The Temple, and The Priesthood

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I have been holding off on this conversation because it is one that requires advanced study, and understanding. This subject is beginning to be addressed here on the forum, so I have opened up this thread. Because this is a discussion that tends to give way to many strong emotions, I will be keeping a close eye on everyone to maintain a loving, patient, and respectable dialogue (me too ). I also want to stress that what I have presented are my beliefs, and they do not necessarily represent any one group in Messianic Judaism as there are definitely varying views in regards to this subject found in Messianic Judaism. Some of the different views found in Messianic Judaism in regards to this issue are as follows:

1. is good, and for today, and the future except the Temple, priesthood, and any of it's offerings which where all done away with at Yeshua's coming (most of this comes from their previous theological background).

2. is good, and for today, and the future, The Temple will be rebuilt, the priesthood will operate, and only the sin sacrifices have been done away with in Yeshua The Messiah.

3. is good, and for today, and the future, The Temple will be rebuilt, the priesthood will operate, all types of Temple services, and sacrifices will be reinstated, and this does not conflict with Yeshua HaMashiach (The Messiah), His Priesthood, or His sacrifice. They will coincide in harmony during the coming reign of Messiah.

My view:

I will start off by stating that The Temple and it's Priesthood will be rebuilt, that it will be God's will, and it will not compete with Yeshua's sacrifice, or Priesthood...and it never did.

Remember, be nice.

Reuel

[Frank T. Clark]

I think it would be very helpful Reuel if you were to give the scriptural basis for your statements. It would also be helpful to give some type of chronological framework. For example, I assume you are referring to before the thousand years of the earth's rest while the children of Israel are with the Lamb in heaven which ends with the coming of the New Jerusalem to earth to be placed on the site of current Jerusalem.

Please clarify your understanding with more details. I am eager to learn, discuss, and share.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I think it would be very helpful Reuel if you were to give the scriptural basis for your statements.

Yes, I will. My first statement was just the intro. I was just waiting for any questions, or objections. I will get a little more specific in a few moments.

Shalom,

Reuel

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

The future Temple as described in Ezekiel 41 has not been built. Therefore, it will be built in the future, as prophesied. Not only will the Ezekiel Temple be built, but when we read about it in the book of Ezekiel, we see that it is indeed the good and perfect will of God. No where does it say that the holy ones of YHVH will be up in heaven watching all of this. We will experience it. This Temple will be operating during Messiah's reign on Earth as it literally describes the "Prince" being there, and He is acting as a King-Priest. We also see this King-Priest operating in harmony with the Levitical priesthood which will again be operating. The Levitical Priesthood is an everlasting priesthood which did not, and will not compete with Yeshua's sacrifice, or priesthood...and it cannot be broken.

Behold the future...

"In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, YHVH our righteousness. For thus saith YHVH; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. And the word of YHVH came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith YHVH; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me."
- Jeremiah 33:16-22

From this we can see that the Davidic King (Yeshua) will operate in harmony with the Levitical Priesthood. If God breaks this covenant, than He can break the Brit Chadashah (New Covenant) with us. Anything we read in the book of Hebrews must be interpreted through the foundation (TeNaKh). That is all for now.

Shalom,

Reuel

[Yochanah]

We must, at all times let Scripture interpret itself.
The temple in Ezekiel's vision (i.e. being symbolic) can be more readily understood and therefore put in prospective when one studies the likewise symbolic account of Daniel.
"And He shall confirm the covenant with many for ONE WEEK" [Daniel 9:27] After His baptism Yeshua went to Galilee, "preaching the gospel of the kingdom of Elohim, and saying, The time is fulfilled." [MARK 1:14, 15.] What time was fulfilled?
The "week" used here is the last one of the "seventy weeks" prophecy [Daniel 9:24-27]. It is the last seven years of the period given especially to the Jews. During this time, from A. D. 27 to A. D. 34, Yeshua, first in person, and then by his disciples, preached the Good News invitation especially to the Jews although others, such as the woman at the well and the Cannanite woman, were also allowed free access to the truth.
As the apostles went out with the "glad tidings of the kingdom", our Saviour's instruction was, "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not; but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." [MATT. 10:5, 6.] This was for a period of time but not forever.
"And in the midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."Dan. 9:27 In A. D. 31, three and a half years after His baptism, our Righteous Savior was crucified. With the ULTIMATE AND FINAL Sacrifice offered upon Calvary, the system of blood offerings which for four thousand years had pointed forward to the Lamb of Yah ENDED. Type had met antitype, and all the "LETTING OF BLOOD" sacrifices and oblations (offerings of wheat, oil, showbread, etc.) of the ceremonial system were to cease. They had served their purpose to point to the Innocent Lamb of Yah, which took on our sins though He knew no sin.
This was evident by the Temple curtain being torn in two by unseen hands, " And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;" Matthew 27:51
Applying the day for a year principle, of 2 Peter 3:8, the seventy weeks, or 490 years, especially allotted to the Jews, ENDED, as we have seen, in A. D. 34. At that time, through the action of the Jewish Sanhedrim, the nation SEALED ITS REJECTION of the gospel, by the martyrdom of Stephen [Acts 7:59-8:1] and the persecution of the followers of haMachiach. Then the message of salvation, was no longer restricted to the chosen people, but was given to the world. The disciples, forced by persecution to flee from Jerusalem [Acts 4:16; 8:1], "went everywhere preaching the Word." "Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached haMachiach unto them." [ACTS 8:4, 5; 22:21.] Peter, by divine guidance, reveled the gospel to the centurion of Cesarea, the Elohim-fearing Cornelius. And the energetic Paul, with renewed faith in the Messiah, was commissioned to carry the glad tidings "far hence unto the Gentiles." [ACTS 8:4, 5; 22 :21.]
The temple of Ezeliel is symbolic of the temple in heaven. " Christ's church on earth is to resemble heaven, a temple built after the pattern of things shown in the holy mount. Man must give up his ideas, his plans, and devices, and let God work out His original intentions. The great Designer must not be impeded in His work by human wisdom. His work and purpose have not been understood. Through the miscalculations of man, the church today is so misshapen that it can not be accepted by the great Builder. Human counsel has been so abundant, that individual experience is rare. Men are placed where God should be.God's plans are turned aside, and men's measures brought in to fashion and mould. But the great and perfect Designer pronounces the work imperfect. The temple that He is building after the pattern of things in the heavens must have the exact proportions assigned it by the Architect, whose pattern is without a flaw. He has brought the golden measuring rod from heaven, and every worker is employed only as he works under His superintendence, and according to His plans." {EW, 1908}
From this we can, if we are willing to except His way instead of our own concepts, that He has a far more beautiful plan than what we try to limit Him to.
Shalom and Ahavah,
Yochanah

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

The temple in Ezekiel's vision (i.e. being symbolic) can be more readily understood and therefore put in prospective when one studies the likewise symbolic account of Daniel.

Nothing in the book of Ezekiel suggests this. This one cannot just be spiritualized away.

Type had met antitype, and all the "LETTING OF BLOOD" sacrifices and oblations (offerings of wheat, oil, showbread, etc.) of the ceremonial system were to cease. They had served their purpose to point to the Innocent Lamb of Yah, which took on our sins though He knew no sin.
This was evident by the Temple curtain being torn in two by unseen hands, " And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;" Matthew 27:51

This is simply conjecture, and is not as you say allowing scripture to interpret itself. The rent veil did not imply the doing away of parts of the (Matthew 5:16-19) as many seem to imply. What it did signify was a new way to access God through the new addition of a covenant. This was an addition, or an amendment (if you will)...it did not replace...it added better promises. Again, the Levitical Priesthood is an everlasting priesthood which did not, and will not compete with Yeshua's sacrifice, or priesthood...and it cannot be broken. Keep in mind that the following prophecy is future....

"In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, YHVH our righteousness. For thus saith YHVH; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. And the word of YHVH came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith YHVH; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me."
- Jeremiah 33:16-22

Again, from this we can see that the Davidic King (Yeshua) will operate in harmony with the Levitical Priesthood. If God breaks this covenant, than He can break the Brit HaDashah (New Covenant) with us. Anything we read in the book of Hebrews must be interpreted through the foundation (TeNaKh). So, we can see there are a number of problems with what you are saying of which would make God a liar, a covenant breaker, and would make Yeshua (a liar, and a hypocrite). For He said the following...

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
- Matthew 5:17-19

A few things to notice in the above passage is that the covenant with Levi would be included in "one jot or one tittle". Not only that, but the language "Till heaven and earth pass" is very similar to what we saw in Jeremiah 33:16-22...

"If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers."

With both Yeshua's statement, and the one we find above...all we have to do is walk outside, and look at the shining sun to find the truth. Because both Heaven and Earth have not passed away, and day, and night continue in there season, we can safely conclude any talk of the covenant with Levi being done away with is simply false.

Applying the day for a year principle, of 2 Peter 3:8, the seventy weeks, or 490 years, especially allotted to the Jews, ENDED, as we have seen, in A. D. 34. At that time, through the action of the Jewish Sanhedrim, the nation SEALED ITS REJECTION of the gospel, by the martyrdom of Stephen [Acts 7:59-8:1] and the persecution of the followers of haMachiach.

In regards to the Nation sealing it's rejection of the gospel...this is also conjecture. With prophecy (especially SDA prophecy) we need to be careful because in many cases prophecy is not clearly revealed until it actually happens.

From this we can, if we are willing to except His way instead of our own concepts, that He has a far more beautiful plan than what we try to limit Him to.

Yes, and this would include accepting His plain words found in scripture, and not spirtualizing passages away that don't seem to fit with our own understanding.

Well, it has been a lively discussion thusfar .

Shabbat shalom,

Reuel

[Yochanah]

Good Morning after a wonderfully blessed Shabbat. To continue our discussion I wrote: The temple in Ezekiel's vision (i.e. being symbolic) can be more readily understood and therefore put in prospective when one studies the likewise symbolic account of Daniel.

And you, brother Reuel, answered back: Nothing in the book of Ezekiel suggests this. This one cannot just be spirtualized away.

I must respectfully disagree with you here because this text in Ezekiel is a vision therefore prophetic and symbolic. Just as the books of Daniel and Revelation are. Therefore they are spiritual and require spiritual discernment. To interprete the visions correctly they must be applies to the proper time in history. To do this we must study our history as well. Only through diligent study and total reliance on the Set-apart Spirit will give us clear and correct insight to the meaning of these prophetic books.

I wrote: Type had met antitype, and all the "LETTING OF BLOOD" sacrifices and oblations... of the ceremonial system were to cease. They had served their purpose to point to the Innocent Lamb of Yah...
This was evident by the Temple curtain being torn in two by unseen hands...Matthew 27:51

You answered:This is simply conjecture, and is not as you say allowing scripture to interpret itself. The rent veil did not imply the doing away of parts of the .

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17 (KJV)
The word "fulfil" according to the KJV Strong's Concordance means to SATISFY.
What does one think the sacrifices of innocent little lambs, sheep, doves and bulls mean? This system was given to point to the coming Messiah that would do in reality what those symbolic gestures represented. With His death those symbolic gestures were "fulfilled", satisfied.
To understand this we must turn to Daniel and the vision of the 2300 days and 70 weeks prophecy.
In prophecy we understand one day represents one year, (see Ezekiel 4:6, Numbers 14:34).
In Daniel's vision he was told, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to FINISH the transgression, AND TO MAKE AN END OF SINS, AND TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, AND TO ANOINT THE MOST HOLY." Daniel 9:24 (KJV)
This vision was looking forward to the first coming of the Messiah. The "seventy weeks" which equal 490 days were literal years. The word "determined" was originally from the word meaning TO CUT OFF. The seventy weeks, or 490 literal years, are cut off from the longer period of the overall 2300 year period given in Daniel 8:14 and interpreted in Dan. 9:20-27. Therefore both time periods must begin together. They commence when Artaxerxes of Persia, in the seventh year of his reign, gave the decree for the building and restoration of Jerusalem. (See Dan. 9:25; Ezra 7:7).
The seventy weeks are subdivided into three divisions: 7 weeks, 62 weeks and 1 week. (See Dan. 9:25-27, i.e. 7+62+1 =70). Beginning in the autumn of 457 B.C., the first division of 7 weeks or 49 literal years, extended to 408 B.C., when, recorded in history, the work of building and restoration was completed. The 7 weeks plus 62 weeks, or total of 69 weeks, amounting to 483 literal years, were to reach to "Messiah the Prince". This period extends to the autumn of A.D. 27, when haMachiach was baptized in the Jordan at the commencement of His public ministry and was anointed with the Set-apart Spirit. This is where the word "Christ" comes from meaning the same as "Messiah" i.e., "the Anointed One".
The remaining week of the seventy reaches to A.D. 34, when Stephen was stoned and the gospel was sent to the Gentiles. In the MIDST of the last or seventieth WEEK, that is from 27 to 34 A.D., at Passover in the spring of A.D. 32 (3 1/2 years from the autumn of A.D. 27) the Messiah was "cut off" or crucified.
Subtracting the 70 weeks, or 490 literal years, from the 2300 years, of Dan. 9:20-27, leaves a period of 1,810, plus the 7 years of our Blessed Redeemer's public ministry, which brings us to A.D. 1844. when the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary began.
This, according to the type as given in the symbolic rites and ceremonies of the earthly sanctuary, involves a work of judgement, (see Matthew 22:11-14).
In 1844 began the Investigative Judgement, which is preparatory to haMachiach's second coming, (see Luke 20:34-36; Rev. 22:10-12).
To reenact that which was fulfilled by the Ultimate Sacrifice of our Beloved Savior would be heresy at best and blasphemy if acted out. To begin blood sacrifices again would be to say haMachiach died in vain.

[Yochanah]

Con't.
You wrote:
Again, the Levitical Priesthood is an everlasting priesthood which did not, and will not compete with Yeshua's sacrifice, or priesthood...and it cannot be broken. Keep in mind that the following prophecy is future....

I would like to add to this, again, that WE, the followers of Yeshua who keep the commands of Yah, blessed be His name, are the, "...chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light: 1 Peter 2:9
Ahavah and Shalom,
Yochanah

[Yochanah]

P.S. I wanted to make mention that in my above posts the little blue Smiley faces with question marks appear in place of the letter "d" on two occassion. This is not by me. I tried to erase them when they showed up but they would not go away.

Reuel, dear brother, you wrote: "A few things to notice in the above passage is that the covenant with Levi would be included in "one jot or one tittle". Not only that but, the language "Till heaven and earth pass" is very similar to what we saw in Jeremiah 33:16-22...

"If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers."

But I , my dear brother, contend that they are not similar. He confirms His law (Matt. 5:18) in the first text and is making a rethorical statement in the second. They (Israel of the flesh) did, and we do, break His covenant and thereby He is free to break covenant with us if He has a mind to. But it helps to understand just what that covenant is...
"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be My people. Jeremiah 31:33

This covenant remains in force through His "chosen few" who keep the commandments of Elohim and have the faith of Yeshua haMachiach, Rev. 14:12
"And what agreement hath the temple of Elohim with idols? for ye are the temple of the living Elohim; as Elohim hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their Elohim, and they shall be My people. 2 Cor. 6:16

Who was He talking to and what did He mean when Yeshua said, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see Me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is He that cometh in THE Name of YHWH." Luke 13:35?

He was addressing Jerusalem and He was speaking of the time of the end when His true name (Ps. 68:4) would be restored (Acts 3:21) and they would see Him, "Behold, He cometh with clouds; and EVERY eye shall see Him, AND THEY ALSO WHICH PIERCED HIM: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen." (Rev. 1:7) at His Second Coming.

Reuel, we are living in a spriitual time that is to say, we (true believers, Rev. 14:12) are the priesthood, (1 Peter 2:9) and the covenant remains intact with us if we walk with Him (Jer. 31:33) Our bodies are His holy temple (2 Cor. 6:16) until His return after the thousand years (Rev. 20:6) when we will be judging the angels (Matt. 22:30, Luke 30:36' 1 Peter 1:12, Jude 1:6 and 1Corinthians 6:3) and learning why many we knew are not in New Jerusalem with us (Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 13:25; 1 Cor. 6:9 and Rev. 22:11).
Then after the thousand years Satan will be let go, that is that during the thousand years: We will be with our Beloved Savior going over the records to confirm in our own minds the rightness of the judgements of Yah, blessed be His name. Meanwhile Satan and his fallen angels will be bound on an empty earth with no one to torment but each other because the saints are in heaven with Messiah and the wicked are dead (and the dead know nothing, Eccl. 9:5). SO FOR 1000 YEAR SATAN IS BOUND BY BOREDOM.
There is no rebuilding of an earthly temple and reenactment of blood sacrifices. This is abominable in the eyes of the One Who gave His Only Begotten Son to, " make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy." Daniel 9:24

Seventy weeks WERE determined upon the people of Israel and upon their holy city, (Jerusalem) to finish the transgression. They filled up their cup of iniquity (see Matt. 23:29-39). Israel as a NATION was left desolate but as INDIVIDUALS the Jews have a higher standing then do the Gentiles in that they can and will be (if they accept haMachiach as their Savior) grafted back on to the Vine were as the Gentiles, like the strangers in the encampment in the wilderness, must be adopted.
We must study the Word as a whole not taking texts out of context to support our own agenda.

Of the Scribes and Pharasees Messiah said, "Woe unto you, ye blind guides..." Matthew 23:16 and again in verse 24, "Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel."
"Then came His disciples, and said unto Him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? But He answered and said, Every plant, which My heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. LEAVE them: they are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matthew 15:12-14
"How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Then understood they how that He bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, BUT OF THE DOCTRINE OF THE PHARASEES AND OF THE SADDUCEES." Matthew 16:11-12

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom Yochanah

Yikes Let's try to keep our posts a little more brief so that we can focus on one issue at a time. Not only that, but it makes if very difficult for others to follow along. Because your reply was so long, my response to your statements will also be at length. Here we go...

I must respectfully disagree with you here because this text in Ezekiel is a vision therefore prophetic and symbolic.

Of course it begins with a vision...this is the only way it could be revealed because it is the future...most rabbis as well as many respected scholars agree that it is a vision that shows a literal future (just like in Daniel's prophecy of the number of Days until Messiah's coming was also literal and cannot be spiritualized away). In this sense there are many literal descriptions within prophecy. It is mostly Seventh Day Adventists, and other groups that spiritualize the whole issue to fit with their theology (which much of it is false).

The word "fulfil" according to the KJV Strong's Concordance means to SATISFY.....With His death those symbolic gestures were "fulfilled", satisfied.

This is the very same argument that most evangelical Christians use to say that has been done away with. You cannot pick and choose which commandments you wish to "SATISFY". The scripture gives you no such luxury as we can see in the following statement....

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
- Matthew 5:17-19

The "one jot or one tittle" most definetly includes all of . Therefore, all we have to do is look outside to see if heaven, and Earth has passed away to see the truth. Furthermore, the term "fulfill" is not as simple as what you make it out to be. Let's take a look...

The Greek word in question is "pleroo" {play-ro'-o}

1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full

a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally

1) I abound, I am liberally supplied

2) to render full, i.e. to complete

a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim

b) to consummate: a number

1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect

2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)

c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise

1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute

2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish

3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

We can conclude from this, and from much of the rabbinic conversation of the time that Yeshua came to rightly interpret, to perfectly execute, to show what full observance really looks like. And, being that He executed it perfectly He is able to be the perfect sacrifice pleasing to God. Many times when a rabbi did not agree with another rabbi's interpretation of they would say, "You are destroying the !". In this light, and the actual meaning of the Greek word in question we can see that Yeshua did not come to destroy by His teachings, but He came to rightly interpret . This can also be seen in numerous rabbinic writings that they indeed believed that Mashiach (Messiah) would come and rightly interpret The including the "jot, and the tittle". And, they freely admit that until then there is much that they will not fully understand in the TeNaKh.

This is clearly what Yeshua came to do, and He was most familiar with the rabbinic discussion style, and what they believe Messiah would come, and do. This is what He was communicating. If He was indeed communicating to them that He came to do away with the Temple, and it's sacrifices during the time that it was clearly still standing...they would have been in a uproar and would have specificaly called Him on it. Obviously, this was not the case. And, if He was communicating this then by His own statement He would be least in the Kingdom of Heaven...Not! Yeshua also gives a strict warning to those whom would teach against even one of the least of the commandments found in (as many are doing)...

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
- Matthew 5:19

Most definitely the mitzvah's, and covenants found in (in regard's to the Temple, and it's priesthood) are included within the least of the commandments found in . The only way that you can escape from this truth is to spritualize it all away by conjecture. Instead, we should hear the clear words of scripture.

Furthermore, we see that in Acts 21:23-26 Sha'ul honored a Temple sacrifice signifying that it had -not- been made moot by Yeshua's Sacrifice. Also, we can see in many of the writings of Sha'ul (Paul) that he made several pilgrimages to Jerusalem for the feasts. The only reason for this would be if the Temple was standing, and he respected the commandment because of the Temple, and it's priesthood. In Acts 25:8 we see that Paul himself said that he has not offended in anything in regards to The Temple. We also see that the Yeshua commanded a man to make a sacrifice in Matthew 8:4. These accounts regarding The Temple, and it's Priesthood cannot be ignored.

Continued....

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

To reenact that which was fulfilled by the Ultimate Sacrifice of our Beloved Savior would be heresy at best and blasphemy if acted out. To begin blood sacrifices again would be to say haMachiach died in vain.

Not if you understand the Levitical Priesthood never at any time competed, nor will compete with Yeshua's sacrifice. They are two totally separate priesthood's, and two totally separate sacrifices with different purposes. As we see in the book of Hebrews the blood of bulls, and goats never truly took away sins. The key to this understanding is found in the following passage...

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins."
- Hebrews 10:1-4

The sacrificial system both in the past, and in the future will not be able to truly take away sins in the sense that it will make the person perfect, and make the person stop sinning. This was the point of Yeshua's coming so that we all may have access to the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) so that we may actually have the power to stop sinning. A blood sacrifice from a bull, or goat could not do this. This was simply an elaborate confession system that served to demonstrate how serious, and ugly sin is. But, to be honest, many in the Christian community, and among us treat sin -way- too casually, and I believe we could use some extreme reminders such as a sacrifice to remind us how ugly our sin is. All of the righteous men found in the TeNaKh were covered by Yeshua's blood as He is actually the lamb slain from the foundation of the world...

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
- Revelation 13:8

And, the righteous, and holy men of God found in the TeNaKh (old test.) did not have a problem with the sacrificial system, nor did they think it would be blasphemy for it to be in harmony with the Gospel. The Gospel is described in the scriptures as the everlasting Gospel that was preached before Messiah's coming (Galations 3:8, Hebrews 4:2, Rev.14:6)...it did not change with His coming. For the individual, Messiah would have only died in vain for them if they believed that the animal blood sacrifices actually took the place of Yeshua's sacrifice (which has already been demonstrated that they don't).

I would like to add to this, again, that WE, the followers of Yeshua who keep the commands of Yah, blessed be His name, are the, "...chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light: 1 Peter 2:9

The idea of "The Church" replacing the people, or priesthood of Israel is commonly known as "Replacement Theology". We do not replace anybody as a priesthood, or a people. We are either a separate priesthood with a separate purpose that have been joined to the people, and commonwealth of Israel, or some of us will actually be taken for a cohen (Levite). Notice how the following prophecy is future, and literal...

"And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto YHVH out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith YHVH, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of YHVH. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith YHVH. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith YHVH, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith YHVH. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."
- Isaiah 66:19-24

Again, notice how this prophecy is not only future, but it describes that YHVH will make many of them that come out of the nations (Goyim) to be "priests and...Levites". But, I suppose you could spiritualize that away if you wanted to. Will we be spiritual Levites?
Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying this conversation.

They (Israel of the flesh) did, and we do, break His covenant and thereby He is free to break covenant with us if He has a mind to.

Yes, and no. He promised the covenant would be good as long as the night, and day continue...it is always there ready to be reinstated. Just as this most recent covenant (Brit Hadashah/New cov.) is always there, and it can be reinstated for anybody that grabs hold of it. But again, you cannot say that He broke His covenant unless you can break His covenant of the day, and His covenant of the night. Also remember that this prophecy found in Jeremiah 33:16-22 is indeed future as Judah has not been saved, and Jerusalem does not dwell safely...

"In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, YHVH our righteousness. For thus saith YHVH; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

O.k., let's stop here. Again notice how this is future, and the language describing a man whom will sit on the throne of the house of Israel clearly refers to Yeshua. The very next verse describes that there will be harmony between the Levitical priesthood, and the Messianic King. Is this blasphemy? Of course not. We must interpret prophecy (even SDA prophecy) in the light of the clear teaching of the TeNaKh. Let's continue reading the passage in question....

"And the word of YHVH came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith YHVH; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers."

Again, in the above passage (wich is future) we see that there is a clear connection between the future Davidic King (Yeshua), and "the Levites the priests". We also see that unless the covenant with day, and night (this is not rethorical) can be broken, than the covenant with Levi cannot be broken. Not only that, but because the covenant with David (Messiah) is connected with this...if you say that Levi's covenant has been broken, than we must conclude that David's (Messiah's) covenant can also be broken. You cannnot believe one without the other. Do we serve a God that will break the New Covenant? Certainly not! But, when we say that He has broken, and done away with the other covenant linked with this covenant, we do indeed indirectly claim this (whether we realize it, or not).

"As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me."

Finally, in the last portion of this passage we see that in the future He will indeed multiply the Levitical Priesthood. But, I guess this could also be spirtualized away to mean whatever you want it to.

Dear sister, I am glad to see that we can have such intense discussion such as this, and still express brotherly, and sisterly love as we are members of the same family, yet with different views.

Your brother in Yeshua HaMashiach,

Reuel

[Yochanah]

Shalom OK, I will keep it short...

What is the point of the temple being rebuilt

and the re-enactment of animal sacrifices?

[Yochanah]

P.S. Just something to think about...

In the New Kingdom there is no more death...how and

why should poor animals be sacrifice?

The priesthood will follow the Lamb wherever He

goes...countless universes and worlds to investigate

and explore...

He said, "Ye are My friends, if ye do whatsoever I

command you." John 15:14 (KJV)

I fear we have a very wrong picture of Who our

Almighty Provider is and what He wants for us and from

us.

I think it is time to move on to something else, my

brother.

Ahavah Shalom,

Yochanah

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom Achoit (sister) Yochanah

Since you have communicated this will be one of your last reponses to this thread, I would like to bring out several other details that I have not had an opportunity to communicate yet. So, this response will be a bit lengthy. So much for brief responses ....Sorry

First, I will address your question...

Shalom OK, I will keep it short...
What is the point of the temple being rebuilt
and the re-enactment of animal sacrifices?

Many times when God commands something such as Sabbath, kosher eating, or the wearing of tzitziyot we do not discover it's intended meaning until it happens, or we experience it. But, what we can trust is that God knows what He is doing, and that we should follow Him knowing that. One of the purposes which I have mentioned before in regards to the coming Temple of God, and it's sacrifical system will be for an elaberate confession of sin just as it was in the past. These things can certainly teach us, and point to Messiah's sacrifice, but this does not mean that His sacrifice takes the place of the covenant that YHVH said He would not break, nor will these sacrifices take the place of Messiah's Sacrifice as they are two different sacrifices for different purposes...Just as there are many covenants built upon each other for different purposes which do not cancel each other out. I would also say that The Temple, it's authority, and it's system will indeed be for Messiah's purposes during His reign for His government, and authority structure, (and this will be before there is no more death).

I believe that the scriptures say that there will be no more death after His thousand year reign (or however long someone thinks it is), and will not happen until the New Jerusalem descends after that time. I believe that the following passage found in Zechariah 14:2-21 is the beginning of Messiah's reign, and His new authority structure. There are many key passages here, so let's take a look...

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall YHVH go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and YHVH my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to YHVH, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light."

Let's stop here and take a look at a few things. We see that this describes the second coming of Mashiach (Messiah) when "his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west". This happens before the New Jerusalem descends as we also see in the book of Revelation (Rev. 14:1). This is important because the TeNaKh helps to explain some of the more cryptic books such as Revelation. Let's continue reading in Zechariah...

"it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And YHVH shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one YHVH, and his name one."

In the above passage there are a few important details to point out. It speaks of the living waters that shall go out from Jerusalem. But, we see that this must be before the New Jerusalem descends as there is mention of a "sea". In the book of Revelation it states that when the New Jerusalem descends there will not be any more "sea"...

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."
- Revelation 21:1

Another interesting detail to point out here is that this is when Heaven, and Earth will pass away, which is after the thousand year reign of Messiah. And, not until this point can we consider that any of His can be made void as we see in Mat. 5:18...

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

It will not be until Heaven, and Earth actually pass away that we can begin considering the status of His , and the things contained therein. This is when "all be fulfilled". We have quite a while until this happens. We also see that in Revelation Chapter 21 that the dimensions of the New Jerusalem are totally different to the Temple that is described in the book of Ezekiel. But, if we continue in Zechariah 14:2-21 we will see more enlightening details...

"All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited."

There is a key verse here that we can easily tie to the passage that we have been looking at in the book of Jeremiah (33:16-22). When we read the underlined passage above we can see that this is also communicated in Jeremiah 33:16...

"In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, YHVH our righteousness."

This is important to understand because both passages take place before the New Jerusalem, and both passages in Jeremiah, and Zechariah describe the fully functional Levitical Priesthood operating in harmony with the Davidic King (Yeshua). This will become more clear as we continue to read our passage in the book of Zechariah...

"And this shall be the plague wherewith YHVH will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from YHVH shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague."

We must conclude from this plague that there will be some suffering, and death. This takes place after the description of the living waters found in this same passage of Jeremiah. Let us continue to read in Zechariah...

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, YHVH of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, YHVH of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith YHVH will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."

We see here that after Messiah establishes His Kingship over all the people, and the Earth (especially the nations that came against Jerusalem), they will have to "go up from year to year to worship the King, YHVH of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles". Go up where? The says to Jerusalem, and this passage agrees. It will be the very city that they came against. They must go up because this is what commands when the Temple, and the priesthood are operating, and Israel's rulership will extend to all the Earth.

These instructions found in are the very reason why when we celebrate Sukkot today we do not go up...because there is no Temple. But, obviously in the book of Ezekiel we see that this will change. They will actually be keeping the literal "Feast of Tabernacles". It will not be a strictly spiritual observance of the Feast in regards to the neglect of the actual intructions found in . At this time there will be truly one /Law for both the native born, and the one of the nations (Num.15:15-16) as the shall flow forth from Zion (the Law of Israel will cover the Earth), and the nations shall come for the pilgrimage feasts as described in Leviticus 23...

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of YHVH'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of YHVH, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the /Law, and the word of YHVH from Jerusalem."
- Isaiah 2:2-3

We see that the people (those of the nations/Goyim) shall flow unto "YHVH's House" (which in Judaism during the time was, and is clear language describing the future Temple). And, they will do this according to the instructions found in the /Law that will flow forth from Zion as described in the above passage. When we continue reading our passage in the book of Zechariah we see even more details that confirm the operation of The Temple...

"In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO YHVH; and the pots in YHVH'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto YHVH of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of YHVH of hosts."

We see in the above passage that during this time the nations are coming up to observe the moedim (appointed times) at The Temple (wich is synonamous with "YHVH'S (The L-rd's) House". We see the description of the altar, and the pot's and bowls that are in The Temple. And, finally we see; "and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them". Clearly the sacrificial system will be in place, and The Temple operating as we have already seen in Jeremiah 33:16-22.

I fear we have a very wrong picture of Who our Almighty Provider is and what He wants for us and from us

The only picture we should have, and that He has given us is His Son, which is the Word, which we can read in the Holy Scriptures. And, from this I have demonstrated the things of which I speak. At first, I strongly opposed what I am know communicating. So, I understand that these things are hard to accept, especially because we have been taught the total opposite for hundreds of years. But, this is what the scripture outlines for us. And again, anything that we read in the book of Hebrews, Peter, or Revelation must be interpreted through the foundation which is the TeNaKh.

I think it is time to move on to something else, my brother.

Sounds good to me. We can agree to disagree.

I want to say that you handled yourself very well in this discussion.

Shalom chaver,

Reuel