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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 19, 2009 13:31:58 GMT -8
This thread is the first of several threads that will come out of the "Will Christians Be Saved" thread.
This thread's intention is to look at several of the Christian creeds, and discuss why very people may agree or disagree with the creeds.
While disagreement is to be expected in this thread, I'm looking for a civil discussion.
Please keep in mind that there are both Christians and Messianic Jews that will be participating in this thread. (For example, I'm Christian). I'm hoping that we can learn from each other, and have a better idea of where the other side is coming from.
The reason why I feel this discussion is important is because many Christians, Christian apologists, churches, and denominations consider what is contained in these creeds to define what Christian orthodoxy is. While interpretation of certain parts of these creeds will vary from denomination to denomination, and between Roman Catholic and Protestant, all Christians value the creeds.
With that said, these creeds help establish how Christianity has determined what is outside of the bounds of the Christian faith. Since Messianic Judaism does not claim to be Christian (at least from what I can tell, please correct me if I'm wrong), but yet we both believe in Jesus, it will be interesting to see where we differ.
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 19, 2009 13:33:54 GMT -8
I invite anyone who wants to to respond....I will try to limit my responses to once a week.
I will begin by posting the creeds that are generally recognized as defining what Christian orthodoxy is. Then I will let whoever wants to to respond. You may talk about just one creed, all three of the creeds, or one section of a particular creed.
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 19, 2009 13:35:44 GMT -8
The Apostles Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 19, 2009 13:37:51 GMT -8
Please note that the phrase in orange makes this the Western version of the creed. The Eastern version is exactly the same, but without the words in orange.
The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almghty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became Man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; He asceneded into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and Son He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 19, 2009 13:40:30 GMT -8
Chalcedonian Creed
We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.
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Post by Mark on Mar 22, 2009 5:47:38 GMT -8
A Jewish person will read these creeds and immediately surmise that the Christian is poly-theistic. How can you argue against that position without changing, adding to or taking away from the definitive qualities of theses statements?
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 22, 2009 9:00:19 GMT -8
A Jewish person will read these creeds and immediately surmise that the Christian is poly-theistic. How can you argue against that position without changing, adding to or taking away from the definitive qualities of theses statements? I'm posting so that you know that I read this, and that you can expect a more detailed response from me later. In order to answer your question, several things will need to happen (which I will attempt to do in a later post): 1.) define terms -- I will need to explain what Christians mean in these creeds in regard to the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. (And by this I mean defining what the statements in the creeds mean, specifically) 2.) Explanation of what the Trinity is -- #1 will lead into a discussion about the Trinity. Using the creeds as a starting point, I would need to bring evidence from Scripture and basically define what the trinitarian position is. 3.) Ultimately, I will need to show two things: that Christians believe in one God, but at the same time, we believe that that one God is triune. 4.) Then I will need to relate all this back to the statements in the creeds That's all I will be able to do -- it is up to others to draw their own conclusions on whether or not they think Christianity is polytheistic. It also depends on how open people are to actually hearing what we do believe. If someone is dead set on thinking that Christians are polytheistic, and they refuse to hear what we say, then no matter how I argue it, their minds will not change. Jews would not be the only ones to think that we are polytheistic. Muslims also accuse Christians of being polytheists, as do Unitarians (including Jehovah's Witnesses), and also Oneness Pentecostals. In fact, most cults of Christianity accuse us of being polytheistic. Much of this stems from a misrepresentation and misunderstanding of what the Trinity actually is. It may be good to contrast Trinitarian belief with Unitarians, Oneness Pentecostals, and tritheists. For instance -- Unitarians usually think that Trinitarians are either polytheists or Oneness Pentecostals. When debating them or having a discussion with unitarians, they usually bring up verses that show the distinction between the Father and Son. Jehovah's Witnesses do this when they attempt to "disprove" the Trinity. This happens because when talking with Unitarians, Trinitarians tend to emphasize the unity within the Godhead -- and to prove that Jesus is the same God as the Father. When arguing against this point, Jehovah's Witnesses usually use the same arguments that Trinitarians would use with Oneness Pentecosals. Talking specifically about Jehovah's Witnesses (which are pretty much modern day followers of Arius) -- one of Jehovah's Witnesses main beliefs is to deny the Trinity and claim that Jesus is a created thing. Therefore, Trinitarians will attempt to argue for Jesus' deity when talking with them. It was because of Arius and his followers that the Nicene Creed was written. Oneness Pentecostals tend to think that Trinitarians are either polyheists or Unitarians. They usually bring up verses that show that Jesus is the same God as the Father and Holy Spirit. This happens because when talking with Oneness Pentecostals, Trinitarians tend to emphasize the distinction of persons within the Godhead. When arguing against this point, Oneness Pentecostals usually use the same arguments that Trinitarians would use with Unitarians. Oneness Pentecosals argue that Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that instead of persons within the Godhead, "Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit" are just roles that Jesus has taken on throughout time. They deny the personhood of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Therefore, Trinitarians will attempt to show the distinction of Persons with them....and that Jesus isn't the Father or the Holy Spirit. I haven't really talked with tritheists enough to know what their arguments would be. Because Trinitarians would want to emphasize the unity within the Godhead with them, they would probably treat us as if we believed Oneness Pentecostalism. That's my guess. Like I said, I haven't actually had experience debating with tritheists. So then, the both the tri and the unity part will need to be explained. |
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 22, 2009 12:46:41 GMT -8
I shall try to give some sort of reply this week before I go home for my dentist appointment.
Please note, though, that the creeds are used by Christians to determine what is within the bounds of the Christian faith and what is not. While I can use the creeds as a starting off point, I will have to go to Scripture in order to back up what I say.
Once I have addressed the specific statements within the creed, and defined what the Trinity is, then I will also define what it is not by contrasting it with tritheism/polytheism, Unitarian beliefs (most likely with a focus on Jehovah's Witnesses), and Oneness Pentecostalism. In order to do this, I will need to argue against these three viewpoints (polytheism, unitarianism, and Oneness Pentecostalism), using Scripture.
Although I cannot force anyone to change their views, I can present my own views and why I believe what I believe. I have talked about the Trinity extensively with several Jehovah's Witnesses. I have also talked with a few Oneness Pentecostals. I have also talked very briefly with a couple of Mormons. In order to have a discussion with these individuals, I really had to know what I believe and stand solid on that. I have also read several Christian apologetic books, and I have also asked God for understanding about the subject of the Trinity.
I shall do my best to defend my belief in the Trinity.
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 22, 2009 14:17:27 GMT -8
A Jewish person will read these creeds and immediately surmise that the Christian is poly-theistic. How can you argue against that position without changing, adding to or taking away from the definitive qualities of theses statements? In the mean time, there is one other creed that I can post. The only problem I have with this creed is that it condemns everyone to hell that doesn't agree with it. However, I believe in what it says about God here, and it does accurately reflect what the Trinity is. This creed hopefully presents a more definite statement of the Trinity. It is only because of its condemning nature that I did not originally post it. But, at any rate....here it is: Athanasian CreedWhosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord. For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits. And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must think thus of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the quick and the dead. At His coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved. |
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Post by Mark on Mar 23, 2009 5:47:37 GMT -8
A creed is a summarized definition of what a particular group believes. If I read these things and say, "this is poly-theism," and you respond, "Well, that's really not what it means..." then it's not a very good creed. Yet, as you look into the doctrines of the anti-nicene "fathers", and what religions they came from before accepting the Jewish Messiah in their understanding of the Christian faith, a collective of deities reigning together (one created or birthed after and by the will of the greater gods) is not far-fetched. These guys that started what you understand to be the Christian faith, having abandoned the Jewishness (literally sanitized it away) returned to the paganism from which they originated. It's interesting how Galatians 4:9 is twisted to suggest that  is not relevant to the gentile ("how can you return to the weak and beggarly elements"). The Galatians were Gaulists in upper Messopatamia, not Jews. If they are "returning" to something, it's not Judaism, it's Paganism; yet, in the English rendering of these texts, the phrasing is manipulated to suggest that they were "reverting" to Jewish orthodoxy. It is not the case at all. Yet, at the same time, as we read the ancient creeds, understanding the theological climate in which the authors had ascended from, we easily see a reversion to paganistic thinking. |
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 23, 2009 6:45:42 GMT -8
A creed is a summarized definition of what a particular group believes. If I read these things and say, "this is poly-theism," and you respond, "Well, that's really not what it means..." then it's not a very good creed. Yet, as you look into the doctrines of the anti-nicene "fathers", and what religions they came from before accepting the Jewish Messiah in their understanding of the Christian faith, a collective of deities reigning together (one created or birthed after and by the will of the greater gods) is not far-fetched. These guys that started what you understand to be the Christian faith, having abandoned the Jewishness (literally sanitized it away) returned to the paganism from which they originated. It's interesting how Galatians 4:9 is twisted to suggest that is not relevant to the gentile ("how can you return to the weak and beggarly elements"). The Galatians were Gaulists in upper Messopatamia, not Jews. If they are "returning" to something, it's not Judaism, it's Paganism; yet, in the English rendering of these texts, the phrasing is manipulated to suggest that they were "reverting" to Jewish orthodoxy. It is not the case at all. Yet, at the same time, as we read the ancient creeds, understanding the theological climate in which the authors had ascended from, we easily see a reversion to paganistic thinking. The creeds do not in fact promote polytheism, though. I can understand how a person might read that into the creeds, but that is not what the creeds are teaching. If the creeds were teaching polytheism, then the Athanasian Creed wouldn't exist. Also, there would be no need for certain lines in the creeds. Also, if the creeds taught polytheism, then all Christians who adhere to these creeds would be polytheists today, and Christians would have no problem with polytheism. You probably think we are polytheists, though....so please give me a chance to explain. This is going to take some time. The Christians who wrote the creeds were not polytheists. If they were, there would be lines in the creeds that said, "we believe in three gods." That is not the case. One last thing, if the intended meaning of the creeds was polytheistic, then all Christians from since the writing of the creeds have interpreted them wrongly. No Christian writer that I know of has ever drawn the conclusion that the creeds are promoting polytheism. If polytheism is promoted in the creeds, it would have made logical sense for Christians throughout history to defend polytheism, using the creeds to help make their case. A polytheistic interpretation of these creeds appears to be foreign to Christianity. If Christians are polytheists, we would go around making statements like, "the gods command this," or "the gods did that...." We would talk about the persons in the Trinity in using phrases that contained "the gods..." Our worship would be "to the gods", and not God. If you listen to how Christians talk, we would be using completely different language. That is why it is important for there to be a discussion about this. |
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 23, 2009 8:12:12 GMT -8
The Apostles CreedI believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. The third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen. This, I think is the oldest Christian creed. As such, it is an affirmation of what Christians believe. There was no need for the writers of this creed to make a statement against polytheism because it was most likely understood by the people who confessed this creed that there was only one God. I can see how modern people might read this and draw the conclusion that it is talking about three different gods. I must once again point out that belief in polytheism is opposed to what is considered to be Christian orthodoxy. If this creed were really saying that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were three different gods, then every Christian who has ever interpreted it has misunderstood it. Now to break it down: I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Christians do not interpret this to mean that only the Father is God and Creator. Christians do not interpret "and in Jesus Christ, His only Son our Lord" as Jesus being a different god. This part: "He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead." Once again, this part does not interpreted by Christians to mean that Jesus is a second god. Rather, this statement shows that the Father and Jesus are distinct persons. The Father and the Son exist simultaneously. This can be seen by how the creed talks about both the Father and the Son. This part: "Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried." and "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy church," Also speak to the idea that Christians believe that the Holy Spirit exists simultaneously with the Father and Son. However, at no point does the creed suggest that these three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are three different gods. Yes, it can be affirmed by reading the creed that they are three persons who simultaneously exist, but there is nothing in the creed to lead a person to the belief that these are three different gods. An interpretation of it talking about three different gods would have to be read into the creed -- and while it is a legitimate conclusion to draw, that is not how any Christian understands the creed. |
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 23, 2009 8:47:06 GMT -8
Please note that the phrase in orange makes this the Western version of the creed. The Eastern version is exactly the same, but without the words in orange. The Nicene CreedWe believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became Man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; He asceneded into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and Son He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. The Nicene Creed is the next oldest -- First of all, please note how this creed begins: We believe in one GodThis should eliminate a polytheistic reading of this creed. Now.... "the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen." That is a statement of belief in the Father. "We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. "This part of the creed is meant to directly contradict Arius' teaching that Jesus was a created thing, and something other than God. The part that says, "one in Being with the Father" is a statement of Jesus' full deity. He and the Father are both God (not gods). Yes, there are two persons here -- the Father and Jesus. Jesus is not the Father, and He was eternally begotten of the Father. Jesus was not a created thing or a creation of God. It is a statement about how both the Father and Jesus are the same God (one in Being). We are not talking about two gods here. "Through Him all things were made." If God is the only Creator, then this is another statement about Jesus' deity. It means that Jesus participated in creating all things. " For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became Man." The idea that Jesus came down for our salvation also indicates His full deity. Now, you don't find the argument for this in the creeds, and this is one argument that I will have to go to Scripture for....but it is still evidence within the creed that Christians believe that Jesus is the same God as the Father. And also, the mention of the Holy Spirit in this part introduces the third person of the Trinity. Yes, once again He is distinguished from the Father and Jesus, but again, there is no reason to conclude that we believe He is a different god. "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end." More evidence for Jesus' full deity that I will need to go to Scripture to back it up. "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and Son He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets." Once again, I will have to go to Scripture to back this up....but the statement that the Holy Spirit is the giver of life also is proof that the Christians who wrote this creed thought of Him as the same God as the Father & Son. Also, if only God is worshiped and glorified, then the part that says "with the Father and Son He is worshiped and glorified" also is affirmation that He is God. Lastly, "He has spoken through the Prophets" -- again, that is evidence that a person will need to go back to Scripture to find, but it also shows who the Holy Spirit is. In short, from this creed a Christian interprets that there is only one God, but that there are three Persons who are Him. This is what the creed affirms. The creed does not say that there are three different gods. |
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 23, 2009 9:00:08 GMT -8
Chalcedonian CreedWe, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us. This creed was actually written after the Athanasian Creed. "our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man" and "consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead" This is meant to affirm that Christians are to believe that Jesus is fully (100%) God (not a god), and fully (100%) man. Only God is eternal (another thing I will have to go back to Scripture for), and if Jesus is "begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead" this means that He is God, though He is not the Father. He would have to be the same God as the Father, though...not a different god. "but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us" This creed specifically calls Jesus "God the Word." Since there is not more than one god, to call Jesus God means that the Christians who wrote this creed were saying that Jesus was the same God as the Father. John 1 calls preincarnate Jesus as the Word and the "only begotten God." This does not mean that we believe that Jesus is a different God than the Father. It simply means that we believe Him to be a different Person (not the Father), but still God. It also means that the Christians who wrote this creed considered there to be passages in the OT that referred to Jesus' deity, and that Jesus Himself taught this. I would have to go to Scripture to back all of this up. Christians have always interpreted these three creeds as being Trinitarian and not polytheistic. |
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 23, 2009 9:11:36 GMT -8
Athanasian Creed
"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance."
The Christians who wrote this creed were saying that we worship one God, but that that one God is triune. Although there are three persons, these persons are still the same God. It is just that Christians believe that there is both a plural unity or a united one.
"For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal."
Again, the 3 persons are still the same God.
"Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible."
This continues to say the same thing
"The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal."
"As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty."
"So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God."
"So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord."
"For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords."
"The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding."
"So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits."
"And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped."
"He therefore that will be saved must think thus of the Trinity."
"Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the quick and the dead. At His coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire."
"This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved."
Additional comments:
I will attempt to explain what Christians actually believe regarding the trinity the next time I post. In other words, how we define it.
If you are dead set on thinking that we are polytheists, I won't be able to convince you, but at least you can hopefully understand our position better.
One last thing -- no one has a perfect understanding of the Trinity. I do not claim to know all the details....in fact, all I can do is say that I believe in it, based on the evidence from Scripture itself. Even though I do not understand it, I can say that Scripture points to these things:
1.) There is only one God
2.) The Father is God
3.) Jesus is God
4.) The Holy Spirit is God
5.) Since there is only one God, but the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are each identified as God, then the only conclusion that I can come to is that the one God is triune, and that is just how He exists.
This is the conclusion that many Christians have come to throughout the years. (In fact, belief in the Trinity is considered to be an essential Christian belief, and anyone who denies it is said to be a heretic). This would mean that anyone who claims to be Christian and says that there is more than one god would be a heretic.
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is not relevant to the gentile ("how can you return to the weak and beggarly elements"). The Galatians were Gaulists in upper Messopatamia, not Jews. If they are "returning" to something, it's not Judaism, it's Paganism; yet, in the English rendering of these texts, the phrasing is manipulated to suggest that they were "reverting" to Jewish orthodoxy. It is not the case at all. Yet, at the same time, as we read the ancient creeds, understanding the theological climate in which the authors had ascended from, we easily see a reversion to paganistic thinking.
