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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 23, 2009 9:29:20 GMT -8
A creed is a summarized definition of what a particular group believes. If I read these things and say, "this is poly-theism," and you respond, "Well, that's really not what it means..." then it's not a very good creed. Yet, as you look into the doctrines of the anti-nicene "fathers", and what religions they came from before accepting the Jewish Messiah in their understanding of the Christian faith, a collective of deities reigning together (one created or birthed after and by the will of the greater gods) is not far-fetched. These guys that started what you understand to be the Christian faith, having abandoned the Jewishness (literally sanitized it away) returned to the paganism from which they originated. In a couple of the creeds that I quoted from, the Christians who wrote the creeds did NOT think of Jesus to be created or birthed after and by the will of any "greater gods." The trinity is not a collective of deities reigning together because Christians affirm that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are ONE GOD.The creeds also state that Jesus was begotten, and not made or created. Christians did not base belief on the trinity off of pagan beliefs. The basis for belief in the Trinity is found within Scripture itself. Christians get the belief from Scripture. |
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Post by Mark on Mar 23, 2009 11:28:52 GMT -8
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 23, 2009 11:44:10 GMT -8
I briefly looked at the first website.... I found this at the bottom of the page: Home | Site Map | Religious Doctorate Degrees | Become An Ordained Minister | Practitioners Directory | Products & Services | Bookshop | Esoteric Mystery School | Homestudy Courses | Esoteric Marketplace Mary Magdalene | Knights Templar | Divine Feminine | Contact Us | Esoteric Christianity Blog All material on this Website is Copyrighted © 1999 - 2009 by the Esoteric Interfaith Church, Inc..All rights reserved. Reproduction without written permission is prohibited. The website claims a lot of things, but it has nothing to back up its statements with. The website actually seems to be promoting Gnosticism (or at the very least, it spoke about gnosticism positively). It seems to be a website that is seeking to find the commonalities between different religious or spiritual beliefs. The entire purpose of saying that Christianity has pagan roots seems to be to promote the idea of fusing all religions, or to prove that Christianity is pagan in order to give credibility to paganism. The arguments it made about Christianity....Horus, etc. is ridiculous. It is actually suggesting that everything in Christianity came from pagan myths. I've seen these types of arguments before. These are all empty claims. Refuting these arguments would be another topic. I took a look at some of the other links on the site, and it is very, very clear to me that what this "church" is promoting is heresy. It even has its own "religious doctorate" degree. I cannot take this website seriously. |
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 23, 2009 11:53:42 GMT -8
The second website is almost as bad as the first..... basically the website says that basically everything about the church is pagan. This is all missing the point of what the church is about. The church isn't about paganism and pagan symbols. Rather, we are supposed to be focused on God and worship of Him. Focusing on supposed "pagan origins" of everything (from the way people hold their hands in prayer, to the clothes that pastors wear, to the concept of a church choir, etc) actually is focusing on the wrong things. The focus of pagan accusations actually causes people to not focus on God. The point of worship is to glorify God. I really do not wish to spend time discussing these supposed pagan origins of everything. |
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Sanil
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Post by Sanil on Mar 23, 2009 11:57:58 GMT -8
The creeds also state that Jesus was begotten, and not made or created. I think this will probably be my only question on this thread... According to dictionary.com - Begotten links to beget. Beget = "1. (esp. of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring). 2. to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power." How can something be begotten and yet not made or created? How can that begotten being be eternal and equal with God? |
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 23, 2009 12:14:35 GMT -8
The creeds also state that Jesus was begotten, and not made or created. I think this will probably be my only question on this thread... According to dictionary.com - Begotten links to beget. Beget = "1. (esp. of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring). 2. to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power." How can something be begotten and yet not made or created? How can that begotten being be eternal and equal with God? I don't know how to answer that, as I don't know how to explain Jesus being begotten by the Father. All I know is what John 1:14, John 1:18, and John 3:16 say. Also see Hebrews 1:5 5For to which of the angels did He ever say, "Y OU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"? And again, " I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"? The first part of Hebrews 1:5 is quoting Psalm 2:7. 7"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ' You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You. This is further argument for the Trinity because it shows that there is a conversation between the Father and the preincarnate Jesus. It is this (what is said in John 1, John 3, Hebrews, 1, and Psalm 2 that is being affirmed in the creeds.) Also, we know that both Jesus and the Father are God. Jesus is eternal because He is God. I also know what C.S. Lewis said about it -- and that is that to beget something simply means to become the father of it. It does not mean that something needs to be necessarily created or made. o |
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Post by Mark on Mar 23, 2009 14:44:21 GMT -8
So, here's what I see. The creeds that you say that you believe look like paganism to me. You say that they are not, that you believe something else; but the theologies that they describe line up with pagan theology more than biblical theology.
Do you celebrate Easter? Easter is a pagan goddess. The celebrations of all of your Christian holidays (with the possible acception of Christmas which establishes many of its customs on teaching biblical concepts) are a reproduction of paganism with the insertion of Christian justifications for the practice.
This is not to suggest that we deny the deity of the Messiah. You're right that He declared Himself to be God and allowed Himself to be worshipped as such. However, the creeds that you are promoting don't make any convincing attempt to separate from the pagan ideas of multilple deities from the singularity of Adonai.
The only thing that these creeds attempt to validate is the trinity. While we believe that the Holy Spirit, the Father and the Son are all manifestations of Adonai; it suggests that He is limited to these three manifestations: that man has a conclusive understanding of God.
Man isn't original. He can't come up with anything on his own. Yet, where he has denied the Hebraic context and origins of the faith in the Messiah, he has replaced them with paganism.
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 23, 2009 17:37:22 GMT -8
So, here's what I see. The creeds that you say that you believe look like paganism to me. You say that they are not, that you believe something else; but the theologies that they describe line up with pagan theology more than biblical theology. I can back up everything that is said in the creeds with Scripture. First, I would like to finish doing that with the Trinity. Then I can move on to other things like Jesus' virgin birth, His bodily resurrection, etc. It's impossible for me to address everything at once. If the Trinity looks like paganism to you...fine...but at least let me explain what it is without accusing me of being a pagan and posting ridiculous websites. Look, I'm sorry for getting angry about this. I just found it somewhat insulting that while we were talking about the Christian creeds, and specifically the Trinity....and I attempted to explain what my perspective as a Christian was.....you posted websites that were meant at attacking all of Christianity,, calling the entire faith pagan. I found that slightly disrespectful. If you would like me to address everything that you posted on those websites, I can do so, but I would like to do it in a separate thread. Yes, I celebrate Easter. Although the holiday might derive its name from a pagan goddess, that is not who Christians worship. When we celebrate Easter, we are celebrating Jesus' bodily resurrection, which is what all of Christianity stands on. We proclaim that although Jesus died on the cross, He rose from the dead. Jesus' bodily resurrection is scriptural, and if you need me to, I can find verses that proclaim it. It is by Jesus' bodily resurrection that the Christian faith either stands or falls. 1CO 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.1CO 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. If you really want to get into it, I would be glad to post past sermons that a certain pastor who was raised Jewish and became Christian preaches at Easter time. The celebration of Jesus' bodily resurrection is Scriptural, and it is biblical. The only Christian holidays that are made a big deal of in the church that I go to are Christmas and Easter. If you believe in Jesus' deity than why did you accuse me and all other Christians of being pagan in our belief of the Trinity? Why did you accuse us of being polytheists? The creeds were written in response to certain heresies that were occurring in the Christian world. They were not meant to be apologetic pieces against all errors possible. Once again, no Christian reads the creeds and draws the conclusion that we are polytheists or that we should be. Also, everything in the creeds can be checked by going back to Scripture. You have to know something about Scripture in order to have an understanding about what the creeds are saying. Otherwise, as with anything else, a person can totally misunderstand what is being said. The trinity isn't the only thing that the creeds attempt to validate. I was just focusing on the trinity because you made the comment about us being polytheists. The trinity IS a main issue in the creeds, though, since the creeds were meant to define what was and what was not Christian belief....and this tended to be in reaction to the subject of heresies about Jesus. The creeds also talk about other things. What I can say is that the creeds simply affirm what Scripture does. I don't think the creeds are saying that people know EVERYTHING there is to know about God. However, I see the creeds as affirming what is already revealed in Scripture. If you talk with most Christians, they will acknowledge that Christianity came out of Judaism. They will acknowledge that Jesus, most of the writers of the New Testament, all of Jesus' disciples, many of the apostles, and many of the first Christians were Jewish. That same pastor who I referred to earlier (the one who grew up Jewish), he says that Christianity is Jewish. I wish that there had been no break between Judaism and Christianity, but unfortunately, there was a break. Now Christianity and Judaism have almost nothing in common, literally. Both Christianity and Judaism have gone off in different directions so that there is almost nothing recognizable between the two religions. None of us can go back in time and change history. And there are people out there who would also claim that Judaism is pagan too. For some reason, people like saying that both Christianity and Judaism are pagan, so that they can deny the real God. The beliefs of both Christianity and Judaism are constantly attacked by those who want people to be "more open minded" and pagan in their thinking. In order to gain legitimacy, they try to claim that everything in both Judaism and Christianity comes from pagan religions. Now, this is not to say that there were not pagan influences that got into the church. Certainly some of the Roman Catholic Saints were once the names of pagan gods and goddesses. Certainly some of the feasts for these saints were pagan holidays. Certainly some of the Roman Catholic practices have a pagan basis. And although I disagree with certain Roman Catholic doctrine and practices, I do not think that most Roman Catholics are pagans. As I said before, I'm not Roman Catholic, so please do not attack all of Christianity based on certain practices of the Roman Catholic church. I think that it is important to examine these questions before you accuse anyone of being pagan: 1.) Who/what do they worship? 2.) Who/what do they glorify? If it is the God of the Bible, then how can they be considered pagan? |
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 23, 2009 18:41:21 GMT -8
Taking parts not specifically dealing with an argument for the Trinity...the parts that have to do with an argument for the Trinity will be dealt with separately.
See Matthew 1:20
20But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 1:18
18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
Luke 1:29-38
29But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was.30The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. 31"And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.32"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."
34Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"
35The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
36"And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month.37"For nothing will be impossible with God."
38And Mary said, "Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.
Isaiah 7:14
14"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.
Matthew 1:18-25
Luke 1:26-27
6Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth,27to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Luke 1:34
Mark 15:15
15Wishing to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas for them, and after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him over to be crucified.
Matthew 27:27-61
Mark 15:16-41
Luke 23:23-56
John 19:19-42
Ephesians 4:9-10
1 Peter 3:19-20
Matthew 16:21
Matthew 17:23
Matthew 20:19
Matthew 27:64
Luke 9:22
Luke 18:33
Luke 24:7
Luke 24:19-27
Luke 24:46
and many other verses
Acts 1:7-11
9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.
11They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
Matthew 24 - 25
and so many other passages
many passages talk about the church, and many passages talk about those who believe in Jesus.
The word "saints" here refers to all believers in Jesus, both those who are living and those who have died
Romans 1:1-8:1
and so many other passages
1 Corinthians 15:12-23
Matthew 25:46
John 3:15-16
John 3:36
John 4:14
John 5:24
John 6:40
and many other verses
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 23, 2009 18:50:32 GMT -8
From the Nicene Creed (I'm only responding to the parts that I didn't cover in the Apostles Creed)
John 3:13-16
and many other passages
Isaiah 9:6-7
6For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.
Daniel 7:13-14
13"I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14"And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 23, 2009 19:09:50 GMT -8
one more thing...the term "catholic" in the creeds means "universal" and is not referring to just the Roman Catholic church.
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Post by Mark on Mar 24, 2009 3:34:54 GMT -8
I think your two questions hit the nail on the head, "Who do they worship?" And "Who/What do they glorify?"
If Messiah Yeshua or Paul or any of the biblical authors were to walk into town seeking biblical fellowship, they would never consider Church because they understood Sabbath to be the day of gathering for worship. They would see the listings describing the Trinity according to the creeds you have listed and see them as a continuation of poly-theistic paganism. If they were to visit a congregation, they would see the mode of worship patterned after a Greek structure of education or performance, not what they understood to be biblical worship as was conducted in the synagogues. If invited to a holiday, such as Easter, they would be surprised to find the story of the cricifiction and resurrectionbecause all the practices with egg hunts, spring dresses, cholocate bunnies and Sunday hams to be celebrating druidism.
The question is not who do they say that they worship. You can write BMW on the front of my Chevy Cavalier but that doesn't make it so.
By the way, not all of Christianity endorses the creeds that you have listed. In fact, they are becoming less and less publicly appreciated for several reasons.
Messiah said to meet the needs of the poor. Howe much does your Church give to benevolence? The national average is less than 2% (it falls under the catagory of miscelaneous). Who is the Church glorifying? In most cases, my experience is that it uses the Messiah as a platform to glorify itself.
Please don't take this as a personal attack. I don't know you. I don't know where you attend. I also know a good many folk who go to Church on Sunday and are sincerely learning to walk in obedience to God. What I'm trying to demonstrate to you is that just because one opens his Bible and says the name Jesus, doesn't make him a follower of Christ.
Overwhelmingly, Christianity has chosen what is comfortable and familiar which they have brought with them from gentile pagan sources and and dismissed the culture and context, history and tradition, in which the Bible itself was cultivated and our Messiah was defined.
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 24, 2009 4:45:37 GMT -8
I think your two questions hit the nail on the head, "Who do they worship?" And "Who/What do they glorify?" If Messiah Yeshua or Paul or any of the biblical authors were to walk into town seeking biblical fellowship, they would never consider Church because they understood Sabbath to be the day of gathering for worship. They would see the listings describing the Trinity according to the creeds you have listed and see them as a continuation of poly-theistic paganism. Now you're back to claiming that our belief in the Trinity is polytheism and paganism. I'm not done with the topic of the trinity in this thread...and I will show that we truly do worship one God, and that that one God is triune. Worship has to do with meeting with God and surrendering to Him...and truly seeking to give all that we are to Him. It has nothing to do with the style of the worship music (whether there is a choir or a band or whether the music is contemporary or hymns). The point is where people's hearts are. That is what God is after. Okay, that is it....I am going to post the sermons that several pastors have preached about Easter. The Christian holiday of Easter has nothing to do with secular stuff. While some churches have Easter egg hunts for children and whatnot, that is not what Easter is about. That is not what happens on Easter Sunday at church. No parent is forced to do an Easter egg hunt. Spring dresses.....that is just culture. It is not mandated by any church. Many people choose to wear nice dresses for Easter because they want to. This is not preached from the pulpit. Chocolate bunnies have nothing to do with the Christian celebration of Easter either. These are things that candy stores make because they know that people will buy them. But a lot of people celebrate Easter in a secular way. And yes....there are also those who celebrate it as a pagan holiday. Some neo-pagans (people who identify themselves as pagan and worship nature) do celebrate it....but what they are celebrating is something completely different from what Christians celebrate. Easter for the Christian is only about Jesus Christ. The Easter Bunny and all that is just secular junk that plays no part in our Easter services. I know some Christian parents who do not do egg hunts or try to get their kids to believe in the Easter bunny. In other words, just because someone celebrates Easter does not mean that they HAVE to embrace all of the secular and/or pagan practices. I think that for most people egg hunts are more secular now than pagan, as people just do these things for fun. The neo-pagans who would do this WOULD be the ones who would be pagan in their celebration of Easter....but again, their stuff has nothing to do with Jesus. As for Sunday hams, this is something that individual families would decide to do. None of the things that you mentioned are essential to the Christian's celebration of Easter. The only thing that is essential is the celebration of Jesus' bodily resurrection. And the Easter season isn't just about the bodily resurrection. It's a time of reflecting on the entire passion events. Palm Sunday and everything that led up to Jesus' crucifixion. Then, on Easter Sunday we celebrate Jesus' bodily resurrection. That is true. Yes, I know that there are certain churches and Christians that have started to deny everything in the creeds. This doesn't change the fact that these Christians would be considered to be outside of Christian orthodoxy by theologically conservative Christians. In many ways, it is almost as if we are going back to how things were before any of the creeds were written....when there were no boundaries to determine what was and what was not Christian. We're seeing many of the same beliefs come back that were considered heresy according to the creeds. There are many people who would identify as Christian who deny every single thing in the creeds -- they deny the Trinity, deny Jesus' deity, deny Jesus' bodily resurrection, deny the substitutionary atonement, deny Jesus' second coming, etc. It's politically incorrect to call anyone a heretic these days.... In fact, it is politically incorrect to claim that Jesus is the only way. We live in an age of tolerance and openness to all viewpoints. To hold to these creeds is to be in violation of post modernism. Fewer and fewer churches are teaching the gospel. Instead, they are teaching people how to party with Jesus, how to be entertained, how to use God like a vending machine to get what they want in life, etc. According to society's definition of Christian (meaning that anyone is Christian as long as they identify themselves as such), I'm probably in a very small minority. I would be considered theologically conservative because I do hold to the creeds and to the beliefs that are in them. Others would think that I"m not with it...that I"m not with the times. I really don't care. I will hold to the gospel message no matter what....even if I become the only person in the world to still hold to it. It depends on whether you are talking about the specific church that I'm still technically a member of, or whether it is the church that I identify with and have been attending for almost 4 years now. The church I grew up in has some funds that it regularly gives to. It also has some programs within the church that are intended to reach out the the community. The denomination that it is a part of supports a fund to reach out to disaster victims. It also has other missions programs, to help with the health and care of people in third world countries. It also has missionaries to other countries. It also has special funds for people specifically in the community. The denomination/association of churches that I've been attending the past 4 years also has some funds and such to reach out to worldwide missions projects. The one that I go to when I'm at home is fairly small. It has a couple of ministries to people who need stuff. They also fund programs that affect those in the community that the church is located in. I haven't been there for most of this year because I've been at school....so I'm really not sure what they are specifically doing now. The church that I've been attending while at school is also very small. It was just started four years ago (it was a church plant from another church). However, that church is starting a food pantry, and it collects food, and then it passes them out to poor people in the area. It also just recently started a couple of service projects. We're having a day of outreach every month in which we do something for other people -- last time we went to visit residents in nursing homes (and no, these were not members of the church that we were visiting), and the other project was for people to pass out some of the food we had collected and pray for the people. This is just a starting place for what that specific church wants to do. The other church that I've been to that is in this denomination/association is huge. It has about 7,000 members. That church has a LOT of ministry programs. I don't even know all of them. I do know that they reach out to children and also to un-wed pregnant women. They collect stuff to give to them, they show them love, support them, just basically be there for them. They do a lot of stuff, and they can because of how big the church is. They are encouraged at that church to serve. I agree with you on that. And thank you for not making assumptions about me, and condemning me for those assumptions.  But Christianity itself also has a tradition -- it has the Bible and the creeds, and we do have a specific way that the creeds are supposed to be interpreted in. To insert into them pagan meanings, and say that they don't mean what the Scriptures teach....and to claim that we were worshiping multiple gods and whatnot is not consistent with Christian tradition and Christian interpretation of its own creeds and beliefs. |
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 24, 2009 4:58:18 GMT -8
Here are links to Easter sermons. You may download them by clicking on the link. I don't have some of the Easter sermons by some of these pastors for last year's Easter. I can download them tomorrow or something and post the links to those. The reason I'm posting this is for people to see what Christians believe and celebrate in regard to Easter (or about the subject matter of Easter), and what is actually preached. Please note, these are the collections of several different pastors. The pastor that I was referring to earlier who was raised as a Jew is included in this list. Homecoming of the King, by Larry McWherter www.mediafire.com/?bduzzte5mkbThe Power of Easter, by Larry McWherter www.mediafire.com/?2mwgmy34dzqThe King Is Coming, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?1l9mktgznf4Does the Resurrection Matter, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?5ok5exgmjtmCalled to be a Servant - by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?29uzz4w1kdtJesus: The Suffering Servant of God - by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?79yhmzmmdyuPortrait of a Servant - by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?4mv4tgmr2y1Jesus: The Savior of the World - by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?40uwy7d22dyMeeting God in the Psalms, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?2pk0gidnn1jMeeting God In Our Weakness and Our Humanity based on Psalm 8, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?8ydsdcdmrn9Meeting God At the Cross based on Psalm 22, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?agk0mjyg1btMeeting Christ as King and High Priest based on Psalm 110, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?4bntuxemdthHomecoming of the King, by Larry McWherter www.mediafire.com/?bduzzte5mkbThe King Is Coming, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?1l9mktgznf4Does the Resurrection Matter, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?5ok5exgmjtmThe Power of Easter, by Larry McWherter www.mediafire.com/?2mwgmy34dzqJohn 21 - by Rick Provard www.mediafire.com/?7mhdldzy0cdHow the Holidays Can Help You to Worship God, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?tn9ziwza2htWhy Did Jesus Come Down?, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?t1j3xjlhmq6The Betrayal and Denial of Christ, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?mnst2zmtbihThe Jesus I Never Knew, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?jdyxjb9d3zzThe Trial of Christ, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?wxdfmlcxjgwRidicule and Grace at the Cross, by VanDopp www.mediafire.com/?3snzjyzlhnlThe Upside Down Kingdom of Christ, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?uxazidwyjtmWho Is Christ Risen For?, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?uycy8cz9ttbThe Upside Down Kingdom of Christ Part 2, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?wnfedfl1phlHow Easter Changes People's Lives, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?pyw4lz2dgydWhat A Difference A Word Can Make, by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?ewb9tnmyx3wSharing Your Faith According to SHAPE www.mediafire.com/?34gizdmznhy No Substitutes For Christ, by Larry McWherter www.mediafire.com/?axvpl2qik5aAnd I'm including this one too.....it's about money and it's good. It touches on the subject of what Christians should do with their money. Rich Nathan basically preached John Wesley's sermon on the same subject. Make As Much As You Can! Save As Much As You Can! Give As Much As You Can! by Rich Nathan www.mediafire.com/?2eddtcsx1mp |
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Post by youneverletgo on Mar 24, 2009 4:59:59 GMT -8
There's other sermons that I can post, if anyone is interested....but these are the ones that have to do with Easter and the Easter events, specifically. They are all mp3 files.
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is not relevant to the gentile ("how can you return to the weak and beggarly elements"). The Galatians were Gaulists in upper Messopatamia, not Jews. If they are "returning" to something, it's not Judaism, it's Paganism; yet, in the English rendering of these texts, the phrasing is manipulated to suggest that they were "reverting" to Jewish orthodoxy. It is not the case at all. Yet, at the same time, as we read the ancient creeds, understanding the theological climate in which the authors had ascended from, we easily see a reversion to paganistic thinking.
