Trinity

[Chizuk Emunah]

Interesting thoughts...

But do we not pray to HaShem when we say 'Avinu bhashamyim?' In that case, and in most cases within normative Judaism, we equate HaShem with the attributes of the Father. I believe that had Ein Sof not related to us his distinguishing characteristics as found in the Av, Ben, and Ruach, then we as humans, would not be able to relate to this infinite being.

As far as objects of worship, I am inclined to say that all worship should be directed to the Father. Throughout the Scriptures, we always see worship directed towards the Father and not towards the Ruach. Even Yeshua, when he was on Earth, taught his disciples to pray not to him, but to the Father.

[Rick]

Judaism teaches that HaShem defies all limits of time and space. In this concept he is known as Ein Sof, meaning "without boundaries." Ein Sof has chosen three distinct characteristics in which to make himself known to us. These are the three pillars of the G-d - head."

agreed as I also stated previously.

There is nothing wrong with quoting a historical witness as long as we don't claim it to be holy scripture. We would be foolish not to look into extra-Biblical historical sources to see how others have viewed the scriptures. I don’t think anyone here is fully endorsing all the writings of the Zohar and other such texts. I would say that those whom are less learned should focus on the foundation (TeNaKh).

Because of the level several books of the "New Testament" were written on, either the authors were out of their mind, or we can look at extra-Biblical texts and get an understanding of where they were coming from.

I don’t think any real weight is being given to the Zohar here. I think it was simply quoted as a thought perhaps conveying an accurate interpretation of the matter.

This was my purpose of quoting Zohar,to illustrate a point,(not to agree with the entirety of his writings), sometimes even in the darkest of places light shines through the cracks.

A problem I have with the Zohar's "Pillars of Godhead" is that the is Father, Mother, (Femine and Masculine aspects of Deity often found in pagan religions) and Son of Yah (who is supposedly Yehoshua HaMoschiach).

Ruach is a feminine term.

I believe this Mika'El gave up the glory and power of being the Archangel and became a man to save us all.

Sounds a little like "Jehovah's witness" heretical teaching. ;D

I believe that had Ein Sof not related to us his distinguishing characteristics as found in the Av, Ben, and Ruach, then we as humans, would not be able to relate to this infinite being.

Why G-d chose to manifest himself to us in three distinct forms is something we will someday know for certain,
"For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know, as I also have been known. (1Co 13:12). Until then we do the best we can with what HaShem has revealed to us.

I am inclined to say that all worship should be directed to the Father. Throughout the Scriptures, we always see worship directed towards the Father

Complete agreement.
Now having attempted to bring the entire thread to the central point.......I keep revisiting this, re-reading Scripture, and mulling over the various points raised,(all have their merit I might add), and I still come to the same conclusion.
Now on the basis of 'Scripture alone' I come to this summation:
The word "Trinity" never appears in the Scriptures. Scripture says there is one Elohim,(in Hebrew this IS a plural word), yet three aspects share the power and authority of G-d, the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh. They are distinct from each other; they have separate roles. Scripture tells us that there is only one El':

“Hear, O Yisra’ĕl: יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one! ” (D'varim 6:4)

Yet throughout the Scriptures we can find evidence of YHVH being three aspects in one. His plurality appears early in the Scriptures.

And Elohim said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the livestock, and over all the earth and over all the creeping creatures that creep on the earth.” (Beresh-t 1:26)

Notice that HaShem refers to Himself as ‘us’, supporting plurality. The Gospel of Mattitiyahu names the members of the triune:

“Therefore, go and make taught ones of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit,” (Mattitiyahu 28:19).

Yeshua tells us in the Gospel of Yochanan that,

“I and my Father are one.” (Yochanan 10:30).

Each aspect of the Godhead has a unique name, character and role. YHVH is the mind of G-d, Yeshua is the embodiment of G-d and the Ruach HaKodesh is the Spirit of G-d. We are made in His image with; body, mind and spirit. Each part of our nature is distinct from the other but works together; each aspect of HaShem is distinct but works together. When Yeshua spoke of G-d, He spoke of the Father. He prayed to the Father:

At that time יהושע responding, said, “I thank You, Father, Master of the heavens and earth, because You have hidden these matters from clever and learned ones and have revealed them to babes". (Mattitiyahu11:25).

HaShem spoke to Yeshua, naming Him as His Son:

and see, a voice out of the heavens, saying, “This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I did delight.” (Mattitiyahu 3:17).

The Spirit speaks TO G-d interceding WITH G-d on our behalf:

"And He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the set-apart ones according to Elohim." (Romans 8:27).

Because of this, then, the Yehuḏim were seeking all the more to kill Him, ‘because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He also called Elohim His own Father, making Himself equal with Elohim.' (Yochanan 5:18).

Each aspect of HaShem has the authority of G-d and the power of G-d.

“ chosen according to the foreknowledge of Elohim the Father, set apart by the Spirit unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of יהושע Messiah: Favour and peace be increased to you. ” (1 Kefa 1:2).

YHVH alone has the power of foreknowledge; YHVH alone has the authority to sanctify; YHVH alone has the authority of salvation. Each aspect of HaShem glorifies the others. The Son glorifies the Father:

"To Elohim, wise alone, be the esteem, through יהושע Messiah forever. Amĕn." (Romans 16:27).

The Father and the Son glorify each other:

יהושע said these words, and lifted up His eyes to the heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come. Esteem Your Son, so that Your Son also might esteem You,” (Yochanan 17:1).

The Spirit glorifies the Father and Yeshua Messiah:

“But when He comes, the Spirit of the Truth, He shall guide you into all the truth. For He shall not speak from Himself, but whatever He hears He shall speak, and He shall announce to you what is to come. “He shall esteem Me, for He shall take of what is Mine and announce it to you. “All that the Father has is Mine. That is why I said that He takes from what is Mine and announces it to you." ( Yochanan16:13-15).

If only HaShem is worthy of glory, the worship of each member of the Godhead by the other supports the triune. Each aspect of HaShem has an individual and collective role. Yeshua was HaShem’s presence on earth and the Ruach is HaShem’s comfort on the earth. Yeshua assumes the work of Savior in the New Covenant.

“And she shall give birth to a Son, and you shall call His Name יהושע for He shall save His people from their sins.” (Mattitiyahu 1:21).

In the Tanakh, only YHVH was Savior.

“I, I am יהוה, and besides Me there is no Saviour." (Yesha'yahu 43:11).

Yeshua shares authority with the Father. In the New covenant, HaShem revealed Himself in a new way by becoming one of us in the body of Yeshua Messiah. In the Tanakh, HaShem lived with His people.

“And I shall dwell in the midst of the children of Yisra’ĕl and shall be their Elohim. ” (Sh'mot 29:45).

In the New Covenant, YHVH sends His Ruach HaKodesh to dwell in us.

“Do you not know that you are a Dwelling Place of Elohim and that the Spirit of Elohim dwells in you? ” (1 Corinthians 3:16).

When HaShem established His New Covenant with us through Yeshua Messiah, He gave us a new way to commune with Him, through the Ruach HaKodesh indwelling us. The Father testifies to the Godhood of the Son and sends His Spirit to comfort us. He is also our Judge in heaven, while Yeshua Messiah is our mediator and the Ruach HaKodesh is our intercessor. Each aspect of HaShem has a unique function, yet they all share the work of salvation:

“ But when the completion of the time came, Elohim sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under , to redeem those who were under , in order to receive the adoption as sons. And because you are sons, Elohim has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!” ” (Galatians 4:4 -6).

The Scriptures don’t use the word ‘trinity’ but do name three aspects as; the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh. Each aspect of HaShem is distinct, yet they share power and authority. Each has a separate role, yet they share a collective mission. Each testifies to the Godhood of the other.

You can refer to the following partial list of Scriptures that illustrate the aspects of G-d and their relation to, and distinction of, one another;
Genesis 3:22; 11:7
Exodus 15:11
Deuteronomy 4:35
Deuteronomy 6:4-5
Deuteronomy 32:39
1 Kings 8:60
Job 33:4
Psalm 45:6-7
Psalm 110:1
Psalm 139:7-8
Isaiah 6:8
Isaiah 44:6-8
Isaiah 45:5-6
Isaiah 45:21-22
Isaiah 48:16
Isaiah 63:10
Isaiah 64:8
Hosea 1:7
Malachi 3:1-2
Matthew 28:19
Mark 1:10-11
John 12:41
John 14:16-17
John 14:26
John 17:3. 2
John 20:28
Acts 5:3-5
Acts 8:16
Acts 15:28
1 Corinthians 2:10-11
1 Corinthians 3:16
1 Corinthians 12:4-6
1 Corinthians 12:11
2 Corinthians 13:14
1 Thessalonians 1:1
Ephesians 1:2-3
Ephesians 2:18
Ephesians 4:30
Colossians 1:15-17
Titus 2:13
2 Peter 1:1

No matter how I slice it, dice it or add it, I come up with one+one+one=one

Shalom in the name of Yeshua
Rick

[messimom]

AMEN! I loved it Rick.

Shalom
Messimom

[Blake]

notzriyehudi said:

Even Yeshua, when he was on Earth, taught his disciples to pray not to him, but to the Father.

Wouldn't the clear understanding of Scripture be if Yehoshua HaMoschiach taught us to pray to him because he was not God..?

[Blake]

Sounds a little like "Jehovah's witness" heretical teaching. ;D

I may remind you keeping the laws of the , questioning the pagan trinitarian forumla, and disregarding Sunday for the Sabbath are also considered "heretical" just as the Messiah was considered a min by the Pharisees of his time and also his followers after his death and ressurection.

This idea is supported by Scripture:

And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia; (Young's Literal Translation)

Often translated as "One of the cheif princes" but this translation fits accurately as well without the influence of christian angel dogma and worshipping to influence it.
This would put Mika'El (who's very name means He who is like God) as the highest Being in heaven besides God, his Father.

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Daniel 12:1)

Mika'el is shown as "The Great Prince" and personal
guardian of Israel.

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9

Archangel only used twice in the Bible can easily be understood as a singular Being, a title to the Lord of the Angels, Cheif of YHVH's Host, a Great Prince in Heaven...

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:16

At the second coming the voice of the Archangel shall be the force that calls the righteous dead back to eternal life.
This is definately a Messianic mission described here.

And there was war in heaven: Mika'El and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels (ASV)

And in Daniel's sister book Revelations shows Mika'El as well, leader of the Armies of YHWH.

And he said, Nay; but as prince of the host of YHVH am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? Joshua 5:14 (ASV Sacred Name modification)

Here this Captain of YHVH's Armies is bowde down to and worshipped. Any other time in the Bible the angel rebukes when a man bows to them, for they are not God and not worthy of worship. This Captain was worthy of worship. and thereforce acting as God's voice and therefore one with God, a manifestation of God. The Messenger of YHVH is always a sign of God's immediate presence.

""Why G-d chose to manifest himself to us in three distinct forms is something we will someday know for certain,
"For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know, as I also have been known. (1Co 13:12). Until then we do the best we can with what HaShem has revealed to us.

I am inclined to say that all worship should be directed to the Father. Throughout the Scriptures, we always see worship directed towards the Father

Complete agreement.
Now having attempted to bring the entire thread to the central point.......I keep revisiting this, re-reading Scripture, and mulling over the various points raised,(all have their merit I might add), and I still come to the same conclusion.
Now on the basis of 'Scripture alone' I come to this summation:
The word "Trinity" never appears in the Scriptures. Scripture says there is one Elohim,(in Hebrew this IS a plural word), yet three aspects share the power and authority of G-d, the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh. They are distinct from each other; they have separate roles. Scripture tells us that there is only one El':

“Hear, O Yisra’ĕl: יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one! ” (D'varim 6:4)

Yet throughout the Scriptures we can find evidence of YHVH being three aspects in one. His plurality appears early in the Scriptures.

And Elohim said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the livestock, and over all the earth and over all the creeping creatures that creep on the earth.” (Beresh-t 1:26)

Notice that HaShem refers to Himself as ‘us’, supporting plurality. The Gospel of Mattitiyahu names the members of the triune:""

Honored beings such as kings and sometimes angels are referred to in a plural form because of their majesty. English Royalty are known to refer to themselves in a plural form to this day.
The Pagan Trinity is not support by Scripture at all, in fact all Baptisms in the Bible are recorded to be in Yehoshua HaMoschiach's name alone.

Jean Danielou, The Development of Christian Doctrine Before the Council of Nicaea, Vol I The Theology of Jewish Christianity, John A. Baker, ed. and trans. (London: Darton, Lonman, and Todd, 1964), p. 123 says, "The triune formula and triple immersion" do not come From Jewish Christian practice. Wilhelm Bousset, Kyrios Christianity - A History of the Belief in Christ from the Beginning of Christianity to Irenaeus, 5th ed., John Steely, trans. (New York: Abingdon, 1970), p. 292 says, "Baptism in the Pauline age was a baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus" Reed, p. 220 states, "The more archaic formula was undoubtedly some form of Lord Jesus Christ." Williston Walker, A History of the Christian Church (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1947), p. 58 asserts, "The trinitarian baptismal formula… was displacing the older baptism in the name of Christ." For additional citations, see William Chalfant, Ancient Champions of Oneness (1979; Rpt. Hazelwood, Mo.: Word Aflame Press, 1982), Chap. V.

The only time Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are mentioned are in the Great Commission at the End of Matthew, and was regarded by William Tyndale and many other bible scholars as a clerical addition.

[Rick]

You might take note though that Yeshau WAS worshiped and ACCEPTED worship; If He was not the "Word made Flesh" would this have been preserved in Scripture?, should Yeshua have ACCEPTED worship?
Mat 2:11 And coming into the house, they saw the Child with Miryam His mother, and fell down and did worship Him, and opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
Mat 8:2 Behold, a leper came to him and worshiped him, saying, "L-rd, if you want to, you can make me clean."
Mat 9:18 While he told these things to them, behold, a ruler came and worshiped him, saying, "My daughter has just died, but come and lay your hand on her, and she will live."
Mat 14:33 Those who were in the boat came and worshiped him, saying, "You are truly the Son of G-d!"
Mat 15:25 But she came and worshiped him, saying, "L-rd, help me."
Mat 18:26 Then the servant fell down and worshiped him, saying, L-rd, have patience with me and I will pay you all.
Mat 28:9 As they went to tell his talmidim, behold, Yeshua met them, saying, "Rejoice!" They came and took hold of his feet, and worshiped him.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him. But some doubted.
Mar 5:6 When he saw Yeshua from afar, he ran and worshiped him,
Joh 9:35-38 Yeshua heard that they had thrown him out, and finding him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of God?"
He answered, "Who is he, L-rd, that I may believe in him?" Yeshua said to him, "You have both seen him, and it is he who speaks with you." He said, "L-rd, I believe!" and he worshiped him.

When worship was offered to ANYONE other than Hashem/Yeshua, they were rebuked, we are in agreement on this point:
Act 10:25-26 When it happened that Kefa entered, Cornelius met him, fell down at his feet, and worshiped him. But Kefa raised him up, saying, "Stand up! I myself am also a man."
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “See, do not do it! I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers who possess the witness of יהושע. Worship Elohim! For the witness of יהושע is the spirit of prophecy.”

And he said, Nay; but as prince of the host of YHVH am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship,

he did worship "comma" as an act of;

and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? Joshua 5:14 (ASV Sacred Name modification)

This does not say he worshiped the "him" that "he said unto".

Here this Captain of YHVH's Armies is bowed down to and worshiped. Any other time in the Bible the angel rebukes when a man bows to them, for they are not God and not worthy of worship. This Captain was worthy of worship. and therefore acting as God's voice and therefore one with God, a manifestation of God. The Messenger of YHVH is always a sign of God's immediate presence.

I just don't see Yeshua and Miḵa’ĕl as being the same "being".

To say that Yeshua AND Miḵa’ĕl are one and the same is a stretch at best:
Rev 1:12-18 And I turned to see the voice which spoke with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lamp stands, and in the midst of the seven lamp stands One like the Son of Aḏam, dressed in a robe down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. And His head and hair were white as white wool, as snow, and His eyes as a flame of fire, and His feet like burnished brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters. And in His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His face was as the sun shining in its strength. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead, and He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid, I am the First and the Last, and the living One. And I became dead, and see, I am living forever and ever. Amĕn. And I possess the keys of the grave and of death.
Rev 12:7 And there came to be fighting in the heaven: Miḵa’ĕl and his messengers fought against the dragon. And the dragon and his messengers fought,
In Rev. Yeshua is always rreferred to as the "Lamb" or "Alef and Tav", so why is Miḵa’ĕl referred to separately and specifically and not also refered to as "the Lamb"? if they are indeed one and the same? Same author of all verses in this book, same vision, and yet the two "beings" mentioned are not the same.

The only time Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are mentioned are in the Great Commission at the End of Matthew, and was regarded by William Tyndale and many other bible scholars as a clerical addition.

Have you actually taken the time to READ the SCRIPTURES that I have referenced,(in their context), through-out this thread in previous posts? Much more than just in Mattitiyahu.
As you have "impugned" some Jewish "commentary's", I can also say the same for many "Christian commentary's" and other reference works; they all come under the same classification, ie; "Extra-Biblical" and therefore NOT SCRIPTURE. The whole point of my previous post was to rely on "Sola-Scriptura" to reiterate my conclusion; As a direct response to your previous statements, then you in turn also quote your own "extra-Biblical" references.
Is not the shoe on the other foot?

Brother Blake I understand your passion, we both share this attribute, and I admire your tenacity. I suppose at the end of the day we may just have to 'Agree' to 'Dis-agree'. What seems clear to me in Scripture, is obviously not how you see it. Although I do not agree with your position, you are entitled to your views and opinions and I respect them. I hope you feel the same. "Iron sharpens Iron", and I believe that is the purpose of this Forum. Many of my own views have 'evolved' and changed as a direct result of the often 'lively' topics here. As Mark has said many of us seem to be in an ongoing state of "un-learning" and re-learning from a scriptural perspective and not what we were 'force fed' by "Mainstream" Christianity. Being so indoctrinated myself, I am in all honesty probably most in need of re-educating.
As for the topic at hand; although terminology and interpretation may differ somewhat between Judaism and Christianity, the evidence for the 'multi-faceted qualities' of our Elohim seem quite obvious to me.

Shalom Aleykchem B'Shem Yeshua..
(Peace be upon you in the Name of Yeshua)
Rick

[Blake]

rej1s said:

You might take note though that Yeshau WAS worshiped and ACCEPTED worship; If He was not the "Word made Flesh" would this have been preserved in Scripture?, should Yeshua have ACCEPTED worship?
Mat 2:11 And coming into the house, they saw the Child with Miryam His mother, and fell down and did worship Him, and opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
Mat 8:2 Behold, a leper came to him and worshiped him, saying, "L-rd, if you want to, you can make me clean."
Mat 9:18 While he told these things to them, behold, a ruler came and worshiped him, saying, "My daughter has just died, but come and lay your hand on her, and she will live."
Mat 14:33 Those who were in the boat came and worshiped him, saying, "You are truly the Son of G-d!"
Mat 15:25 But she came and worshiped him, saying, "L-rd, help me."
Mat 18:26 Then the servant fell down and worshiped him, saying, L-rd, have patience with me and I will pay you all.
Mat 28:9 As they went to tell his talmidim, behold, Yeshua met them, saying, "Rejoice!" They came and took hold of his feet, and worshiped him.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him. But some doubted.
Mar 5:6 When he saw Yeshua from afar, he ran and worshiped him,
Joh 9:35-38 Yeshua heard that they had thrown him out, and finding him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of God?"
He answered, "Who is he, L-rd, that I may believe in him?" Yeshua said to him, "You have both seen him, and it is he who speaks with you." He said, "L-rd, I believe!" and he worshiped him.

I don't deny the Messiah accepted worship, in fact I pointed out in his pre-incarnate form he did as well.
He was the avatar of God, the lense that allowed the unknowable God to be focused into a form understandable to man. Acting as God's emmisary and His voice, he could accept worship.

[quuote]When worship was offered to ANYONE other than Hashem/Yeshua, they were rebuked, we are in agreement on this point:
Act 10:25-26 When it happened that Kefa entered, Cornelius met him, fell down at his feet, and worshiped him. But Kefa raised him up, saying, "Stand up! I myself am also a man."
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “See, do not do it! I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers who possess the witness of יהושע. Worship Elohim! For the witness of יהושע is the spirit of prophecy.”

We do agree then, and you must agree that Captain of YHVH's armies (Mika'El) is one with the divine as well?
Remember the testimony Yehoshua judge of Yisra'el gave regarding the Prince of YHVH's host.

And he said, Nay; but as prince of the host of YHVH am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, he did worship "comma" as an act of;

This does not say he worshiped the "him" that "he said unto".

Must we resort to such nitpicking? Yehoshua bowed at the feet of this Being and worshipped. How come any other time on the Tanakh when a man tried to bow down and worship they rebuked? Accept the clear understanding of Scripture friend...

{I just don't see Yeshua and Miḵa’ĕl as being the same "being".

To say that Yeshua AND Miḵa’ĕl are one and the same is a stretch at best:
Rev 1:12-18 And I turned to see the voice which spoke with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lamp stands, and in the midst of the seven lamp stands One like the Son of Aḏam, dressed in a robe down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. And His head and hair were white as white wool, as snow, and His eyes as a flame of fire, and His feet like burnished brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters. And in His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His face was as the sun shining in its strength. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead, and He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid, I am the First and the Last, and the living One. And I became dead, and see, I am living forever and ever. Amĕn. And I possess the keys of the grave and of death.
Rev 12:7 And there came to be fighting in the heaven: Miḵa’ĕl and his messengers fought against the dragon. And the dragon and his messengers fought,
In Rev. Yeshua is always rreferred to as the "Lamb" or "Alef and Tav", so why is Miḵa’ĕl referred to separately and specifically and not also refered to as "the Lamb"? if they are indeed one and the same? Same author of all verses in this book, same vision, and yet the two "beings" mentioned are not the same.

Are not the Lamb-like Beast and False Prophet the same being portrayed with different symbols? Messiah was incarnated into a humble human body, giving up all the majesty and glory of being the Prince of YHVH's Host to die as the Passover Lamb. When he was in heaven and cast out Samma'el and the ang his evil angels he is a powerful Being, bringing justice adn vengeance. Even so shall he come again to bring the vengence of an Almighty God towards humanity and the fallen ones.
The lamb symbolizes his mission of mercy and love for man, while the Archangel symbolizes his mission of justice and destruction.

The only time Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are mentioned are in the Great Commission at the End of Matthew, and was regarded by William Tyndale and many other bible scholars as a clerical addition.

Have you actually taken the time to READ the SCRIPTURES that I have referenced,(in their context), through-out this thread in previous posts? Much more than just in Mattitiyahu.
As you have "impugned" some Jewish "commentary's", I can also say the same for many "Christian commentary's" and other reference works; they all come under the same classification, ie; "Extra-Biblical" and therefore NOT SCRIPTURE. The whole point of my previous post was to rely on "Sola-Scriptura" to reiterate my conclusion; As a direct response to your previous statements, then you in turn also quote your own "extra-Biblical" references.
Is not the shoe on the other foot?

So, you accept blindly the bible handed down to you, often horribly and inaacuratly translated into english from unreliable and altered manuscripts?
The oldest manuscripts of Matthew do not contain this pagan interjection.
Research it yourself if you do not believe me....

[qupte]Brother Blake I understand your passion, we both share this attribute, and I admire your tenacity. I suppose at the end of the day we may just have to 'Agree' to 'Dis-agree'. What seems clear to me in Scripture, is obviously not how you see it. Although I do not agree with your position, you are entitled to your views and opinions and I respect them. I hope you feel the same. "Iron sharpens Iron", and I believe that is the purpose of this Forum. Many of my own views have 'evolved' and changed as a direct result of the often 'lively' topics here. As Mark has said many of us seem to be in an ongoing state of "un-learning" and re-learning from a scriptural perspective and not what we were 'force fed' by "Mainstream" Christianity. Being so indoctrinated myself, I am in all honesty probably most in need of re-educating.
As for the topic at hand; although terminology and interpretation may differ somewhat between Judaism and Christianity, the evidence for the 'multi-faceted qualities' of our Elohim seem quite obvious to me.

Shalom Aleykchem B'Shem Yeshua..
(Peace be upon you in the Name of Yeshua)
Rick

Yes, we shall disagree. I too came from Christianity and had to drudge through all the lies and found out for myself. You shall do the same.

[messimom]

Blake asked:

Must we resort to such nitpicking?

I have no intentions of interjecting myself into your guys' conversation as I have been happy to just read this one, however when I read that, I thought, "Yes, it is necessary to nitpick." As we know truth is "hidden" in the jots and tittles.......

Just my thought

Shalom

Messimom

[Rick]

So, you accept blindly the bible handed down to you, often horribly and inaacuratly translated into english from unreliable and altered manuscripts?
The oldest manuscripts of Matthew do not contain this pagan interjection.
Research it yourself if you do not believe me....

You seem to asume that I have not done any research.
So set aside Mattitiyahu; what about the previously cited verses in Yochanan? "Line upon line, precept upon precept"; The aspects of the Triune are appearant through-out scripture, from Beresh-t to Revelation.

You might read some of the papers published by these 'horribly-inaccurate and unreliable' scholors;
Frank Moore Cross, Hanc-ck Professor Emeritus of Hebrew, Harvard
John Barton, Professorr of the Interpretation of Holy Scripture, Oxford
Philip R. Davies, Professor of Biblical Studies, Sheffield
Lawrence H. Schiffman, Edelman Professor of Hebrew and Judiac Studies, N.Y. Univ.
Carol Meyers, Professor of Biblical Studies and Archaeology, Duke


"How do you say: 'We are wise, and the of YHVH is with us'? But see, the false pen of the scribes has handled it falsely.
The wise men are put to , they are dismayed and taken; See, they have rejected the word of YHVH; what kind of wisdom is in them"?
(Yirmeyahu 8:8-9)

Yes, we shall disagree. I too came from Christianity and had to drudge through all the lies and found out for myself. You shall do the same.

I just might have a couple of decades head start on you here


Shalom in the name of Yeshua

[Mark]

Time out, guys. Your vocabulary is starting to get aggressive. I realize that there is quite a bit of passion in your debate and it is very frustrating when another person is not accepting or understanding your conclusions. Please make sure that your posts are not intended to attack a person's intelligence or character.

Mark

[Blake]

The Trnity "is the central doctrine of Catholic faith. Upon it are based all the other teachings of the Church." Handbook For Today's Catholics, p 12.

The Roman Catholic Church's (AKA Mystery Babylon) central doctrine is the false pagan Trinity. Do you wish to share in their confusion?

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

The most common trinitarian "proof-text" does not appear in any greek manuscripts before the fifteenth century.... That's only 500 years ago.
Something added a mere five centuries ago by a Catholic scribe IS NOT SCRIPTURE.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing at all in the Tanakh that even hints at a Triune god. The "proof-texts" most given from Genesis hold no water understanding plural pronouns with majesty.
Elohim, a plural word was applied to Moses. Was Moses three persons? No.

John 1 is often given as supposed "proof as well".

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the Greek it would read that the Logos was with HO THEOS The God, or the Supreme Authority, the second God is simply theos which doesn't even neccesarily denote divinity, but simply rulership or authority. Just as elohim was applied to the judges of Israel.

John 10:30 "I and my Father are One"

Another "proof-text" that is often used. This small phrase doesn't have to denote physical oneness, but a oneness is will and like-thinking.

that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me. (WEB)

If John 10:30 proves the Trinity then you should add the twelve apostles into your pantheon of gods as well.

1 Corin. 15:28 When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all. (WEB)

If the Father, Son, And Holy Ghost are "echad" and equal, how could the Son be subjected to his Father?

Mark 13:32 But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (WEB)

Again, if the Father and Son are both fully God how can the Son not know something? Doesn't a god know everything?

Behold, my servant, whom I uphold; my chosen, in whom MY soul delights: I have put MY Spirit upon him... I am YHVH, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another. (Isaiah 42; cf Mt 12:18).

Again brother, I am not attempting to insult you or your intelligence. I am simply showing you the falseness of the trinity doctrine as I see it.

[Rick]

Blake

Again, if the Father and Son are both fully God how can the Son not know something? Doesn't a god know everything?

Do you deny the Deity of Messiah?

Reuel

Yes, when one does something in the name of another, it can be understood to be done in the authority of that person. Therefore, we are to make disciples of all the nations by the authority of the Father, Son, and Spirit...three aspects describing Elohim.

messimom

As we know truth is "hidden" in the jots and tittles.......

Brother Blake, Although I do not agree with your position, I respect it. I hope you feel the same, you are in my prayers.

In closing I would like to offer this list of versions that I have found in my own study to be either corrupt, or at the very least seriously 'bent'.

AMP Amplified Version
ASV American Standard Version
CEV Contemporary English Version
KJ21 21st Century King James Version
NAB New American Bible
NASB New American Standard Bible
NCV New Century Version
NIV New International Version
NIVI New International Version Inclusive
NKJV New King James Version
NLT New Living Translation
NRSV New Revised Standard Version
RSV Revised Standard Version
RV Revised Version
TEV Today's English Version

Veyahaftah et Adonai Yeshua elohecha, vechol levavcha.
(And you shall love the L-rd Yeshua your G-d with all your heart.)
Rick

[Blake]

rej1s said:

Do you deny the Deity of Messiah?

Reuel

Can you explain to me how God can be without this knowledge? Isn't having infinite knowledge and power one of the attributes of God?

For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)

These passages clearly differentiate between The One and Only God, the Father and his son, Yehoshua HaMoschiach. If the Messiah is God why would he need to mediate between God and Man?
Why doesn't the verse say, "There are two gods, and one mediator"?

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

"How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? (John 5:44)

"Do we not all have one father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously each against his brother so as to profane the covenant of our fathers? (Malachi 2:10)

You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. (James 2:19)

`Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'" (Isaiah 44:8)

This is an important doctrine. What could be more important than our understanding of of the God we worship? This is why our adversary has constantly attacked this doctrine throughout the ages.

Jesus answered, "The foremost is, `Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to Him, "Right, Teacher, You have truly stated that He is One; and there is no one else besides Him;" (Mark 12:29-32)

Did Messiah quote the passage as, "Hear O Israel, the Lords our Gods are one Lord?" No.

Brother Blake, Although I do not agree with your position, I respect it. I hope you feel the same, you are in my prayers.

In closing I would like to offer this list of versions that I have found in my own study to be either corrupt, or at the very least seriously 'bent'.

My friend, I have never ceased to respect you or love you as a brother in Messiah, but I cannot respect a doctrine of demons such as the pagan trinity that so many have slugged over from the Babylon (The Church) into Yisra'el.
I will continue to pray that you continue to study your Scriptures and not let the tradition of men corrupt your thinking.

Also, every single english bible is corrupt and lacking. The only true way to study the scriptures is too have some grasp of the origional launguages. This can be accomplished with dictionaries and concordances, but its better to learn the Hebrew and Greek (or the Aramaic New Testament, the Penutsta which I prefer).

Veyahaftah et Adonai Yeshua elohecha, vechol levavcha.
(And you shall love the L-rd Yeshua your G-d with all your heart.)
Rick

I appreciate the gesture, but my God is one true God, YHVH. Not the man Yehoshua HaMoschiach.

[Rick]

The only true way to study the scriptures is too have some grasp of the origional launguages.

You assume I do not?

I appreciate the gesture, but my God is one true God, YHVH. Not the man Yehoshua HaMoschiach.

Yeshua said to him, “I am the Way, and Truth, and Life. No one comes to My Father except by Me.
“If you know Me you also know My Father. And from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”(Yochanan 14:6-7)

יהושע said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father, and how do you say, ‘Show us the Father’? (Yochanan 14:9)

And the Word became a body and pitched His tent among us, and we saw His esteem, esteem as of the only begotten who is from the Father, complete in grace and truth.
(Yochanan 1:14)

And, beyond all question, the secret of rightousness is great: Eloah was revealed in the flesh, justified by the spirit, and was seen by angels, proclaimed among the Goyim, and was believed in the world, and was taken up in glory. (1Ti 3:16)

"The wages of sin is death" The atonement for our sins is a penalty that could only be paid by G-d. If Yeshua was 'only' a man, he then was also "born in sin", and therefore could not be "sinless" and "without spot or blemish". If Yeshua were 'only' a man, he COULD NOT BE the "lamb of G-d", He could not be "Immanu’ĕl; G-d with us" and therefore ALL of us are lost.

And if Messiah has not been raised, your belief is to no purpose, you are still in your sins! (1Co 15:17)

Yeshua answered him, "Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of G-d." (Yochanan 3:3)

Can you explain to me how God can be without this knowledge? Isn't having infinite knowledge and power one of the attributes of God?

And think in your nefeshot that which also Yeshua the Messiah thought, who, as he was in the likeness of Elohim, did not regard equality with Elohim a matter to be grasped, " but emptied His nefesh, took on the likeness of a servant, and came to be in the likeness of the sons of men". (Phi 2:5-7)

Yeshua, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts? (Mat 9:4)

But Yeshua, who knew their thoughts, said to them, "Every kingdom divided against its nefesh will become desolate, a house divided against itself will fall. (Luk 11:17)

“Now we know that You know all, and have no need that anyone should question You. By this we believe that You came forth from Elohim.” (Yochanan 16:30)

יהושע, then, knowing all that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” (Yochanan 18:4)

He said to him the third time, “Shimʽon, son of Yonah, do you love Me?” Kĕpha was because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Master, You know all, You know that I love You.” יהושע said to him, “Feed My sheep. (Yochanan 21:17)

Elohim is a proper plural noun used some 500 times by Moshe and some 5000 times in the B'rit Hadasha, it is always accompanied by a singular verb. Plural pronouns and plural verbs are extremely common, proving the Tanakh is not presenting a vague intimation of the triune aspects of Hashem.
The Triune G-d whom the Talmidim worshiped was the Elohim of the Tanakh. To them the concept of the threefoldness of Hashem was not new, but simply the expansion of the testimony of holy men of old.

After eight days again his talmidim were inside, and T'oma was with them. Yeshua came while the doors were locked, and stood in the center, and said, "Shalom be to you." Then he said to T'oma, "Reach here your finger, and see my hands. Reach here your hand, and put it into my side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." T'oma answered him, "My Adon and my Eloah!"
Yeshua said to him, "Now that you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and believe." (Yochanan 20:26-29)

"The was given in the wilderness, and, like the wilderness, it is free and open to all comers—without formalities or introductions: all that wish to do so can enter into it".
"You are not permitted to select injunctions of the which you consent to observe, and reject others for the observance of which you can find no reason. In accepting G-d's word one is bound to implicit obedience to it,".
"If you have acquired knowledge, do not simultaneously acquire a haughty spirit on account of your knowledge; and if you intend to expound G-d's word, recite to yourself twice or thrice what you intend saying. (Midrash Tanhuma)

"YHVH bless you and keep you.
YHVH make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you.
YHVH lift up his countenance upon you and give you shalom."

(Hmm...interesting, a three fold blessing....)
Shalom in the name of Yeshua
Rick

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Did Messiah quote the passage as, "Hear O Israel, the Lords our Gods are one Lord?" No.

The word for G'd here is "Elohim" which is plural. Also, the word for one is "echad" which can be understood as a unity of several parts making one. There is another word in Hebrew that can mean “one and only one” and that is the Hebrew word "yachad". But, the word "echad" was used instead of "yachad". So, I would not say that this would be your strongest argument.

I don't believe in three separate G-d's. I believe in one supreme G'd having three distinct parts to His anatomy. As to the physiology of that supreme being, I don't think anybody here clearly understands how that works, nor do I think we have been given the capacity to truly understand it at this point. I doubt that many here truly understand the physiology of the human brain...but, I am sure that the lack of this knowledge does not keep any here from believing that the human brain exists. There are many such examples as this in the world. If we cannot understand and accept worldly things, how will we understand when we are shown spiritual things?

Blake, you probably are aware that HaSatan is a master at imitating...that is, taking something of Adonai and perverting it...slightly altering it to create an effective lie. I believe that HaSatan has done something similar with this subject. He has taken a Biblical truth, slightly altered it to make it truly a lie. I think the lie is that there are three separate equal G-d's...G'd the Father, G'd the Son, and G'd the Spirit. Again, I would suggest that there is only one G'd revealing Himself and operating in three distinct capacities as revealed in His being. Just as my soul, spirit, and body are three distinct parts to my being and operate in three distinct capacities used to accomplish different functions...they are indeed three distinct aspects of my one (echad) being. We were in indeed made in the image of Elohim (a plural term for G'd). Like Him we where indeed made echad (a plural term for one) having three distinct aspects to our being. If one can understand this, such a one can begin to grasp the supreme being, YHVH...the one (echad) whom we call G'd.

But, if we choose to reject this evident truth...it is our choice. This is not a salvation issue. The B'surot Tovot (Good News/Gospel) does not require us to repent of believing or not believing that Yeshua's nature is divine. The B'surot Tovot requires us to repent of breaking , believe that Yeshua is indeed the promised annointed one, the promised Mashiach whom died for our sins and was also raised to life and that all those whom placed their trust in Him, all those whom where given power to walk in righteousness will be redeemed at His second coming. It is this same Yeshua whom was in the beginning "The Word" whom was with G'd, and whom was and is indeed part of G'd...and all things were indeed made through "The Word" of G'd. This "Word" whom is part of G'd ineed became flesh. In "The Word" was "nefesh/chayim" (soul/life)...He proclaimed Himself as the "way, the truth, and the life (Yochanan/Jhn 14:6). He is the true light...indeed the very Sh'khinah (glory) of G'd. This we know as the scriptures give witness to...

For it has been written (Yeshayahu/Isai. 45:23), "As I live, says YHVH, that every knee will bow to Me, and every tongue confess to G'd." - Romans 14:11

"Because of this also G'd highly exalted Him and gave Him a name above every name,
that at the name of Yeshua "every knee should bow," of heavenly ones, and earthly ones, and ones under the earth, and "every tongue should confess" that Yeshua The Messiah is "Lord," to the glory of G'd the Father.
- Phi. 2:9-11

From this we see that every knee will bow to G'd, yet every knee is also prophesied to bow to Yeshua. The supreme being has also told us that He would –not- give His glory to another....

"For My sake, for My sake, I will act; for how is it defiled? And I will not give My glory to another.
Listen to Me, O Ya'akov, and Yisrael My called: I am He; I am the First; surely I am the Last.
My hand surely founded earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; I called to them, they stood up together." - Yeshayahu (Isai.) 48:11-13

Yet, YHVH’s glory is indeed given to Yeshua as He is indeed part of G'd. We also see in the above passage the one whom founded the Earth, whom stretched out the heavens...and clearly the writings of the Brit Chadashah (New Covenant) describe all things being created through Yeshua...The Word of Elohim. We also see whom is described as the First and Last in the above passage. But, we also see the following…

“ And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet, as dead. And He put His right
hand on me, saying to me, Do not fear. I am the First and the Last,
and the Living One; and I became dead; and, behold, I am living forever and ever. Amen. And I have the keys to hell, and of death.”
– Rev. 1:17-18

To the above passage I ask; whom became dead and is now living? We see it again in the following passage…

“And to the angel of the assembly of Smyrna, write: These things says the First and the Last, Who became dead, and lived”
- Rev. 2:8

In the next passage we see the One describing Himself as the “Beginning and End” clearly identifying Himself…

“ I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last.
Blessed are the ones doing His commands, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and by the gates they may enter into the city.
But outside are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving a lie, and making it. I, Yeshua, sent My angel to testify these things to you over the assemblies. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the bright and morning Star.” – Rev. 22:13-16

Are the above passages simply bad translations, or perhaps outright lies? It certainly would be convenient to make this claim if your theology disagrees….Although, it takes very few lines to connect the dots.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel