Torah Observant?

[Mpossoff]

Hi all,

As I said in my testimony the Lord has been nudging me to seek the importance of me being a Jewish believer.

I posted a question about the Law and the Spirit has convicted me.

Don't know where I'm going here but I do know.

Since it's been revealed to me the importance of being a Jewish believer I thought that I'm missing that mark. What mark am I'm referring too? The mark that I think I should be observing the Law because I am a Jew.

Everytime I try to do study on this(since I'm a Jew I should be doing the what Jews do, , 613 Mitvahs, etc) the Spirit stops me in my tracks. Why? Because I become too intent on the Law get messed up and then enlightened.

That there is no obligation to keep the Law of Moses. As Paul puts it, "the Law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor" (Galatians 3:24,25). The Law taught us how desperately we need Messiah - we fail on our own.

As a believer in Messiah, Yeshua has fulfilled the for me. Thus I am no longer obliged to keep its demands. However, I must walk in Messiah's Spirit, keeping the spirit of , which entails love for God and neighbor, the Greatest Commandment which is the hinge that opens up the door. Without the Love for the Lord and neighbor we are stuck with religion.

Now I'm not implying that you shouldn't observe/practice.

Colossians 2:16 & 17 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Feasts and sabbaths are not matters believers are to be "judged" in.We will never be judged for not keeping these.

I will say that there are "sects" of Christianity that condone feasts and festivals.

So I like hear from those that are observant and it is benificial to your relationship with Jesus and your spiritual growth.

Thanks!

Marc

[Yitzchak]

mpossoff said:

Hi all,

As I said in my testimony the Lord has been nudging me to seek the importance of me being a Jewish believer.

This is a very common happening today. It seems that the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) is beginning to nudge many Jewish believers to learn about their roots. We just had a man who has been in the church for 25 years come to a service, as he was led by the spirit.

I posted a question about the Law and the Spirit has convicted me.

In some cases the word Law and are interchangeable. However, it often depends on the context of the scripture.

Don't know where I'm going here but I do know.

Since it's been revealed to me the importance of being a Jewish believer I thought that I'm missing that mark. What mark am I'm referring too? The mark that I think I should be observing the Law because I am a Jew.

The problem with most Jews that come to a knowlege of Messiah in the church is that they become Hellenized. How do I know this, because I was one.

I was raised in Orthodox Judaism, but walked away from it in my teens. When I came to faith in Messiah, it was in a church, and I eventually became a pastor.

What I mean by Hellenized, is that you are now a Greek thinker, rather than a Hebraic thinker. In other words you are a Yid with a Goyishe Kop (Don't know if you understand the Yiddish}

You are being taught by a pastor who has a Greek mindset regarding the scriptures. The scriptures, however, are a Jewish document. Written by Jews for Jews. The problem is that this Jewish religion, which included Yeshua (Jesus) as Messiah was hijacked by Constantine and the Council of Nicea. Thus we have what is modern day christianity, rather than Messianic Judaism or Biblical Judaism.

In Genesis 35 G-d made a promise to Yaacov to make of him "Goy V'Kahal Goyim" (A nation, and a commonwealth of nations}. This is the same thing that is spoken of in Ephesians 2 where those who were aliens to the commmonwealth are now brought near through the sacrifice of Messiah.

You see, G-d always desired a commonwealth of Israel. He set apart the Jews, and set apart a commonwealth in order to bring redemption to all the nations. The church is not that commonwealth.

Everytime I try to do study on this(since I'm a Jew I should be doing the what Jews do, , 613 Mitvahs, etc) the Spirit stops me in my tracks. Why? Because I become too intent on the Law get messed up and then enlightened.

Nobody can keep all of . We are not in Jerusalem, and we do not have a temple.

Further G-d does not want you to be a Rabbinic Jew, but a Biblical Jew.

That there is no obligation to keep the Law of Moses. As Paul puts it, "the Law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor" (Galatians 3:24,25). The Law taught us how desperately we need Messiah - we fail on our own.

I suggest that you check the again. There are many instances where we as Jews are told that a command was given as an everlasting commandment. I don't know about you, but everlasting is everlasting. We are required to keep the feasts, eventhough we are unable to go to the temple.

What Messiah delivered us from was the curse of the Law. The Law required death, but through the sacrifice of Messiah, we are no longer under the death penalty required by the Law.

As a believer in Messiah, Yeshua has fulfilled the for me. Thus I am no longer obliged to keep its demands. However, I must walk in Messiah's Spirit, keeping the spirit of , which entails love for God and neighbor, the Greatest Commandment which is the hinge that opens up the door. Without the Love for the Lord and neighbor we are stuck with religion.

This is an interesting statement. How is it that Paul who you quote above was also observant if Messiah freed him from the ? Keep in mind that there is a big difference between fulfill and abrogate.

Now I'm not implying that you shouldn't observe/practice.

Colossians 2:16 & 17 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Feasts and sabbaths are not matters believers are to be "judged" in.We will never be judged for not keeping these.

This is one of my favorite misquoted passages from scripture. It is a faulty translation of the original Greek, and is based on a christian bias.

Let us look at what the Greek really says:

Col 2:16

Meé (no/not) oún (therefore) tis (any man) humás (you) krinétoo (Let judge) en (in) broósei (meat) kaí (and) en (in) pósei (drink) eé (or/either) en (in) mérei (respect) heorteés (of a feast day) eé (or) neomeenías (of a new moon) eé (or) sabbátoon (of sabbath days)

Col 2:17

há (which) estin (are) skiá (a shadow) toón mellóntoon (of the things to come) tó (the) dé (but) soóma (body) toú Christoú (of ).
Messiah

Let us take a closer look at Col 2:16-17. Many translations begin these verses with: "Let no one therefore judge you ...". An equally correct translation would be "Therefore, do not let anyone judge you..." (The Greek word "tis" is an indefinite pronoun and would normally be translated: a man/thing, any man/thing, a certain man/thing, some man/thing). Among the translations that I have access to, the NIV (New International Version) and the LITV (Literal Translation of the Holy Bible) have opted for this (second) rendering. The difference between these two translations may seem insignificant, but once we have established the correct translation of the remainder of these two verses, it will make a lot more sense.

The next group of words is usually translated as: "...in food or in drink...". Although some Greek manuscripts have the word "or" (Greek: "ee") between "broosei" (English: meat or food) and "posei" (English: drink), the majority of the recognized Greek New Testaments (based on the most reliable Greek manuscripts) join the two words with "and" - the English translation should therefore read: "... in food and in drink ...". Why this obvious and straightforward rendering is not reflected in the majority of the existing translations, is hard to understand.

The remainder of the nouns in this verse ("festival", "new moon" and "sabbaths") are all preceded by a combination of "ee" (English: "or") and the idiomatic "en merei" (a Greek expression which may be translated: "in respect of" or "as a part of" or "with regards to"). The fact that "food" and "drink" are joined with "and", while "festival", "new moon" and "sabbaths" are joined with "or", together with the obvious placement of "en merei" after "food and drink" but before "a festival or a new moon or sabbaths" is something that should not be ignored in the translation of this verse.

Taking into consideration what has been pointed out thus far, verse 16 would best be translated as "Therefore, do not let anyone judge you in food/meat and in drink - (either) as part of (or "with regards to") a festival or a new moon or (the) sabbaths ..."

Verse 17 is a continuation of verse 16 and begins with "...which are a shadow of the things to come...". This should obviously be understood as an extension of the last part of the previous verse and the intended meaning is most probably: Festivals, new moons and sabbaths are (collectively) considered to be a shadow of the things to come. Most commentators view this "shadow" in a very negative light, contrasting it with "sooma" (the well known Greek word for "body") in the second part of this verse.

Question is: Why do almost all translators have this obsession to contrast "shadow" in the first part of verse 17 with "body" in the second part of verse 17? In order to do this, at least four very basic grammatical principles have to be overlooked or else stretched to its limits:

The Greek word "sooma" has to be translated with something like "substance" or "reality" (in stead of the usual "body"). This translation is very peculiar, to say the least, and if this is indeed the intended meaning of "sooma" in this verse, it would seem that in 147 instances in the New Testament where "sooma" is used, this is the only place where it takes on this rather unusual meaning.[/quote]

I will say that there are sects of Christianity that condone feasts and festivals.

And this is a good thing.

So I like hear from those that are observant and it is benificial to your relationship with Jesus and your spiritual growth.

Thanks!

Marc

All I can say to you Marc is that as a Jew you are meant to remain a Jew. You are not called to assimilate into the church. Yeshua is your Jewish Messiah. He worshipped as a Jew. Paul worshipped as a Jew. Yeshua did not come to form a new religion. What He came to do was to re-establish "True Biblical Judaism"

I will leave you with an interesting thought to ponder. You said in your testimony that you came to understand that Jesus is G-d. I believe that as well, and as such I believe that He was their at creation, and was there when the was given. That means that He is the giver, and I believe He is the made flesh. If you believe that He is and was G-d, then you have to beleive He gave His people the . So here is the question.

Why would the giver, give us a Law that was going to put us into bondage, only to come later to free us from the Law?


Shalom,

Yitzchak

[/quote]

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom Rav Yitzchak,

Well said!

The "tutor" (Greek:pedagogue) spoken of here served to protect and was not the teacher. It simply protected as it directed the student to the teacher. This was just one function of . It protects one that observes it until they are able to walk in a trusting relationship with the giver...the Teacher...Yeshua The Messiah. It protects one until the is written on our hearts. Of course keeping still protects us from the effects of sin afterwords, but it's function as just the "pedagogue" ceases.

And of course, The Teacher does not stop teaching at this point, but now the talmid (student) has a new relationship to it, and the starts functioning in a different manner...before, it served only to condemn and deliver us to Messiah...but, after this happens this primary function ceases to be primary as it will now serve as the lifestyle of the redeemed. Obviously, shows us our sins...this is how we know we need the redemption that Mashiach provides for us. But, once we are delivered to the redeemer do we continue to sin (as defined by the agent that first sent us to Messiah)?....By no means!

Read the words of the man whom many believe is teaching against keeping the words that define what is sin and what is not ()....

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer?" - Romans 6:1-2

Do we come to Messiah only to use Him as an excuse to break our Heavenly Father's ?? What a witness that would be to our Jewish bretheren....We have Jesus, so we can break ! Please don't tell me that you really believe this. What would Yeshua think?!

"Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least mitzvot, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven." - Mattityahu (Matt.) 5:19

So, we know exactly what our Master thinks about those whom would teach this. Of course the correct and intended mode of a believer keeping is one of faith and trust in Adonai and not through a need to be saved by it's keeping. This is what Sha'ul (Paul) was trying so hard to teach. A few other statements from Rav Sha'ul (Paul), the person whom many Christians believe is teaching against the keeping of ...

"Do we then nullify the law () through faith? May it never be! No, we establish the law." - Romans 3:31

Of course, many anti-nomian Christians would try to tell us that this "law" is the law of love and not the law of our Heavenly Father's ...like they are apposed to each other...like our Father wrote a law of hate...please! Why would the law of love be annulled by faith...it wouldn't! Sha'ul was trying to explain that even though we are not saved by keeping ...true trust and obedience to El Elyon will be manifested in establishing His Word in our life...His very . This is the end-state of a mature believer in Messiah. Sha'ul further comments on this Biblical fact...

"All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work." - 2Timothy 3:16-17

We will want to note that the above certainly would be a contradictory teaching for a man whom is teaching against observance...the very foundation of all the rest of the scriptures. Please also note that when Sha'ul (Paul) wrote this passage (as found in 2Timothy) the writings of the Brit Chadashah (New Covenenant) were not even compiled for another couple hundred years...The "scripture" that Sha'ul and all the disciples used and had access to was nothing less than the TeNaKh (, Prophets, and Writings).

Those whom are allowing The Ruach Hakodesh (the Holy Spirit) to dwell in them and are not quenching this Spirit in their life will indeed begin to keep our Heavenly Father's ...this is one of the promises of the New Covenant....

"And I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give to you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them."
- Yechezkel (Ezek.) 36:26-27

The effect of having a "Law" written on your heart is that it will produce the fruit of keeping that very law. Elohim does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever...and so is His instruction (). Any "law" can be turned into an unhealthy reliance on a system of legalism whether it is using unlawfully or if it is all the various things that anyone in any religion feels they should be doing as a faithful follower. So, do you believe you should be doing anything for Adonai?? And, if so would you describe it as legalism?...And, if not...how would this be any different from keeping the very commandments given to the people of the Elohim of Yisrael out of love to a Father whom has clearly commanded you to do so?

Yeshua our Messiah is our example. He displayed perfect love, He displayed perfect faith, He displayed perfect righteousness. He kept . Can we be perfect exactly like Him? No. All have sinned and have fallen short. Does He still call us to strive to be like Him...Of course!

"For I am YHVH your Elohim. Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be holy; for I am holy..." - Vayikra (Lev.) 11:44

Yeshua said,

"A talmid (student) is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his lord. It is enough for the talmid that he be like his teacher, and the servant like his lord." - Mattityahu (Matt.) 10:24-25

I encourage you...be like your Master as much as you can out of love for Him...not because you have to. But, even if you do it out of shear fear....the fear of Elohim is the beginning of wisdom and perhaps you have yet to be tutored by ...

"He has sent redemption to his people. He has ordained his covenant forever. His name is holy and awesome! The fear of YHVH is the beginning of wisdom. All those who do his work have a good understanding. His praise endures forever!" - Tehillim (Psalms) 111:9-10

Keep in mind that the writer of Tehillim (Psalms) 111 is also the writer of Tehillim 119....take a moment to read it.

Shalom,

Reuel

[Mark]

Hi Marc,

I wanted to weigh in here, too, and express to you the deep sense of regret I have for what is likely going to lead to conflict and confusion in what you have been (and probably are being) taught about the value of the Old Testament Scriptures in the life of a follower of the Messiah. My brothers Yitchak and Reuel have given you a lot of good information that it could potentially derail your growth in Messiah, at least in the contexts you have experienced it in the Bible studies you have had thus far.

I want you to know that I applaud your knowledge of the Scriptures- only having been a believer for a couple of years, you have a greater handle on the Word than many who have sat in the Church all of their life. This convinces me that you also have the fortitude to weigh these things prayerfully as you grow in grace and in the knowledge of your Lord and Savior, Yeshua Messiah.

I encourage you to share this web-site and the information you are getting here with your Christian teacher. If possible, sit down with him and read these threads together; but in doing so, don't leave us out of the conversation. Solomon tells us that the first person to tell you something always seems right; but then someone else comes along with a little different perspective. Often, it can be very confusing.

We are praying for your wife, that she comes to the knowledge of the Messiah. This is a gift from Adonai, not the result of manipulative arguments, not the result of backing a person into a theological corner. We pray that your relationship with your wife grows stronger as she sees the work of Messiah changing and beautifying your life.

I'd like to offer you a document I had written some time ago called "Why Yeshua... Why Not Jesus". It demonstrates Yeshua as the Messiah from the Tanakh and defends His Messiahship against the arguments of rabbinical Judaism, then goes into the history of the Church and why the Church has separated herself from her Jewishness. It is too large to post as a thread; but I would happy to send it to you as an e-mail. Of course, it is also available for anyone else who might be interested in reading it. It's about 20 pages.

[Mpossoff]

I ask Adonai to show me the truth and to remove any strongholds that I have.

I came to the Lord February 21st of 2006 not that time means anything.

I am blessed that Adonai has given me the ability if you will the zealousness for His Word and the understanding.

It might be that what I'm being taught could be a conflict. But I want to express that although it might be a conflict that the Pastor who has been guiding me through scriptures that he is a blessing from the Lord to help give me the knowledge from Adonai.

I come here to be open and yes I can be prideful but I hope that you and others will be able to point that out to me. Yes I still live in this flesh and yes I do battle with pride amongst other "sins". Often times I will type a post and the Holy Spirit tells me to delete it or not even go there, if you know what I mean.

Thanks,

Marc

[Chizuk Emunah]

Since it's been revealed to me the importance of being a Jewish believer I thought that I'm missing that mark. What mark am I'm referring too? The mark that I think I should be observing the Law because I am a Jew.

Marc, this "mark" that is being missed is actually the . When we fall short of the mark, we land in sin, as sin itself is defined by the .

Everytime I try to do study on this(since I'm a Jew I should be doing the what Jews do, , 613 Mitvahs, etc) the Spirit stops me in my tracks. Why? Because I become too intent on the Law get messed up and then enlightened.

Yes, as a Jew you should be observing all applicable mitzvot. Even Goyim that have joined to Israel are required to keep the mitzvot.

One thing that is often forgotten, and Yitzchak underscored this, is that not all mitzvot are applicable to any one person. I think I tallied it once and there were only 230 that are applicable while living in the Galut (exile) without a rebuilt Kadosh Beit HaMikdash (Holy Temple).

As for being led by the 'Spirit.' Be careful that you are listening to the Ruach HaKodesh (Divine Breath of G-d) and not some false spirit. Far too many times I have heard Jewish Christians say that they feel led by the 'Spirit' that they don't have to observe . In these cases I believe that they are being led by a false spirit. So, please my brother, exercise extreme caution.

That there is no obligation to keep the Law of Moses.

Yitzchak really hit it on the head here. The of HaShem was not given to us to be a temporary document, but instead was given for all eternity.

As a believer in Messiah, Yeshua has fulfilled the for me. Thus I am no longer obliged to keep its demands.

See my above comments.

I encourage you to share this web-site and the information you are getting here with your Christian teacher.

I would actually disagree with this approach. Unless he is open and receptive to observance (and most Christian pastors are not), then I would cease studying with him.


Shalom,
Natanel

[Mpossoff]

Natanel thanks!

So are you saying that observing the is sin in itself?

What is the doctrine of original sin?

Marc

[Chizuk Emunah]

So are you saying that observing the is sin in itself?

No, no, no. What I am saying is that the provides for us the standard of what is sin and what is not.

What is the doctrine of original sin?

The doctrine of original sin teaches that human beings are born with a general condition of sinfulness.

I would disagree with this doctrine on the grounds that in Judaism, children are considered pure and innocent until they reach bar or bat mitzvah age. For example, if a baby were killed I do not believe that it's soul would be condemned to eternal separation. At that stage, it is still pure and innocent of any wrongdoing.

Shalom,
Natanel

[Mpossoff]

Yes I agree we are born with a sin nature.

I agree that the provides the standard of what is sin and what is not because how would we know what sin is.

How does one become observant as I'm starting to see that it's important.

Marc

notzriyehudi said:

So are you saying that observing the is sin in itself?

No, no, no. What I am saying is that the provides for us the standard of what is sin and what is not.

What is the doctrine of original sin?

The doctrine of original sin teaches that human beings are born with a general condition of sinfulness.

I would disagree with this doctrine on the grounds that in Judaism, children are considered pure and innocent until they reach bar or bat mitzvah age. For example, if a baby were killed I do not believe that it's soul would be condemned to eternal separation. At that stage, it is still pure and innocent of any wrongdoing.

Shalom,
Natanel

[Chizuk Emunah]

Yes I agree we are born with a sin nature.

I would say that we are born with both an inclination towards good {yetzer tov} and an inclination towards evil {yetzer ra}. The yetzer ra can be overcome.

I agree that the provides the standard of what is sin and what is not because how would we know what sin is.

Bingo!

How does one become observant as I'm starting to see that it's important.

Baruch HaShem!

Here is how one may become observant:

1) Acknowledge that the was given by HaShem to mankind as the standard for righteous living

2) Be willing to subordinate your will and your life to HaShem, as this will involve a complete lifestyle change over time

3) Once you have done the above, you are ready for step 3, which is to start studying the . I would recommend you pick up a Stone Chumash, as the commentary it contains is excellent. I would also recommend you get your hands on Messianic commentaries on the weekly parsha. You can look both here and at www.bereansonline.org.

4) Once you have begun to study the , you will continually learn what the mitzvot entail. As you learn them, you can implement them as applicable. Obviously if you live in the Galut, you are not able to keep the ones applicable to Eretz HaKodesh (The Holy Land). Once you are ready, there is a "cheat sheet" available here on the forum, with a list of all 613 mitzvot.

[Mpossoff]

Natanel where can I pick up a copy of the Stone Chumash?

On the internet?

I'm familiar with Christian book stores but not familiar with Jewsih bookstores if there is any such thing.

Marc

[Pioneer]

Marc, if price is of conscideration, the internet, one of the shopper nets, they will show you all the places, prices and shipping charges. I have both the Chumash and Tanack, from one of the sites. Got a bargain and free shipping.
The Chumash has by far the most commentary, I needed a lot.
In fact my favorite website was www.torahtots.com because I was such a tot. Needed a bunch of teaching.

Hope you find what you want.

Shalom

[Chizuk Emunah]

Marc,

You can pick one up from Amazon (that's where I got mine). Here's the link: Stone Chumash

[Mpossoff]

Just ordered it!

Thanks!

Am excited to get it.

Marc

[Mpossoff]

Hi Mark,

Would appreciate that document.

Please send it to [later edited for privacy]


Marc

mark said:

Hi Marc,

I wanted to weigh in here, too, and express to you the deep sense of regret I have for what is likely going to lead to conflict and confusion in what you have been (and probably are being) taught about the value of the Old Testament Scriptures in the life of a follower of the Messiah. My brothers Yitchak and Reuel have given you a lot of good information that it could potentially derail your growth in Messiah, at least in the contexts you have experienced it in the Bible studies you have had thus far.

I want you to know that I applaud your knowledge of the Scriptures- only having been a believer for a couple of years, you have a greater handle on the Word than many who have sat in the Church all of their life. This convinces me that you also have the fortitude to weigh these things prayerfully as you grow in grace and in the knowledge of your Lord and Savior, Yeshua Messiah.

I encourage you to share this web-site and the information you are getting here with your Christian teacher. If possible, sit down with him and read these threads together; but in doing so, don't leave us out of the conversation. Solomon tells us that the first person to tell you something always seems right; but then someone else comes along with a little different perspective. Often, it can be very confusing.

We are praying for your wife, that she comes to the knowledge of the Messiah. This is a gift from Adonai, not the result of manipulative arguments, not the result of backing a person into a theological corner. We pray that your relationship with your wife grows stronger as she sees the work of Messiah changing and beautifying your life.

I'd like to offer you a document I had written some time ago called "Why Yeshua... Why Not Jesus". It demonstrates Yeshua as the Messiah from the Tanakh and defends His Messiahship against the arguments of rabbinical Judaism, then goes into the history of the Church and why the Church has separated herself from her Jewishness. It is too large to post as a thread; but I would happy to send it to you as an e-mail. Of course, it is also available for anyone else who might be interested in reading it. It's about 20 pages.