Two House Theology, True or False?

[Wavy_Wonder]

admin said:

Shalom achi,

Because the discusson is with you and not another person whom identifies themself as "Two House" (as views can vary), perhaps I should first get an understanding of how you personally believe. What are the tenants of what you believe indentifies you as "Two House". Please describe what you believe sets you apart as a "Two House" believer in general.

Shalom b'Yeshua,

Reuel

Well, of course we have the numerous prophecies concerning the restoration of both houses by YHWH (through Messiah) in the scriptures.

Now from the viewpoint of some, the two-houses were reunited after the return to Babylon. If this is so, Messiah's first advent was random and meaningless.

This can't be true, however. Ezekiel 37 explicitly, in addition to other passages, refutes the claim that the two-houses were reunited long ago.

Secondly, if the view that he will deal with this sometime in the future is held, this also means his coming was random and meaningless because the whole purpose of his coming was to rebuild and restore Israel.

Thankfully, Messiah clears this up himself in Matthew 15:24. In Matthew 4 we find an example of his first mission being just that:

Matthew 4:13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zevulon and Naphthali:
Matthew 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying,
Matthew 4:15 The land of Zevulon, and the land of Naphthali, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
Matthew 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

Here areas of Ephraim Israel were referred to as Galilee of the Gentiles. This is very key. In context, according to Isaiah 9 (specifically quoting verse 2), this is clearly a reference to those Israelites who were living in the darkness of their exile.

Also in this chapter, he choses disciples and names them "fishers of men". Just being poetic? Or is he directly alluding to scripture? Jeremiah 16:14-16 will provide our answer and what exactly Messiah meant when he said this. He also declares the reversal of the curses of Ephraim Israel found in Hosea 1 in Matthew 5.

He also alludes to Ezekiel 34 in John 10, refering to himself as that Shepherd sent by YHWH (and who is YHWH) to restore Israel out in the nations and make them one fold with Judah.

So why didn't he complete this then? Let's check the scripture:

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Because of unbelief and outright rebellion, I believe the ultimate healing and restoration was put on hold, and he became the Righteous Servant in Isaiah 53.

Also, because Israel was divided against itself was the complete restoration put on hold. After mentioning that a house cannot be divided against itself in Matthew 12, he states (words of YHWH always in black italic):

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Those who know Messiah's true mission understand this and would do what's possible to learn and work to do this ministry, if it pleased YHWH to ordain him to do so.

Those against Yeshua are those sheperds in Ezekiel 34 that did not seek to help their brothers out in the nations. So YHWH had to do it himself (see Ezekiel 34:11 and the following verses).

Now, did he stop the work of the mission? No he did not. He continued it through his shlichim/apostles. He makes this clear in Acts 1:6-8, when the disciples asked him would he finally restore the kingdom to Israel (not build the "church" as Christianity teaches). He outlines the mission: Jerusalem, Judaea, Samaria, and to the furthest parts of the earth (where the exiles are).

The gospel to all nations is, in context, if we take the sum of the word (Psalm 119:160) into account, is all nations where the lost of Israel are found (including much of Judah). The fulfillment of the promise of Jeremiah 31:31 is fulfilled in Acts 2 with both houses present at the Temple (the ones from the nations were largely Ephraim). They shared things from "house to house" according to Acts 2:46, which is a hint of what all this was about.

Messiah said a house divided against itself will not stand (the house of Jacob as a whole as one nation). Judah cannot vex Ephraim Israel and vice versa.

This was part of Paul's calling to help in restoring Israel. He describes this in Ephesians 2 with making one new man from Jew + Gentile. Those who were "far off" in Ephesians 2:13 are the exiles of Israel. This term "far off" is significant and is found in scriptures such as Daniel 9:7, Isaiah 33:13, Isaiah 57:19, Ezekiel 11:16, Micah 4:7 and others in reference to the lost of Israel, scattered out in the nations.

Paul calls this a great mystery concerning the gentiles in Ephesians 3 and Ephesians 5, and also mentions this in Romans 11:25.

The answer is found in the "fullness of the gentiles". This is directly taken from Genesis 48:19 where Ephraim, Jospeh's Son, was promised to become a "fullness of the nations" by Jacob. The KJV, for example, has "multitude of nations". But please, look up the word for yourself.

This is also found in several places in Genesis concerning Abraham, Isaac and Jacob's seed and the promises and declarations that go with them.

Because of Messiah's true mission, the good news of the deliverance from captivity (as per Luke 4:18-20 where Messiah quotes Isaiah 61) can also reach out to those who are not biological Israelites and they also join as friends/companions such as in Ezekiel 37:16.

The Olive Tree of Israel as found in Romans 11 (though it is mentioned in the scriptures long before this was written) is a study that would prolong this post longer than it already is, even if it was shortened. So I'll leave you with this (if anybody reads).

I mean, there is overwhelming evidence for this stuff in the NT alone apart from the Tanach (but of course, to understand it you need to be familiar with the Tanach or at least have it taught to you as it was taught and is still being taught to me).

Peace/love.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom Wavy,

Yikes, that is a lot to share all at once. That will not make it easy for me to reply with a brief post….Well, get comfortable...

Well, of course we have the numerous prophecies concerning the restoration of both houses by YHWH (through Messiah) in the scriptures.

Yes, but the restoration of Israel does not support many of the “Two House Theology” assumptions regarding the Gentiles.

Secondly, if the view that he will deal with this sometime in the future is held, this also means his coming was random and meaningless because the whole purpose of his coming was to rebuild and restore Israel.

This is a good example of one of the teachings I object to in regards to “Two House theology”. It is the teaching that Yeshua only came for blood Israelites and not those of the Nations- Goyim – Gentiles. It was not Yeshua’s –whole- purpose to just rebuild the nation of Israel…it was also to be a light unto the Nations/non-Israelis.

Thankfully, Messiah clears this up himself in Matthew 15:24. In Matthew 4 we find an example of his first mission being just that:

Matthew 4:13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zevulon and Naphthali:
Matthew 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying,
Matthew 4:15 The land of Zevulon, and the land of Naphthali, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
Matthew 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

Here areas of Ephraim Israel were referred to as Galilee of the Gentiles. This is very key. In context, according to Isaiah 9 (specifically quoting verse 2), this is clearly a reference to those Israelites who were living in the darkness of their exile.

This is another example of what I object to in many of the “Two House” teachings…much of your proof texts to support the “Two House” theories are not clear texts supporting the theory. The conclusions drawn from these texts are in many cases simply conjecture and personal opinion. Yeshua of course was to be a light to Israel, but the scriptures also say that he was to be a light unto the Nations/Gentiles…

“Having therefore obtained the help that is from G’d, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moshe said would happen, how the Messiah must suffer, and how, by the resurrection of the dead, he would be first to proclaim light both to these people and to the Gentiles."
- Acts 26:22-23

Also in this chapter, he chooses disciples and names them "fishers of men". Just being poetic? Or is he directly alluding to scripture? Jeremiah 16:14-16 will provide our answer and what exactly Messiah meant when he said this.

“ Therefore, behold, the days come, says YHVH, that it shall no more be said, As YHVH lives, who brought up the children of Yisra'el out of the land of Egypt; but, As YHVH lives, who brought up the children of Yisra'el from the land of the north, and from all the countries where he had driven them. I will bring them again into their land that I gave to their fathers. Behold, I will send for many fishermen, says YHVH, and they shall fish them up; and afterward I will send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the clefts of the rocks.”
– Yermiyahu (Jer.) 16:14-16

Again, you have to infer what you are looking for from this passage, as it does not directly say what you are so boldly asserting.

He also declares the reversal of the curses of Ephraim Israel found in Hosea 1 in Matthew 5.

Again, there is no direct reference to what you are saying in Matt.5. to what you say is so clear.

He also alludes to Ezekiel 34 in John 10, referring to himself as that Shepherd sent by YHWH (and who is YHWH) to restore Israel out in the nations and make them one fold with Judah.

Again, nothing in this passage directly supporting what you are claiming. The sheep are no doubt part of greater Israel, but they are also all those whom hear his voice including those of the nations…not of Israeli descent. Yeshua says,

“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice. They will become one flock with one shepherd.” - Yochanan (John) 10:16

In the above passage he was talking to the people of Israel. The people “not of this fold” would be non-Israelites…Gentiles whom would later come and follow Him… and we see that Sha’ul (Paul) later was the one Yeshua sent to begin much of this work. Of course I know that “Two House” theology contends that Sha’ul (Paul) was not really sent to those of the nations (Gentiles/non-Israelites), but it asserts that they were really just lost dispersed Israelites. I believe that “lost Israelites” would naturally be part of the job, but was not the primary function of Rav Sha’ul.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Because of unbelief and outright rebellion, I believe the ultimate healing and restoration was put on hold, and he became the Righteous Servant in Isaiah 53.

The above passage deals with gathering all of Israel…not just the lost ten tribes. Also, are you suggesting that the prophecies about Mashiach benYosef as found in Yeshayahu (Isai.) 53 could have gone unfulfilled?

Also, because Israel was divided against itself was the complete restoration put on hold. After mentioning that a house cannot be divided against itself in Matthew 12, he states (words of YHWH always in black italic):

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Again, this is your conjecture from the above passage, as it does not directly say that it deals with the lost tribes of Israel…Yeshua was speaking of the house of HaSatan when referring to a house divided…take a look.

He makes this clear in Acts 1:6-8, when the disciples asked him would he finally restore the kingdom to Israel (not build the "church" as Christianity teaches). He outlines the mission: Jerusalem, Judaea, Samaria, and to the furthest parts of the earth (where the exiles are).

Again, you are assuming that these statements did not have non-Israelites in mind.

The gospel to all nations is, in context, if we take the sum of the word (Psalm 119:160) into account, is all nations where the lost of Israel are found (including much of Judah). The fulfillment of the promise of Jeremiah 31:31 is fulfilled in Acts 2 with both houses present at the Temple (the ones from the nations were largely Ephraim). They shared things from "house to house" according to Acts 2:46, which is a hint of what all this was about.

Again, it is simply conjecture and your opinion that “the ones from the nations” and “all nations” are primarily Ephraim as scripture does not directly say this.

Messiah said a house divided against itself will not stand (the house of Jacob as a whole as one nation). Judah cannot vex Ephraim Israel and vice versa.

Again, you are reading into this as the passage does not say that it speaks of Judah and Ephraim…Yeshua was speaking of the house of Satan. Much of what you are listing as your proof texts boils down to personal opinion and not clear scripture.

This was part of Paul's calling to help in restoring Israel. He describes this in Ephesians 2 with making one new man from Jew + Gentile. Those who were "far off" in Ephesians 2:13 are the exiles of Israel. This term "far off" is significant and is found in scriptures such as Daniel 9:7, Isaiah 33:13, Isaiah 57:19, Ezekiel 11:16, Micah 4:7 and others in reference to the lost of Israel, scattered out in the nations.

No, the passage does not say Judah and Ephrayim, it says Jew (Israeli descent) and Gentile (non-Israeli descent). The term “far off” has more than one application than just the Ten lost tribes.

Paul calls this a great mystery concerning the gentiles in Ephesians 3 and Ephesians 5, and also mentions this in Romans 11:25.

You are reading your theology into it as the texts do not directly say what you would like them to. Two House theology would have most of the promises given to those of non-Israeli descent (as we see them in the writings of the Brit Chadashah/New Cov.) stripped from them. This is one of my greatest objections to Two House theology.

The answer is found in the "fullness of the gentiles". This is directly taken from Genesis 48:19 where Ephraim, Joseph’s Son, was promised to become a "fullness of the nations" by Jacob. The KJV, for example, has "multitude of nations". But please, look up the word for yourself.

Yes, the term can simply mean multitude as in many…it does not necessarily mean that the term “fullness” for all future uses in the scriptures rules out any non-Israelites.

The Olive Tree of Israel as found in Romans 11 (though it is mentioned in the scriptures long before this was written) is a study that would prolong this post longer than it already is, even if it was shortened. So I'll leave you with this (if anybody reads).

Romans 11 speaks of Gentile/non-Israelite inclusion. Let’s take a look at a few passages….

“ I ask then, did G’d reject his people? May it never be! For I also am an Yisra'eli, a descendant of Avraham, of the tribe of Binyamin.
G’d didn't reject his people, which he foreknew. Or don't you know what the Scripture says about Eliyahu? How he pleads with G’d against Yisra'el” - Romans: 11:1-2

Notice how the natural Olive branch above is spoken of. The term “Yisra’eli” is used…not Yehuda…The subject is “Yisra’el” not Judah. It speaks of the Israeli people in general.

“Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?” - Rom 11:12

Note how the above passage is contrasting the term “Gentile” to that of “Yisra’eli”….not Yehudah and Goyim….it is Yisra’eli and Goyim that is being contrasted.

“if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh, and may save some of them.” - Rom 11:14

His flesh? In chapter 11 he first describes himself as “Yisra’eli”…not “Yehudah”….He wishes to provoke the Israeli people to jealousy with a different people other than the Israeli people…that would have to be non-Israeli people…Gentiles!

Finally, notice that the book is addressed to the Romans…

“For I am not ashamed of the good news, for it is the power of G’d for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Yehudi first and also to the Greek.” Rom. 1:16

Does not "everyone who believes" include the Gentiles/non Israelis within the context of the use of the word "Greek" and Sha'ul's (Paul's) purpose and mission? The term “Yehudi/Jew” is often a term used generally to describe all of Israel descent and those of the nation of Israel. It does not always mean exclusively those from the Tribe of Judah. The term “Greek” in this passage comes from the Greek Strong's reference number G1672….

“a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek speaking person, especially a non-Jew: - Gentile, Greek.”

I mean, there is overwhelming evidence for this stuff in the NT alone apart from the Tanach

After taking a look at your proof texts I think that we can safely say that there is indeed not “overwhelming evidence for this stuff in the NT”.

(but of course, to understand it you need to be familiar with the Tanach or at least have it taught to you as it was taught and is still being taught to me).

Yes, I am familiar with the TeNaKh and that is one of the reasons why I so strongly object to “Two House Theology” as it has been taught to you. The following is what The TeNaKh teaches regarding those whom are non-Israeli…


“ For the assembly, there shall be one statute for you, and for the stranger who lives as a foreigner with you, a statute forever throughout your generations: as you are, so shall the foreigner be before YHVH. One and one ordinance shall be for you, and for the stranger who lives as a foreigner with you.”
- B’midbar (Num.) 15:15-16

"I, YHVH, have called you in righteousness, and will hold your hand, and will keep you, and make you a covenant for the people, as a light for the nations (Gentiles)” - Yesheyahu (Isa.) 42:6

“Thus says YHVH, Keep you justice, and do righteousness; for my yeshu`ah (salvation) is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who holds it fast; who keeps the Shabbat from profaning it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil.
Neither let the foreigner, who has joined himself to YHVH, speak, saying, YHVH will surely separate me from his people; neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
For thus says YHVH of the eunuchs who keep my Shabbatot, and choose the things that please me, and hold fast my covenant:
To them will I give in my house and within my walls a memorial and a name better than of sons and of daughters; I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Also the foreigners who join themselves to YHVH, to minister to him, and to love the name of YHVH, to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Shabbat from profaning it, and holds fast my covenant;
even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.
YHVH, who gathers the outcasts of Yisra'el, says, Yet will I gather others to him, besides his own who are gathered.
- YeshaYahu (Isa.) 56:1-8

It seems we will have to agree to disagree my brother. May you continue to grow in the keeping of our Father’s and have confidence in His promise of Salvation and inclusion with Greater Israel not because you cling to the possibility that you are one of the lost tribes…but, because the promises are already given to you through the TeNaKh regardless of your blood connection and because of Yeshua The Messiah being a light to you…a Gentile whom has been attracted to His light.

Shalom achi b’shem Yeshua HaMashiach,

Reuel

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note:

For those whom have not done so, please also take time to read the following article by First Fruits Of Zion:

ffoz.org/downloads/Ephraimite-encounter.pdf

[messimom]

May you continue to grow in the keeping of our Father’s and have confidence in His promise of Salvation and inclusion with Greater Israel not because you cling to the possibility that you are one of the lost tribes…but, because the promises are already given to you through the TeNaKh regardless of your blood connection and because of Yeshua The Messiah being a light to you…a Gentile whom has been attracted to His light.

Amen.

No one I know or have ever met that holds to the two house theology believes that YHVH doesn't include Gentiles. It is clear throughout scripture that Gentiles are welcome into the fold. However it is also clear that YHVH will again reunite the houses of Ephraim and Judah. The lost tribes will be found in one way or another. I believe that I am a gentile. No reason to believe that any part of me has Israeli descent whatsoever. And I do not promote that gentiles will be left out of YHVH's great plan for redemption.

As Reuel said, the promises are given to everyone regardless of bloodline for receiving the grace of Yeshua and all the more blessing for acknowledging the on our hearts. No one that I know will dispute that. In fact from everything I have read, a strict follower of traditional Messianic Judiasm (not the position of FFOZ) would be the only one to object to my acknowledgement of validity of in my life. How strange. Just doing my duty....makin' them good and jealous.

Shalom

Messimom

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

However it is also clear that YHVH will again reunite the houses of Ephraim and Judah. The lost tribes will be found in one way or another.

Amein achiot, we are in agreement.

In fact from everything I have read, a strict follower of traditional Messianic Judiasm (not the position of FFOZ) would be the only one to object to my acknowledgement of validity of in my life. How strange. Just doing my duty....makin' them good and jealous.

Keep up the good work sister

[Wavy_Wonder]

admin said:

Yes, but the restoration of Israel does not support many of the “Two House Theology” assumptions regarding the Gentiles.

Why not?

This is a good example of one of the teachings I object to in regards to “Two House theology”. It is the teaching that Yeshua only came for blood Israelites and not those of the Nations- Goyim – Gentiles. It was not Yeshua’s –whole- purpose to just rebuild the nation of Israel…it was also to be a light unto the Nations/non-Israelis.

He didn't come for nations. He came to be a light for them. There is a difference. Through the mission of the besorah, all have opportunity for the good blessings that come through Messiah.

It may be true, undoubtedly, that YHWH had his apostles or other disciples search and seek for some one who was not a biological Israelite.

But this does not mean he came for the non-Israelite nations as a whole.

This is another example of what I object to in many of the “Two House” teachings…much of your proof texts to support the “Two House” theories are not clear texts supporting the theory. The conclusions drawn from these texts are in many cases simply conjecture and personal opinion. Yeshua of course was to be a light to Israel, but the scriptures also say that he was to be a light unto the Nations/Gentiles…

“Having therefore obtained the help that is from G’d, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moshe said would happen, how the Messiah must suffer, and how, by the resurrection of the dead, he would be first to proclaim light both to these people and to the Gentiles."
- Acts 26:22-23

I believe this is a two-house reference. Just because we see "nations" does not mean "non-Israelites". Non-Jews perhaps.

“ Therefore, behold, the days come, says YHVH, that it shall no more be said, As YHVH lives, who brought up the children of Yisra'el out of the land of Egypt; but, As YHVH lives, who brought up the children of Yisra'el from the land of the north, and from all the countries where he had driven them. I will bring them again into their land that I gave to their fathers. Behold, I will send for many fishermen, says YHVH, and they shall fish them up; and afterward I will send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the clefts of the rocks.”
– Yermiyahu (Jer.) 16:14-16

Again, you have to infer what you are looking for from this passage, as it does not directly say what you are so boldly asserting.

No, you don't. First we have to define what I'm saying first and then see if I'm just superimposing things into the context. If we look start at verse 9 and continue to look at other verses like 14 & 15, we will clearly see the context of this passage: YHWH making a great exodus; removing the house of Israel out of the lands of the earth.

Again, there is no direct reference to what you are saying in Matt.5. to what you say is so clear.

In the hint and mystery levels of understanding, it makes perfect sense. YHWH says that it will be said to them in the land that where it was formerly said to them "you are not my people", that it would be said "you are the children of Elohim".

Yeshua says this in Matthew 5:9. He also gives reference to the "no mercy" curse as it is outlined in Hosea 1.

Again, nothing in this passage directly supporting what you are claiming. The sheep are no doubt part of greater Israel, but they are also all those whom hear his voice including those of the nations…not of Israeli descent. Yeshua says,

“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice. They will become one flock with one shepherd.” - Yochanan (John) 10:16

In the above passage he was talking to the people of Israel. The people “not of this fold” would be non-Israelites…Gentiles whom would later come and follow Him… and we see that Sha’ul (Paul) later was the one Yeshua sent to begin much of this work. Of course I know that “Two House” theology contends that Sha’ul (Paul) was not really sent to those of the nations (Gentiles/non-Israelites), but it asserts that they were really just lost dispersed Israelites. I believe that “lost Israelites” would naturally be part of the job, but was not the primary function of Rav Sha’ul.

This is wrong for two reasons: he is clearly referring to Ezekiel 34. He calls himself that "one shepherd" as in Ezekiel.

To say he is not referring to that passage would be silly. And if we go back and read that passage, it is so clearly about the shepherds of Jewish Israel and their wickedness and laziness for not bringing again "that which was driven away" (Ephraim Israel).

Yeshua did not change the context of that passage.

Secondly, he can't have "sheep" that are the nations. The nations don't know him. His sheep that are lost (which he came to find and restore) can't be the nations by logic and lack of scriptural evidence. The "gentiles" are not lost, and they can't be sheep because they do not know him (although through him they can become Yisraelite sheep).

As far as Paul, please read Acts 9:15 and compare with Acts 28:20.

The above passage deals with gathering all of Israel…not just the lost ten tribes. Also, are you suggesting that the prophecies about Mashiach benYosef as found in Yeshayahu (Isai.) 53 could have gone unfulfilled?

I know it is not just the ten tribes of Ephraim Israel. Isaiah 11:12 clearly shows us that much of Judah is out there with the house of Israel.

And no, I am not saying it could have gone unfulfilled. But I do believe that was the reason it was written because Judah's rejection of Messiah (as a whole) would delay the restoration.

Had Judah not done this, it is possible Isaiah 53 would not have been written. But then again, now that I think of it, it would have to be. It is the only way the two-houses can reunite.

Again, this is your conjecture from the above passage, as it does not directly say that it deals with the lost tribes of Israel…Yeshua was speaking of the house of HaSatan when referring to a house divided…take a look.

Again, more hint understanding. And what was the scattering he referenced too? Just random nonsense he decided to say?

Again, you are assuming that these statements did not have non-Israelites in mind.

Of course he did.

No, the passage does not say Judah and Ephrayim, it says Jew (Israeli descent) and Gentile (non-Israeli descent). The term “far off” has more than one application than just the Ten lost tribes.

This is also your opinion that the term "Jew" always applies to all Israel and that "gentile" means "non-Israeli". The evidence is just overwhelming.

And yes, "far off" can have a variety of applications, but according to the nature of Yeshua's true mission, it is consistent. It's not just some off the wall, crazy thing.

I think you are giving it less credit than it deserves.

You are reading your theology into it as the texts do not directly say what you would like them to.

This is your opinion.

Two House theology would have most of the promises given to those of non-Israeli descent (as we see them in the writings of the Brit Chadashah/New Cov.) stripped from them. This is one of my greatest objections to Two House theology.

Well, this is not true. I don't see how this is indicated anywhere in what I said.

Yes, the term can simply mean multitude as in many…it does not necessarily mean that the term “fullness” for all future uses in the scriptures rules out any non-Israelites.

I think you missed the point, and again, the term "melo" is never anywhere else translated as "multitude". Ever. But again, it would not matter. A multitude of "many" of nations would still mean a larger percentage of the world at the very least would be of Ephraim's seed. They would be many. So many that they would be found in all nations.

Romans 11 speaks of Gentile/non-Israelite inclusion. Let’s take a look at a few passages….

Indeed. Not predominantly, however, but by principle.

Notice how the natural Olive branch above is spoken of. The term “Yisra’eli” is used…not Yehuda…The subject is “Yisra’el” not Judah. It speaks of the Israeli people in general.

Yes, the Olive Tree is made up of both houses (Jeremiah 11:16-17). But this has nothing to do with contrasting all Israel as a whole with the gentiles in terms of "non-Israelites".

As a matter of fact, Hosea 14:5-8 reveals that Ephraim Israel will be included back into their own olive tree. The wild olive tree are all those Israelite formerly who's branches are broken. See also Isaiah 17:6 and 24:13.

It is not some different type tree that represents those in contrast to who is considered an "Israelite" (although, as I have said, they can be included). If it were some different tree, it would violate the law of mixture.

Paul also identifies the Romans as those in Hosea 1. He quotes Hosea that those who YHWH called Lo-Ami, are now YHWH's people (Romans 9:24-26).

If we keep scripture consistent and assume Paul is not misapplying it, those who were Lo-Ami, or "not my people" are Ephraim Israel, the tribes of the north, the children of Israel who are as the sand of the sea, filling the nations.

Note how the above passage is contrasting the term “Gentile” to that of “Yisra’eli”….not Yehudah and Goyim….it is Yisra’eli and Goyim that is being contrasted.

But this makes little difference. In context, it still speaks of problems with Jewish Israel and faith based on context.

His flesh? In chapter 11 he first describes himself as “Yisra’eli”…not “Yehudah”….He wishes to provoke the Israeli people to jealousy with a different people other than the Israeli people…that would have to be non-Israeli people…Gentiles!

Again, this is not a rebuttal. Jews are still Israelites. His flesh are those of Judah, which is why he specifies that he from the tribe of Benjamin (considered part of the house of Judah).

Finally, notice that the book is addressed to the Romans…

“For I am not ashamed of the good news, for it is the power of G’d for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Yehudi first and also to the Greek.” Rom. 1:16

Two-house reference. See John 7:35 to see who the "Greeks" are. Also, 1 Maccabees 12 tells us that some Greeks of that day (who were not Jews) were known to be Israelites.

If "Greek" was just another term for "gentile" or "non-Israelite", he would not have had to distinguish it from "Barbarians" or "foreigners/non-Greeks" in verse 14.

Does not "everyone who believes" include the Gentiles/non Israelis within the context of the use of the word "Greek" and Sha'ul's (Paul's) purpose and mission? The term “Yehudi/Jew” is often a term used generally to describe all of Israel descent and those of the nation of Israel. It does not always mean exclusively those from the Tribe of Judah. The term “Greek” in this passage comes from the Greek Strong's reference number G1672….

“a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek speaking person, especially a non-Jew: - Gentile, Greek.”

And again, at the same time, "Jew" does not always refer to all Israel.

Once again, see John 7:35.

After taking a look at your proof texts I think that we can safely say that there is indeed not “overwhelming evidence for this stuff in the NT”.

I disagree entirely and I do not think (no offense however) that you have done the job of actually disproving it in any drastic, irrefutable way.

And again, I didn't even put half of what I could!!

“ For the assembly, there shall be one statute for you, and for the stranger who lives as a foreigner with you, a statute forever throughout your generations: as you are, so shall the foreigner be before YHVH. One and one ordinance shall be for you, and for the stranger who lives as a foreigner with you.”
- B’midbar (Num.) 15:15-16

I understand this. All are considered Israel (believers).

"I, YHVH, have called you in righteousness, and will hold your hand, and will keep you, and make you a covenant for the people, as a light for the nations (Gentiles)” - Yesheyahu (Isa.) 42:6

Very possibly a two-house reference since Ephraim Israel was and is still becoming the "fulness of the nations/gentiles".

“Thus says YHVH, Keep you justice, and do righteousness; for my yeshu`ah (salvation) is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who holds it fast; who keeps the Shabbat from profaning it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil.
Neither let the foreigner, who has joined himself to YHVH, speak, saying, YHVH will surely separate me from his people; neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
For thus says YHVH of the eunuchs who keep my Shabbatot, and choose the things that please me, and hold fast my covenant:
To them will I give in my house and within my walls a memorial and a name better than of sons and of daughters; I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Also the foreigners who join themselves to YHVH, to minister to him, and to love the name of YHVH, to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Shabbat from profaning it, and holds fast my covenant;
even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.
YHVH, who gathers the outcasts of Yisra'el, says, Yet will I gather others to him, besides his own who are gathered.
- YeshaYahu (Isa.) 56:1-8

Again, this is not some new thing I have never read before. I actually use this quite frequently to prove to those who want to consider themselves as "gentiles" as a separate entity from Israel that that is rebuked by YHWH. And once again, Ephraim is becoming a fulness of the nations.

It seems we will have to agree to disagree my brother. May you continue to grow in the keeping of our Father’s and have confidence in His promise of Salvation and inclusion with Greater Israel not because you cling to the possibility that you are one of the lost tribes…but, because the promises are already given to you through the TeNaKh regardless of your blood connection and because of Yeshua The Messiah being a light to you…a Gentile whom has been attracted to His light.

Shalom achi b’shem Yeshua HaMashiach,

Reuel

Yes, it does seem we'll have to agree to disagree. Seems we will get nowhere with this. But anyway,

peace/love.

[Wavy_Wonder]

No one I know or have ever met that holds to the two house theology believes that YHVH doesn't include Gentiles.

If you are referring to me, please realize that I never stated this.

It is clear throughout scripture that Gentiles are welcome into the fold. However it is also clear that YHVH will again reunite the houses of Ephraim and Judah. The lost tribes will be found in one way or another.

So, now, for some reason, that theology is pointless and it does not matter descent, but some time in the future it becomes suddenly important? Is this what you are saying?

Reuel obviously agrees that they will be found and reunited with Judah. But I ask you both the same thing he asked me: what is at stake then?

Is it wrong to believe in it now, but ok to assume it is held off until the future when it suddenly becomes important?

I think, no offense, that this is faulty logic.

And I do not promote that gentiles will be left out of YHVH's great plan for redemption.

Again, if this is in reference to me, I never stated this. Sorry if I'm just imagining things...

I get on the defensive to much.

[messimom]

I said:

No one I know or have ever met that holds to the two house theology believes that YHVH doesn't include Gentiles.

wavy_wonder said:

If you are referring to me, please realize that I never stated this.

Sorry for the confusion, I was directing that comment to Reuel at the time. What I meant by that was that me, personally, I, speaking only for myself, have not yet met a two-house (or Ephraimite) believer that feels that ONLY the lost tribes and Judah are being gathered. I believe that probably the majority of those turning toward are from the lost tribes, but there are also gentiles, 100%, who are turning to YHVH, just as when the 10 Commandments were given. There have always been and always will be "strangers in the midst" who will shemar along with all of Y'Israel.

I said:

It is clear throughout scripture that Gentiles are welcome into the fold. However it is also clear that YHVH will again reunite the houses of Ephraim and Judah. The lost tribes will be found in one way or another.

Wavy_Wonder said:

So, now, for some reason, that theology is pointless and it does not matter descent, but some time in the future it becomes suddenly important? Is this what you are saying?

Again, originally addressing Reuel, but hey, you were on a roll.

And as a two-house theology subscriber, as stated above, I think lineage is important as far as reunification of the two houses and biblical interpretation of prophetic verses is concerned.

Wavy_Wonder said:

Reuel obviously agrees that they will be found and reunited with Judah. But I ask you both the same thing he asked me: what is at stake then?

I'm not sure I understand your question. Sorry.

I said:

And I do not promote that gentiles will be left out of YHVH's great plan for redemption.

Wavy_Wonder said:

Again, if this is in reference to me, I never stated this. Sorry if I'm just imagining things...

Nope, I said it and you can quote me.

Just some misunderstanding I think. Welcome to the board Wavy!!

Shabbat Shalom

Messimom

[Rohanmdn]

Shalom Reuel,

I thought this might be interesting for all to read. It is part 3 of an article( Countdown to Redemption) by Rabbi Richman ( one of the 71 Rabbi's in the newly formed Sanhedrin). Part 3 of his article speaks of the Orthodox view of the "two sticks" of Ezekiel.

I would like to hear everyones opinions and comments on the Orthodox view he communicates, and how it relates to two house theology. How do they agree and differ?

Rohan

www.lttn.org/R3_Article5_CountdownToRedemption.htm

[messimom]

This comes from the article Rohan linked to:

The verse we see above was declared by the prophet Isaiah concerning the special relationship between the two Messiahs - the initial Messiah, ben Yosef, and the final Messiah, Mashiach ben David.

The simple meaning of this verse is that each figure has a specific role to play, and each one will perform his task without jealousy. This is also one meaning of the verse, “Son of man, take a stick, and write upon it, ‘For Judah, and the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick, and write upon it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and all the house of Israel, his companions.’ Join them together into one stick, so that they are one in your hand” (Ez. 37:16-17).

According to tradition, this initial Messiah will lead the fight against the hostile forces of Gog and Magog, and he will be killed in battle. He will be mourned by all Israel, as it is written: “They shall look to Me because they have thrust him through, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his firstborn son” (Zech. 12:10).

I don't think that makes much sense at all, especially when lower in the article it says that these verses are used to support the "two-house theory". (the joining sticks one in particular)

And as far as the two messiahs, then where does Yeshua fit into this? It sounds as if it says both messiahs will come at the end of age in Armageddon.

Messimom

[Rohanmdn]

Messimom wrote:

>>I don't think that makes much sense at all, especially when lower in the article it says that these verses are used to support the "two-house theory". (the joining sticks one in particular)<<

I'm scratching my head too!

>>And as far as the two messiahs, then where does Yeshua fit into this? It sounds as if it says both messiahs will come at the end of age in Armageddon.<<

The two Messiahs ( Messiah Ben Yoseph and Messiah Ben David) do indeed appear in this article as both present at the end times. One who fights the war of Gog and Magog. And the other to establish the Kingdom. But how that fits in to the Ezekiel passage, I do not understand either.

But I think the view this Rabbi espouses is that Messiah will indeed gather the exiles of Israel ( who have lost their identity in the nations) back to the Land.

The question I then have is, if the Orthodox view of Messiah is one of a man like David, how will he have the ability to Know who belongs to the Nation of Israel?
My one guess would be that perhaps when the Messiah is ushered in He will have the gift of prophecy and will know.

Anyway, I thought it interesting that the Orthodox seem to share the view that there are indeed lost tribes among the nations who have lost their identity, and for all practical and religious purposes have not practiced or know about their faith and have totally assimilated into the nations.

Of course we know that the two messiahs are one and the same ( Yeshua) and that he has two comings, one as suffering servant, the other as victorious king.

They have Messiah Ben Yoseph as suffering servant dying in the war of Gog and Magog, and Messiah Ben David being victorious and establishing the kingdom.

I don't wish to sidetrack the thread by discussing the eschatology implications of what that interpretation creates. But, I'll restrain myself.

If anyone has anymore information concerning the Orthodox view of the two house theory, please let me know. I find it very intriguing.

[Deafeye]

The Bible defines the believers of the Messiah as the redeemed House of Jacob, which includes physical descendants of Jacob and the aliens, sojourners, those adopted, and those grafted in to the family.


I've been told by my father that somewhere along our line we have lineage to Jews... but we cannot really pull up a family tree to verify this. I dont care either way... I might be a gentile, I might be a Jew. Im saved anyway, and Im going to enter into the Kingdom. Wether Im an alien, sojourner, adopted or a physical decendant. What does it matter now?


I'll just ask Yeshua when He gets here...

"The dawn of the day is when you can't tell the difference between a Jew and a Gentile."

Don't forget that either...


~Shalom~
Deafeye

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I've been told by my father that somewhere along our line we have lineage to Jews... but we cannot really pull up a family tree to verify this. I dont care either way... I might be a gentile, I might be a Jew.

You may not have to wait that long. You can go to www.familytreedna.com and send for a DNA kit and they will be able to tell you if you have any Jewish ethnicity in you. I knew that I was Jewish on my mom's side (Ashkenazic), but wanted to test for my Dad's side as well. We always new that on his side we were descendents from those of Ireland. But, I found that the surname, "Dillon" was of possible Ashkenazic descent. So, one of the reasons I got the DNA test was to verify this.

Well, I got the DNA test and it showed on my Dad's side I am partly descended from Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jewery...One thing that blew me away was that the DNA test also showed that I also have Ashekanazic-Levite ethnicity as part of my DNA. Is it possible that genetic testing will partially help to fulfill the prophecy in Yechezk'el - Ezek. in the end of days?

Very interesting...

[number2]

messimom said:

Excerpt from FFOZ article "Encounters with an Ephraimite" Page 13:

Eschatology

Though we have a great deal in common with the Two-House movement, we do have several differing viewpoints with the entire theology. FFOZ is able to affirm several of the basic tenants of general Two-House teaching. We affirm the message of the prophets. That is to say, we believe that there will be a day when all the dispersed of Israel will be returned and restored. The message of the prophets is unanimous in this regard.

The Two-House message contains a prophetic truth that is yet to occur. There are ten lost tribes, whether they are lost by assimilation into the nations or into Judea–they are lost. We do not know who they are; we do not know where they are or what they are, but we do know that at some point in the future they will be identified and re-established. All the tribes will be brought home, and in the Messianic era, tribal differentiation reemerges. However, we do not suppose to know the means or mechanism by which this will be accomplished and are not willing to suggest one theory over another. It is a matter of eschatology, and in that regard, it is similar to the arguments over pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation and post-tribulation advent. Everyone has a theory, but no one will really know for certain until Messiah comes.

A good article written with an open mind. Thank you for the viewpoint. First Fruits of Zion is a good organization with a lot of good material.

Messimom

I know this is a bit late but I thought I would point out that Genesis 48 and 49 is rather specific on what would happen to the tribes of Israel in the end times.

According to the prophecies they were to become nations. Which would then mean Judah would reappear as today's Israel and 11 other Gentile nations would be the other tribes.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I know this is a bit late but I thought I would point out that Genesis 48 and 49 is rather specific on what would happen to the tribes of Israel in the end times.

According to the prophecies they were to become nations. Which would then mean Judah would reappear as today's Israel and 11 other Gentile nations would be the other tribes.

Shalom number2,

I think this is wishful thinking as I don't believe the text is "rather specific" that the "other Gentile nations would be the other tribes". Where does it specifically say this?...I think you have to read these assumptions into the text. So, what about those whom call themselves "Jews"...but are not of the tribe of Yehudah?....What if they are of the tribe of Levi (and many are)?...doesn't that kindof put a kink in the theory that all "Jews" are "Judah"? And, if they are not all Judah (a fact) than isn't it possible that many more that call themselves Jews could be from various other tribes and many cross mixed from various tribes? There are usually motivations for believing the things you have stated...What is at stake for you?

Shalom,

Reuel

[number2]

admin said:

I know this is a bit late but I thought I would point out that Genesis 48 and 49 is rather specific on what would happen to the tribes of Israel in the end times.

According to the prophecies they were to become nations. Which would then mean Judah would reappear as today's Israel and 11 other Gentile nations would be the other tribes.

Shalom number2,

I think this is wishful thinking as I don't believe the text is "rather specific" that the "other Gentile nations would be the other tribes". Where does it specifically say this?...I think you have to read these assumptions into the text. So, what about those whom call themselves "Jews"...but are not of the tribe of Yehudah?....What if they are of the tribe of Levi (and many are)?...doesn't that kindof put a kink in the theory that all "Jews" are "Judah"? And, if they are not all Judah (a fact) than isn't it possible that many more that call themselves Jews could be from various other tribes and many cross mixed from various tribes? There are usually motivations for believing the things you have stated...What is at stake for you?

Shalom,

Reuel

Well, I believe these prophecies defend themselves. Genesis 49-1 specifically says it's a end time prophecy. And Joseph is mentioned in Genesis 49 as well making Genesis 48 an end time prophecy as well. Also I did make a slight error. Its far more nations than 12. In 48-19 Ephraim is supposed to become a multitude of nations.

Also remember Genesis 17-5 and 6.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

And Genesis 28-14 God's promise to Jacob.
14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

So all things considered there is quite a few genetic Israelites in the world mixed into the Gentiles.

And they would have to be Gentile nations.

Now as far as people in Israel today that are not of Judah they are probably of another tribe. Remember Ezekial 37.

15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying'
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.




What is at stake for you?

Just the truth.