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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on May 30, 2005 11:53:16 GMT -8
Regardless if you are of the Diaspora or not, salvation is given to any of the nations whom take hold of the covenant (Yeshayahu 56), for His House shall be a house of prayer for all nations (Yeshayahu 56:7; Yermiyahu 7:11). But, they must join Yisrael to take hold of the covenant. Those whom have a hunger for  and Yeshua are not necessarily part of the Diaspora (dispersion). In the end, it does not matter if you are Jew or Gentile. There is one G'd, one , and one Messiah for all. It is interesting to note that those whom categorize themselves as "Two House" translate the term "goyim" to mean the dispersed of Yisrael and not actually the Gentiles of the nations. While this may be true in some cases it is mostly the exception and not the rule. By doing this they believe when the term "Gentile" or "Gentiles" is being used in many places in the Brit Chadashah (New. Test.), it is actually speaking of the Diaspora and not Gentiles as most people understand the term. I personally believe in many cases that this is done in error...but, something to further discuss. Shalom, Reuel |
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Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Jun 1, 2005 16:43:53 GMT -8
I agree. "For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the L-rd shall be saved" (Romans 10.13) Anyone can be saved. Everybody should be saved, we are on our way to the banquet hall from the lobby, we must take everyone to the feast. (Pirkei Avot 4.16 , Luke 14)
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Post by Mercedes on Jun 2, 2005 15:38:07 GMT -8
Shalom Mitzvot,
When I say that Ephraim and Judah are the one's being gathered now it is not to exclude the Gentiles rather to fulfill scripture in the sense that first there is a gathering and harvest of Firstborn/firstfruits followed by the later harvest of tabernacles and of all peoples.
The only reason one precedes the other is that the servants of the kingdom of priests are chosen not for preference rather "PURPOSE".
What is our purpose? to serve the entire world that will be going up to Jerusalem Zech 14:16 "everyone who is left of all the nations shall go up from year to year to worship the king."
All in proper order at the appointed times.
Blessings,
Mercedes
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jun 2, 2005 18:29:08 GMT -8
Shalom Mercedes,
Thank you for clearing that up for us.
Berachot b'Yeshua,
Reuel
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Post by Dim12trav on Aug 31, 2005 4:37:14 GMT -8
Ephriam and Manassas were the first to recieve their lots assigned in Cannan and will probably the first to be called
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Post by Wavy_Wonder on Dec 7, 2005 20:50:43 GMT -8
I've actually written something on this.
Click here[/url] Edited by Admin.for my opinion on this.
I believe the two-house message is consistent with the scriptures and that there is overwhelming for it in the gospels and all over the NT. I believe it is the central theme of the gospel.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Dec 10, 2005 16:34:06 GMT -8
Shalom Wavy,
In discussion please do not link to other posts in other forums. Please just discuss the topic here as it unfolds.
Shalom chaver,
Reuel
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Dec 10, 2005 16:54:39 GMT -8
Personally, I find "Two House Theology" to be highly questionable in several areas. It contains hints of truth which I believe makes it seem "Biblical" to many. But, I would encourage people to not become too quickly associated with this sect. It does not matter if you are Jew or Gentile, and salvation is for all believers in Yeshua the messiah. The Jewish people as we know them today are from all the various tribes and I believe it is in error to refer to them as "Judah" when many of them are not in fact from the tribe of Yehudah. Furthermore, for those whom have clung to the "Two House Movement", many of them believe that they are from the ten lost tribes. They usually believe this because of their attraction to and their Jewish roots...therefore, they must be from the one of the 12 tribes right? Not. One must simply read Yeshayahu/Isa. 56 to see that it does not matter. Many Gentiles will have attraction to and the Jewish roots of their faith and this is encouraged, but it does not necessarily mean they are from one of the ten lost tribes. Many of these people claim to be from one of the tribes, yet not many are willing to take a genealogical test to prove it. Does the scripture speak of the two houses of Israel? Of course…but, I do not concur with the conclusions drawn by the Two House Movement. My question to those whom to subscribe to this theology would be, what is at stake?....And, why is this theology necessary to teach and identify yourself with? Furthermore, I have also seen a great arrogance and animosity against the Jewish people from many people identifying themselves with this sect. Also, the majority in the Messianic Jewish movement reject the "Two House Movement". Note: This post is directed at the theology in question and no one individual. Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
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Post by Wavy_Wonder on Dec 10, 2005 22:03:24 GMT -8
My fault about the link, Reuel.
In as little words as possible (if you would, please) or in as little references as possible, could you tell me what these are?
And this is why I believe it ties into the "mystery" references Paul uses, such as in Romans 11:25, Ephesians 3:5 and others.
Indeed.
This is true, but this has always been true. I was under the impression that the majority were from Judah, however, and that the majority of Ephraim Israel is still out in the nations becoming the fullness of the nations (Genesis 48:19; Romans 11:25).
Well, it is not outside of the power of YHWH, but still, as you say, attraction to these things does not make you an Israelites.
What conclusions may these be?
I don't understand the first question. But if I could answer it according to what I think you are saying, I'd say the promises of scripture are at stake. However, they will come to pass.
Well, I have not. The theology itself does not teach this. Scripture, according to this theology forbids this:
Isaiah 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
While I respect MJ's and what they represent, this has not bearing on truth.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Dec 13, 2005 17:16:19 GMT -8
Shalom achi,
Because the discusson is with you and not another person whom identifies themself as "Two House" (as views can vary), perhaps I should first get an understanding of how you personally believe. What are the tenants of what you believe indentifies you as "Two House". Please describe what you believe sets you apart as a "Two House" believer in general.
Shalom b'Yeshua,
Reuel
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Dec 14, 2005 16:41:29 GMT -8
Shalom brothers and sisters, We can continue to discuss this issue, but as this issue is one that is extremely divisive in the Messianic movement I would like to supply a link to an article by First Fruits Of Zion that is the official position of Ahavat Elohim Discussion forums regarding the Two House movement. I usually don’t like to post links to outside articles, but I am making an exception in this case. Furthermore, I will continue to discuss this with those whom are interested. But, I do recommend for everyone here on the forum to read this article before we get much further. The following is the link to that article: ffoz.org/downloads/Ephraimite-encounter.pdfI look forward to hearing your thoughts…. Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
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Post by Rick on Dec 14, 2005 17:03:23 GMT -8
Great article Reuel, thank you very much for the link. Very informative.
Blessings,
Rick
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Post by messimom on Dec 15, 2005 10:38:37 GMT -8
Excerpt from FFOZ article "Encounters with an Ephraimite" Page 13:
A good article written with an open mind. Thank you for the viewpoint. First Fruits of Zion is a good organization with a lot of good material.
Messimom
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Post by messimom on Dec 15, 2005 10:42:08 GMT -8
Moved from "Two house understanding of messianic judiasm":
You guys seem to be so stuck on the point of whether or not two house believers are actual descendants from Israel and all "Jews" are solely from the tribe of "Judah". Yet, I think that argument is nearly unproveable on both sides. In my opinion, it is merely a theory which lines up with scriptural understanding of YHVH's arrangement of His people. I, as a two-house believer don't get stuck on this. Yes, I think many converting believers are part of the lost tribes of Israel. Why? Because of numerous verses throughout scripture concerning the lost tribes. Can I offer those verses to you right now? No, I am not a Biblical encyclopedia like some here-although I desperately wish I was. I would have to spend a lot of time refinding verses which point toward this interpretation of scripture. Do I think ALL converting believers are from the lost tribes. No, certainly not. We need only look at Ruth to know that YHVH will bring any and all willing into the fold.
Do I think that the majority of "Jews" out there are from the tribe of Judah? Yes. The Bible plainly states that the 10 tribes were scattered and lost through out the nations. If I recall off the top of my head( so don't quote me without verification here-) that only leaves the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and the 1/2 tribe of Manessah. Those over time being grouped together and coming to be now called "Jews" by the world. So the declaration that Jews are mainly from Judah is merely paradigm based on biblical scriptures.
Also as a two house believer, I am not stuck on this part. This is not the main point of the scriptural interpretation of the two house theory. I respectfully ask for those of you so busy fault finding to slow down and put on your humility hat, if you will, and research the scriptures behind the two house theory before just attacking. None of us had a problem with researching our "christian faith", hence how we have ended up where we are in our various walks. So why do many become "Messianic" or "Messianic Jews" and not research that faith? If I have learned anything in all of this its that I've just begun to learn. Question everything, especially if man has had his hand on it. So, I continue to question and learn. Its not that I have personally found huge fault with traditional Messianic Judiasm, but rather that the two house theory seems to explain scripture better. I refuse to waste my time purposefully searching for fault, I am on a journey for truth.
That's my peace for now. Hope it helps and does not offend. My apologies if it came off that way at all to anyone.
Shalom
Messimom
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Post by Firestorm on Dec 15, 2005 16:14:10 GMT -8
I'd be willing to jab my finger to find out if I was descended from the lost tribes or not, but at the end of the day all I really want to do is walk closer with God.
Yes, I'd rejoice if I were found to be descended from the lost tribes, but I'm born again & that's the main thing.
I know a number of Jewish people are concerned about the number of non Jews who are attracted to the Messianic movement. They worry about what this does to its credibility in the wider Jewish community and they're concerned about people not showing the proper respect for tallits and kippas. IMHO every congregation will have its tire kickers and experience junkies, but if the Holy Spirit TRULY leads someone to a Messianic congregation one would be hard pressed to say they don't belong there. Also, is it such a bad thing if God imparts a strong love for Israel into the hearts of some Gentiles? From what I see & hear on the news, Israel needs all the friends it can get!
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and Yeshua are not necessarily part of the Diaspora (dispersion). In the end, it does not matter if you are Jew or Gentile. There is one G'd, one 
