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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 13, 2005 13:49:39 GMT -8
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Post by Blake on Feb 14, 2005 1:51:37 GMT -8
My brothers, do not abandon your gentile brothers to ignorance and eternal damnation! For you, the Yehudim, have been chosen by God in the last days to teach the gentiles the and reunite us all unto one body like it was in the days of the Apostles. The Aversary knows this and has sought hard for your destruction and to fill the gentiles heads with hatred for you. But has preserved you, and He shall show the way to prepare the gentiles and all the Earth for his son's return. Ameyn!
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 14, 2005 12:14:24 GMT -8
I don't think that I have done this as I have always communicated and stood by the statement that there is neither Jew or Gentile in Messiah, but one new man being part of the commonwealth of Israel. I have always communicated that there is only one for both the native born Israelite and the foreigner/goyim (Num.15:15-16) and the Gentile has equal standing in Israel if he takes hold of the covenant (Isa.56). I hope this clears things up. Shalom, Reuel
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Post by Blake on Feb 14, 2005 14:59:25 GMT -8
My friend, I was not speaking of you or anyone is general. It was jsut that I saw some posted on this thread who seemed to be discouraged enough to abandon thier brothers.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 14, 2005 16:54:49 GMT -8
Shalom Blake, I just wanted to clarify as I was under the impression that you were responding to our recent posts. Brachot b'Yeshua (Blessings in Yeshua), Reuel
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Post by Mark on Feb 25, 2005 6:04:03 GMT -8
My friends, I grieve for the church that has abandoned God in pursuit of a politically correct savior. It is so ironic that "Christians" who claim to be followers of Christ are rather followers of Marcion, followers of Augustine and followers of Luther, completely rejecting the words of Messiah, "Man shall not live by bread alone but according to every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God." "Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men. They speak vanity every one with his neighbor: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak. The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?" (Psa 12:1-4 KJV) I have a passion for the gentile church- they believe in the Son only as the means to protect them from the wrath of the Father. They reject the totallity of what it means to walk in Him and are thus condemned to walk in hypocricy and futility. Pray that they come to understand the way of Messiah, His Truth and His life. Would that my words could convince them of the life that is in ! So shall I keep thy law continually forever and ever. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts. (Psa 119:44-45 KJV) Pray with me that they should recognize the hardness of their heart, the conditional salvation that they require of God, the hope of eternity that they withhold from the world (1st Corinthians 15:34)
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 25, 2005 11:09:56 GMT -8
Couldn't agree more.
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Post by cwvwarrior on Mar 13, 2005 8:14:45 GMT -8
My goodness! It seems I am a heathen! Having no heritage with Judaism except by faith, I am very confused by this line of thinking. My Christian family has talked about the details of "The Law". We have wondered for example if we are supposed to be eating shrimp! The biggest question I have is, what do you do with Acts 10 and 11? It is an amazing story which says alot about where the Hebrew-Christian faith took a turn. Paul writes about this a great deal. What do you think about what he said? Just so we are on the same page, I believe the Old and New testaments are God-breathed. No mistakes, just mistaken interpretations by the church establishment. Also, I do not disregard Judaism as being hugely important to understanding who our God is. I love reading Zion's Fire, a mag put out by Zion's Hope, Marvin Rosenthal founder. There are great truths to be found!
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Mar 13, 2005 19:29:10 GMT -8
Mashlomech cwvwarrior, Here is a link to the Acts 10 discussion: Acts 10 DiscussionFeel free to jump in and ask questions.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Mar 13, 2005 21:58:35 GMT -8
Heathens would be considered those outside of the covenant of G'd. You have something in common with Ruth. I apologize for any confusion. It doesn't matter if one is Jew, or Gentile. All that matters is if one is a son or daughter of the covenant and if they are faithful to that covenant. Shalom in Yeshua The Messiah, Reuel
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Post by Mark on Mar 14, 2005 4:34:44 GMT -8
Shalom cwv, I really appreciate your sharing your concerns openly. You're right on- the Scriptures are consistent and without contradiction, yet, many have taken verses out of their context in order to justify their position (it's called eisegesis or reading your own interpretation into the text). In other cases, translators have boldly and maliciously altered Scripture. In regard to the unclean meats issue the case is most obvious. Notice in Acts 10 that God never said the word "unclean". He said, "What I have cleansed, don't call common." There is a difference between unclean and common. Unclean animals are those specifically given as detestable by God- not edible. Common animals are those which are clean but have either been killed improperly or have had close association with animals that are unclean. Here's the necessary point, if the unclean animals had not been there on the sheet, the clean animals would not have been immediately recognized by Peter as common. Unclean animals cannot be cleansed. Common animals can and God tells Peter, "What I have cleansed, don't call common." This is necessary to understand what the Christian church has done with Romans 14:14. "I know that nothing is unclean of itself." Check your Strong's concordance on this one. Look up the word "unclean". It is a mistranslation. The word that is used in the Greek is koinos: common. Finally, the most diabolical is Mark 7:19 where in all modern English translations it is stated that Yeshua declared all meats clean. Look at any translation published before the twentieth century. That phrase is not there. It's not in the Greek either. The sentence that blatently says Yeshua is declaring all meats clean (contradicting Matthew 5:17-19) was added by the translators who wished to defend their own theology. The church that we see today is not a Christian or a disciple of Christ. It is a manipulation of Pauline epistles interpretted in such a way as to deny even the teachings of Christ. Yeshua taught Law. Paul taught submission to (Romans 6). Are we, gentiles, called to become Jews? I believe that we are called to walk even as Yeshua walked, that we are to be imitators of Paul even as he was an imitator of the Messiah. This doesn't mean that we have to become Jewish proselytes before we can be saved; but throughout Scripture, we the stranger are welcomed in to join. The Church has gotten this a little confused, rather than being grafted into the olive tree (ref. Romans 11) they have cut it down and planted their own brambles.
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Post by cwvwarrior on Mar 17, 2005 14:56:53 GMT -8
Thank you for your thoughts and showing me I am not a heathen or somehow rejected.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Mar 17, 2005 17:32:48 GMT -8
Shalom cwvwarrior, Truly the scriptures communicate that we are to be united by the truth. Most division in the "Church" today stems from their own doctrine (which usually includes what parts of the Word of G'd they decide are authoritative). At any rate, it is by their own tradition that most of these different sects of Christianity have arisen. Therefore, the question must be asked; Are those whom hold the whole of the Word of G'd as necessary and authoritative in a believers life the same as those whom are causing the true division in the body of Messiah? It should be the truth (Psalms 119:142) that unites believers in Messiah. Unfortunately, when we stay true to the truth found in the word of G'd, it will divide us from many people as Yeshua has described.... "Don't think that I came to send peace on the earth. I didn't come to send shalom, but a sword. For I came to set a man at odds against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man's foes will be those of his own household." - Mat.10:34-36 Has the scriptures given the "Church" any authority to dispense with any of G-d's word as authoritative in a believer's life (2Tim.3:16-17)? Has Messiah given us any such luxury (Mat.5:16-19)? As believers in Messiah are we not to avoid sin (1John 3:4)? Do not be deceived, the religion/faith of Yeshua and His disciples was a form of Judaism. What I mean by this is that is was a based faith in the G'd of Israel. The Christianity we see today is not what Yeshua and His disciples practiced. I understand that this is hard for the Christian today to accept, but it is the truth. Most misunderstandings in Christianity come from the writings of Rav Sha'ul (Paul). We would be happy to discuss any passages that concern you one at a time in the areas of the forum designated for them. Shalom chaver (friend) Reuel
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Mar 17, 2005 19:22:18 GMT -8
Well, as usual, Reuel beat me to the punch. That being said, I believe that the "Church" has been corrupted beyond repair, and a true believer in Messiah needs distance themselves from such untruths and live their life in a manner pleasing to HaShem. ie... observance All throughout the TaNaK ( , Prophets, Writings) & Ketuvim Netzarim (Writings of the Nazarenes) we see that the is truth (Psalm 119:142), it is perfect (Psalm 18:30), and it defines for us what sin is (1 John 3:4 & Romans 3:20). Now after all that, how can the "Church" sit and tell people that has been done away with and is not to be kept. That is an outright lie and tantamount to blasphemy. [ I'm sorry if that seems harsh, and it's not directed at you, but at them. They are the ones responsible for perpetrating such falsehoods.] Now, you brought up an important issue that I feel needs to be addressed, so I will direct you here: click me. Actually, it was not the P'rushim (Pharisees), but the Tzeddukim (Sadducees) who had an attitude of legalism, and of observing the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law. Also, we can see that Yeshua drew most of his thoughts and teachings from the Pharisaic school of Hillel as evidenced by the following (and this is just a small sampling): The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. - Mark 2:27 The Sabbath was given into your hands, and you were not given into her hands. - Talmud Bavli (Yoma 85b) Insulting someone is like murder.- Matthew 5:21-22 One who shames the face of his fellow, it is as if he has murdered him.- Talmud Bavli (Bava Mezia 58b) Gazing lustfully upon a married woman is akin to adultery.- Matthew 5:28 One who gazes lustfully upon the small finger of a married woman, it is as if he has committed adultery with her.- Talmud Bavli (Kallah, Ch. 1) As we can see, there is a direct correlation here between Yeshua's teachings and that of the P'rushim (Pharisees). And did not Rav Sh'aul (Rabbi Saul) state on several occasions that he was a Pharisee? (Acts 23:6, Acts 26:5, and Philippians 3:5) The whole point of the matter is that the Pharisees have gotten a bad rap as being the type of people one would not want to associate with. But in truth, they shared a common bond with the Netzarim and often stood shoulder to shoulder together.
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Post by cwvwarrior on Mar 20, 2005 11:11:48 GMT -8
Dear Chaver, ;D Okay, since you are so far being very patient with me, I will keep going! Now that I see we have a fundamental difference in how we interpret Paul's teaching and even quotes of Jesus are not seen the same way, maybe going to scripture isn't the way to go. We read the same words and come up with opposite meaning! Reuel, your response sounds like my theme at www.christianityisjewish.blogspot.com Truth will either unite us or divide us. There are so many moral issues which the church has diluted. I am sure my blog will offend many readers. I absolutely do talk about the idea, ALL scripture is authoritative. This is definitely a problem with interpretation. The early church had the very same clashing of ideas. Because they were in the position of uniting two radically different worlds into one faith, Paul's purpose was to do this by dwelling on the Law openly. On the one hand were the gentiles who could surely accept a new way of life in Righteousness, giving up the various immoral behaviors ie lying, idolatry, sexual sin, gossip, whatever. Paul was shown the futility in converting them to ritualistic morality so he argued against forcing circumcision, (Rom. 4:4-12; Gal. 5:1-12), change of diet, previously discussed. He realized, as do I, that asking these things is like asking the Jew to abandon these practices. That's why Paul never did. Either way was not necessary and was "more trouble than it was worth" because the issues of behavioral morality were the crux of the matter. Jesus said to Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself. This encompasses the whole Law. Jesus expanded on adultery by saying it is a sin of the heart to even look at someone the wrong way, as Notzri Y'hudi pointed out. The heart is where we find the answers to this disagreement. What if gentiles had been forced into Jewish rituals? This wouldn't be a matter of the heart anymore. Most people like me wouldn't get it. "Why am I doing this kosher thing again?" Where would the meaning be. On the other hand, I completely get ideas like pleasing Him and following Him and loving Him. He doesn't want me to lust, or lie, or ignore Him or my neighbor in need. These Laws, I can commit to with my whole heart. Even Paul's difficult teachings, submit to your husband and no women teaching in the church, I have accepted as part of pleasing our Lord. So I am wondering, if you will be perfectly honest, where does this stubborness (denying Jewish ritual) leave Christianity and believers like me? There is so much revelation in the Hebrew books! That excites me! Much of Christianity has missed this and will hopefully do better. God didn't allow mistakes concerning His revelation. This debate was settled in Scripture long ago. Paul's writings were allowed to stand. Someone had to change in attitude, not necessarily behavior. Attitude toward had to lighten up or all the gentiles were going to have to abide. There is no other choice. We can't seem to get past this?
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