Angel
Junior Member
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..." Hosea 4:6
Posts: 50
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Post by Angel on Mar 21, 2004 23:37:08 GMT -8
Shalom & Blessings of Yeshua HaMashiac to All!
I have been reading (again) a book by David Stern titled "Restoring the Jewishness of the Gospel". This book was written /published in 1988-1990.
(David Stern is the translator of the "Jewish New Testament" and the "Messianic Jewish Manifesto" )
Three main points that he makes in this book were interesting to me:
- 1) Christianity is Jewish < duh! ~ that's a no-brainer! >
- 2) Anti-semitism is Un-Christian
- 3) Refusing or Neglecting to Evangelize Jews is Anti-semite < doesn't Ephesians 4:11 state that "SOME are called to be evangelists"? >
There are a lot of other interesting comments made in this book and I'm wondering if anyone else has read it and has any opinions on his work...
I am blessed to bless....
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Mar 22, 2004 12:45:41 GMT -8
Angel, I have not read either of these books, but I do know of them. I do have the Bible Mr. Stern translated (CJB), and His commentary. He has done a great work in the body of Messiah. I don't agree with all of his theology...but hey, I havn't met one person that I agree fully with yet. He is defintely on the right track. Although, I don't agree with some of the comments made in his writings in regards to whom the of YHVH is attended for. I believe His if for both Jew, and Gentile whom have joined themselves to the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Yeshua HaMashiach (as the scripture states Mat.5:16-19, Numbers 15:15-16). This is something I would be happy to discuss in another thread. I tend to lean towards the writings of "First Fruits Of Zion" whom share my views on this issue, and whom I have found accurate in many areas. Books such as " Rediscovered", and "Take Hold" have been great reads! YHVH's is for the community of the redeemed! Shalom in Yeshua, Reuel
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Post by mufflerdragon on Jul 27, 2004 10:21:05 GMT -8
As of late, I have to admit that I am becoming more of an advocate of removing anything 'christian' in my life.
But I also understand that this is not-so-common worldview.
The only reason I am bringing this up in this thread is because I don't think we necessarily need to restore the Jewishness of Christianity. It is a defiled organization. The route preferred by some might be to go back to the root (Judaism) and start there instead of trying to work into a structure that has a lot of un-G-dly influences.
m.d.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 27, 2004 11:07:21 GMT -8
Welcome mufflerdragon! You have a good point, and I agree. The Christianity that we see today -does not- represent the practice, and faith of the original Assembly of believers/Church, but reflects the system established by the pagan ruler Constantine. Although, because most Christians will not immediately abandon this structure, many times we find ourselves teaching within the frame work in which they are camped. Shalom, Reuel
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Post by azumah on Jul 27, 2004 15:00:53 GMT -8
Is anyone out there of the opinion that a huge stumbling block since the fall of man has been trying to cleanse ourselves from the outside in, as oppossed from the inside out?
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 27, 2004 15:08:23 GMT -8
Shalom Azumah I would agree. And, how would you say this relates to restoring the Hebraic nature of the original faith of the disciples, and that of Yeshua HaMashiach? In His name, Reuel
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Post by azumah on Jul 28, 2004 11:22:33 GMT -8
I believe the diciples understood this and they that following did clean you this way. When was done away with a few centuries later, traditions began that could not be viewed as cleansing (hence the crusades, inquisitions, etc.) You are naturally going to have some bad fruit when worshipping Mary, trees, and/or rabbits. I can't say this for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that they did not realize that all the idol worship was the reason they were bearing such bad fruit (they were so disillusioned, they didn't even know the fruit was bad). Anything you practice will effect you from the inside out. If it's something other than , watch out! In regards to Yeshua, I believe HE is the word becoming flesh. That word is the . Not the Apostles creed, traditions of christmas, the book of Mormon, or any of your standard Christian theology (accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour before you die and you will not go to hell). azumah
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 28, 2004 11:34:11 GMT -8
Amein brother Azumah!
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 9, 2005 17:27:29 GMT -8
Thought I'd add my 2 cents here (even though it's an old thread). Before I start, I would like to say that there are several views that have been expressed that I agree with. Now to my POV: I honestly don't believe that Christianity can be made jewish, nor that Christians would want such a thing. I don't believe that it can be reformed either. Christians (Catholics included) openly practice idolatry, make graven images, violate the Sabbath without due cause, don't keep kosher, and believe in a Messiah that "came to set you free" from the . These are just a few examples of the differences between Judaism and Christianity, there are many more. The two beliefs couldn't be further apart. That is why I believe there can be no reconciliation between the two. Either you remove yourself from a false belief, or you remain content in your ignorance and stubborness.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 9, 2005 20:48:53 GMT -8
You are right, but unfortunately most of them won't jump right in. For most it will happen in stages.
Shalom achi,
Reuel
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 10, 2005 15:20:20 GMT -8
This is true. I think that is the case with anyone coming out of Christianity. You end up having to un-learn many things you were taught as truth, and accepted at face value. However, if they will recognize that such practices are wrong, and start to learn , then they have already begun the conversion process back to Judaism.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 12, 2005 13:30:35 GMT -8
Shalom NotzriYehudi, I don't know if I would describe it to them as converting to Judaism as this idea may be a stumbling block to them accepting a based life in Yeshua The Messiah. Just my thoughts... Brachot b'Yeshua, Reuel
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 12, 2005 20:35:20 GMT -8
Well, I do see your point, but I really wouldn't describe Judaism as a stumbling block. In another thread, I pointed out that if you put your trust in the G-d Of Yisrael, the Jewish Messiah & the of Moshe, then you have joined yourself to the community of Yisrael, and for all intents and purposes, you have become an observant Jew. This carries with it serious implications and responsiblities; not just for the proselyte, but for us as a community, since we are all responsible for each other. Under those circumstances, I can understand why the Rabbinical process is set up like it is, although I don't believe it's necessary for conversion. The crux of the matter, is that those who are involved in Christianity need to turn away from it and back to the true Messiah-based faith of Judaism.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 12, 2005 22:28:44 GMT -8
Brother NotzriYehudi,
You have some excellent points. Although the true faith of the Bible and of Messiah is truly just another sect of Judaism, it is probably best to describe it in another way to Christians whom are coming out of a system that holds contempt for Judaism. I agree that the Judaism of Yeshua and His disciples should not be a stumbling block. But, as we were discussing earlier these Christians are coming out in stages and we don't want to inhibit a necessary stage with certain language that we use to describe the true faith of Messiah. Also, it is not so important to be known as a Jew as it is to be known as a member of the commonwealth of Israel characterized by faith in Yeshua and keeping His Father's commandments. If one is characterized by this, there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Messiah, but a new creation...
"Do not lie to one another, since you have stripped off the old man with his functions, and have put on the new, who is being renewed to knowledge according to the image of the One Who created him --where there is no Greek and Yehudi, circumcised and foreskin, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but the All in All--Messiah." - Col.3:9-11
"So that if anyone is in Messiah, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new!" - 2Co 5:17
When this happens people do not become Gentiles and not even necessarily do they have to be described as Jews. What they have done is become part of the commonwealth of Israel and it's covenant. In other words, even though someone may or may not be categorized as "Jew", it does not matter. The core of what I am trying to say is that the language we use shouldn't get in the way of hearing the truth at a certain point in arriving to the truth. I believe all that matters is that the defined goal which is described to these individuals is to become "those who keep the commandments of G'd, and the faith of Yeshua." (Rev.14:12).
Shalom,
Reuel
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 13, 2005 11:28:39 GMT -8
Shalom Reuel. You make some excellent points as well. I can agree with you that the language used is important. Christianity is rife with anti-Semitism whether they realize it or not. To some Christians, to even suggest that we are obligated to keep is considered blasphemy. They call it "bondage." And that's just , that's not even mentioning anything about Judaism in particular. (Speaking from personal experience) I think the best way to go about it when engaged in conversation, is to encourage them to seek out the truth for themselves, and not just believe everything they hear from others. I also agree that one does not necessarily have to be called a Jew to follow the G-d of Yisrael. Although, as a footnote, I would like to add that the worship of HaShem has been referred to as Judaism since the time of Ezra (possibly even prior to that). That is primarily why I refer to it as such.
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