriminate studying and reading, but I feel as if I am going on this journey rudderless. Where would you suggest I start relearning the ?
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 19, 2005 16:22:27 GMT -8
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Post by pblondeau46 on Jun 19, 2005 16:54:26 GMT -8
Thanks Reuel
I have actually done some study already. I have read some good articles too. For example "Not under the Law", " Greek versus Hebrew mind". I guess I should just begin to study from the beginning. I will begin with the commentaries from Artscroll. If you have any other suggestions please let me know.
Thank-you.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 19, 2005 17:06:54 GMT -8
Just read like you would read any other book...from the beginning. The pattern should be, read, bless Adonai, and do. Read, bless Adonai, and do. Repeat over and over again. If you do this you will grow and learn more than any of your teachers... "Oh how I love Your ! It is my meditation all the day. You make me wiser than my enemies by Your Commands; for they are forever mine. I have more understanding than all my teachers; for Your Testimonies are a meditation to me. I understand more than the aged, for I keep Your Precepts." - Tehillim (Psalms) 119:97-100 In Yeshua's name, Reuel
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jun 19, 2005 19:36:17 GMT -8
Shalom pblondeu46, Your heart is in the right place, and you have already taken your first steps. Congratulations! As Reuel said, just keep studying and implementing bit by bit. That is the best way to learn. Always continue to ask questions, and seek out the answer. Keep in mind that this is going to be a continual learning process. There will never come a time when you know and understand all the and mitzvot. Remember that ever since Moshe received the Torahs on Sinai, there has always been a continual learning process involved. So be strong, stand steadfast in the faith, and may El Avinu guide your paths as you continue to learn and grow. And by the way, don't be afraid to ask questions of any of us. There's no such thing as a dumb question.
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Post by Mark on Jun 20, 2005 3:52:43 GMT -8
HI Pauline, I would also suggest that you find a group of like-minded folk to fellowship among (even just by e-mail or periodic visits). I checked www.yashanet.com and you have at least two Messianic fellowships within about an hour's drive from you- Toronto and Hamilton. Often, by contacting them, you will find that there is someone closer to you thant they know about but who do not advertise their existance. We visited a synagogue about an hour from where we live and learned that a fellowship was meeting in a home less than half a mile from us! I'm not saying that fellowship should replace your study nor personal worship, but I am suggesting that two are better than one (Ecclesiastes 4:9-12). While I go my own way with study and personal meditation, I also find value in following along with Parsha- the Jewish scheduled reading of . There is a one year Parsha and a three year. Upon contacting your local group, I would ask them which they use. This not only gives you a feeling of systematic progression on your study; but it also gives you a fresh commonality with other believers when you come together to discuss Scripture. It really helps knowing that you have both recently treaded the same ground. We're rootin' for ya! Mark
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Post by pblondeau46 on Jun 22, 2005 4:25:39 GMT -8
HI Pauline, I would also suggest that you find a group of like-minded folk to fellowship among (even just by e-mail or periodic visits). I checked www.yashanet.com and you have at least two Messianic fellowships within about an hour's drive from you- Toronto and Hamilton. Often, by contacting them, you will find that there is someone closer to you thant they know about but who do not advertise their existance. We visited a synagogue about an hour from where we live and learned that a fellowship was meeting in a home less than half a mile from us! I'm not saying that fellowship should replace your study nor personal worship, but I am suggesting that two are better than one (Ecclesiastes 4:9-12). While I go my own way with study and personal meditation, I also find value in following along with Parsha- the Jewish scheduled reading of . There is a one year Parsha and a three year. Upon contacting your local group, I would ask them which they use. This not only gives you a feeling of systematic progression on your study; but it also gives you a fresh commonality with other believers when you come together to discuss Scripture. It really helps knowing that you have both recently treaded the same ground. We're rootin' for ya! Mark Hi Mark Thank-you for all your kind suggestions. They are all good! I am familiar with the "Parsha- the Jewish scheduled reading". Actually we have a couple we meet with every week or so and we go through the readings and have a very lively discussion after. What fun! I am also familiar with Yashanet too. Lots of good stuff on there. I have done the Matthew study and some of the Romans study. Going to a local assembly is something else. My husband and I have not gone to church now for few years. We are coming out of the Word of Faith "cult". Lots of healing going on here. Lots of relearning too. One day maybe we will darken the doors of an assembly again. Right now it does not seem probable.
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Post by pblondeau46 on Jun 22, 2005 4:29:08 GMT -8
Just read like you would read any other book...from the beginning. The pattern should be, read, bless Adonai, and do. Read, bless Adonai, and do. Repeat over and over again. If you do this you will grow and learn more than any of your teachers... "Oh how I love Your ! It is my meditation all the day. You make me wiser than my enemies by Your Commands; for they are forever mine. I have more understanding than all my teachers; for Your Testimonies are a meditation to me. I understand more than the aged, for I keep Your Precepts." - Tehillim (Psalms) 119:97-100 In Yeshua's name, Reuel I have tried to do this, but sometimes I don't feel I understand enough. I need some type of commentary, so I use the artschroll and Julie Parker commentary for the weekly reading. I'm not confident enough to rightly divide or understand what I am reading in the proper context. Thanks for all your support.
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Curt
Full Member
Posts: 136
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Post by Curt on Nov 22, 2005 18:39:52 GMT -8
Personally, I think a nice place to start restoring the Jewishness of Christianity is the Sabbath itself. Our church recently had a series of pastoral sermons upon the subject of the Sabbath. It was culminated by a special Friday night service bringing in the Sabbaths the way the Jewish in Israel do. The seven candle lampstand was lit. There was the Jewish twisted bread which name I now forget, there was the grape juice (unfermenated wine or new wine). The father blessing the wife and the children and I believe the wife blessing also. These are traditions any family can incorporate into their families. The Sabbath is a delight and that night it indeed was. I might not believe in restoring all Jewishness to Christianity but this is certainly a good place to start. The Sabbath should be fun not a burden. It should be a delightful experience like an eagle soaring in the air.
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