Messiah Must be God incarnate

[azgdt5120]

To me that's what Yeshua is, he's more than just another Rabbi in the jewish history. He answered I AM when he was asked from the High priest of that time if he was the promised messiah. Did the majority of the jewish people from that time knew what the atributes of the promised messiah were?

[Chizuk Emunah]

I'm sorry Mark. I know that this is what christianity holds, but it is completely contradictory to Judaism. It is clearly avodah zara. Even the early church couldn't make up their mind about him until 325 CE.

C'mon, to say that it is recorded in the Tanakh that Mashiach must be G-d is quite a stretch. In fact, in every prophecy that alludes to the future Mashiach it is quite clear that he must be a man, physically descended from the line of David. Judaism believes that you cannot take a limitless G-d and bind him in the body of a man. To do so would be to contradict His very nature.

[David Ben Yosef]

I agree with Chizuk Emunah. I believe that much of the confusion concerning Yeshua being mistaken as HaShem in the flesh can be explained by his being filled with the Ruach of HaShem without measure:

(John 3:34 CJB)
because the one whom God sent speaks God's words. For God does not give him the Spirit in limited degree --

This is an extremely important thing to keep in mind. Someone speaking the very words of HaShem, while being completely filled with His Ruach, would no doubt be confused as being HaShem incarnated in the flesh (especially when we read of his works - after the fact). Yeshua himself said it wasn't he who did the works, but the Ruach of his Father which dwelt in Him. There are way too many texts that contradict the concept of Mashiakh being HaShem in the flesh, while the ones that seem to support such a notion must be allegorized, through the use of eisogesis, rather than exegesis.

[David Ben Yosef]

Jan 24, 2010 5:28:48 GMT -8 Mark said:

These establishing the divinity of Messiah is not simply a Constantine addition but was supported by Rabbi Yoshe the Galilean, Rabbi Iben Ezra and the compilers of Targums.

I would be most interested in reading this. Can you provide quotes in their entire context from the sources you stated? Or perhaps a link to them? Thanks.

[ruthseeker]

David ben Yosef and Mark: I believe some of what you are looking for can be found in the writings of Risto Santala, the Finnish missionary to Israel. His books can be read online here: www.kolumbus.fi/risto.santala/rsla/OT/index.html . Specifically, see the volume presented on that URL, chapters 3 and 8. (This is how I, personally, resolved many of my conflicts on the issue.)
Please excuse my lack of an introduction thus far; I am afraid that will have to wait until after Pesach.
Chag Kasher v'Sameach
Ruth

[lawrenceofisrael]

If messiah was God then what about these verses: Luke 18 verse 18-20 and John 20 verse 17. I´d appreciate any answer however please try not to bring up any interpretations or arguments which sole purpose is to defend the trinity.
But i´d be grateful for any persuasive and debateable argument.

[tonga]

Jan 24, 2010 16:22:41 GMT -8 David Ben Yosef said:

Jan 24, 2010 5:28:48 GMT -8 Mark said:

These establishing the divinity of Messiah is not simply a Constantine addition but was supported by Rabbi Yoshe the Galilean, Rabbi Iben Ezra and the compilers of Targums.

I would be most interested in reading this. Can you provide quotes in their entire context from the sources you stated? Or perhaps a link to them? Thanks.

Yes, I would like to see the exact quotes and references. I don't
think such a statement should be made without them as I
believe what ever source is being used is being misunderstood.

[zionlion]

What am I missing here?
I don't see the problem.

There are 3 supreme divine beings: The Father; The Son; and The Spirit.
The Father didn't send Himself for the atonement of Israel; He sent the Son.
Being that the Son is one of the 3 supreme divine beings, sometimes referred to as the "G-dhead", it could be said that Messiah is "G-d incarnate".

But it is the Son, at the direction of the Father, that makes atonement; not the Father.


Shabbat Shalom, everyone.

[David Ben Yosef]

Mar 19, 2010 2:50:55 GMT -8 ruthseeker said:

David ben Yosef and Mark: I believe some of what you are looking for can be found in the writings of Risto Santala, the Finnish missionary to Israel. His books can be read online here: www.kolumbus.fi/risto.santala/rsla/OT/index.html . Specifically, see the volume presented on that URL, chapters 3 and 8. (This is how I, personally, resolved many of my conflicts on the issue.)
Please excuse my lack of an introduction thus far; I am afraid that will have to wait until after Pesach.
Chag Kasher v'Sameach
Ruth

Thank you for the link, I'll be sure to check it out. However, I can no longer present my views on this topic [per the rules].


Shalom

[yosefavalos]

Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good? only the 'Father' is good." Yeshua said this when a man approached him and attempted to priase him highly and asked him "what must I do to enter the kingdom?" but Yeshua stopped him. He told the man to follow G-Ds commandments, that was all. Yeshua never asked to be praised or worshipped, infact he was against it, also he said that he had come so that we could be friends with the Father. In my view, Yeshua is clearly stating that he is NOT G-D, however, he knows and make it apparent that he was the Son of G-D, the one sent by him that all may be saved. in John chapter 1, it states that in the beginning the Word had already existed and was with G-D and the Word was G-D. many christians take this passage to mean that G-D is the word (Yeshua) and came to earth to sacrifice himself. But on the other side of it, John 3:16 clearly stated that G-D had sent his ONLY BEGOTTEN son, meaning that Yeshua is a part of G-D, same material and energy just like my own son is begotten of me, made of the same material and same exact DNA and genes. that is what the "the Word was with G-D and the Word was G-D" means. Atleast that is how I have come to understand it. Mathew 3:17 " And suddenly a voice came from heaven and said,'This is my Son in whom I am well pleased."

[messianicmama]

I love that this is here. I think for most Christians coming into Messianic judaism they are heist to question certain doctrines such as the deity of the Messiah. I love when people aren't afraid to tackle it!

I personally believe he is divine, but not Gd. I do not find anywhere in the Gospels or anywhere else in the Apostolic Writings where we are told exactly who Yeshua is, nor are we required to figure it out perfectly and believe it. He is the Messiah, the son of Gd, the firstborn of creation. Beyond that, I don't know. And I'm okay with not knowing.

[alon]

Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, in the likeness of ourselves … (Gen 1:26) The plural here can only refer to a plurality within the Godhead.

“And the LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech."” (Gen 6:6-7) The singular “Lord” is here followed by the plural “us.”

“Hear, O Israel, the Lord is One.” (Deut. 6:4) The meaning of the word “One”, echad in the original Hebrew text, implies “a composite unity.”

Then I heard the voice of Adonai saying, "Whom should I send? Who will go for us?" … (Isaiah 6:8) Note again the mix in this sentence of the singular and the plural as God speaks about Himself.

“… they grieved his Holy Spirit; so he became their enemy and himself fought against them. But then his people remembered the days of old, the days of Moshe: "Where is he who brought them up from the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put his Holy Spirit right there among them,” (Isaiah 63:10, 11) (Strong’s #7760 to put, to bring, to appoint, to call, to charge) This suggests that God has a Holy Spirit, who is a distinct entity who can be grieved, and who can reside among His people. The active verb is not to “project”, but to “put”, as in something separate and distinct.

“ … At that moment heaven was opened, he saw the Spirit of God coming down upon him like a dove, and a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; I am well pleased with him." (Mat 3:16, 17) Here we see all three members of the Trinity acting as completely separate entities at the same time and place, just as at the act of creation.

“T'oma answered him, "My Lord and my God!"” (John 20:28) Read in context, this passage shows that not only did Thomas call Jesus “God”, but Jesus and the others present approved of this as he was not corrected.

These are but a very few examples spanning scriptures tat point to a plurality in the Godhead. Do I understand all there is about this? NO! B of this I a certain, Yeshua is God, co-equal and coeternal with Adonai and the Ruach.

I'd also point out that the OP was never adequately refuted- Yeshua made clear claim to full deity when He said "I AM." The idea he was just filed with the Spirit doesn't hold water, as the Spirit of God could never lie. Further, He was at trial, so His testimony had to be true and about Him, an no one else.

Sometimes I think that Mesianics, in our zeal to correct the misconceptions foisted on us by mainstream Christianity, try to become to much like he Jews. Well, here's some good Jewish doctrine for us- only God can forgive sins. So if Yeshua wasn't God, we're better of accepting Judaism because I'm still waiting for my Messiah.

Yeshua, fully God, became man (to tell me He couldn't is to limit an infinite God- foolish on it's own merits), died for my sins and was raised again the third day. To believe anything else is not only wrong, but dangerously so.

Dan C

[messianicmama]

I don't think it's fair to take a complex and unexplained doctrine and tell people they are dangerously wrong if they don't see it your way. We're all here to learn ACS unlearn, as the case may be. I have heard opposing views using just as many Scripture references and just as theologically solid as your perspective. It is your duty to study and follow the evidence, but I would encourage you not to shut down those of us who want to question, challenge, discuss and even, reject traditional theology. We're allowed.

[alon]

Mar 21, 2013 12:34:28 GMT -8 messianicmama said:

I don't think it's fair to take a complex and unexplained doctrine and tell people they are dangerously wrong if they don't see it your way. We're all here to learn ACS unlearn, as the case may be. I have heard opposing views using just as many Scripture references and just as theologically solid as your perspective. It is your duty to study and follow the evidence, but I would encourage you not to shut down those of us who want to question, challenge, discuss and even, reject traditional theology. We're allowed.

I'm not trying to shut anyone down. I simply refuted the previouse views based on scripture and plain good sense.

Here's the crux of the issue: Yeshua was either God eternal, or He was a liar. He forgave sins, even before the crucifixion (Luke 5:20, 7:47-48). He declared He was the Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28). Throughout His life Yeshua made claims that only God could make. So He was either fully God, or the greatest con artist of all times, on a par with Muhammed.

I choose God, and my statement of that should be no less bold than that of Yeshua Himself.

Dan C

[messianicmama]

Obviously there are other alternatives to Gd, liar or insane.. I'm sorry that you think any of us would sit here and call ourselves messianic if we only thought the latter of the 3 options you gave. I believe that Yeshua is divine. He is preexistent. He is more than a prophet, more than an angel, more than a rabbi. I don't know if he is equal to Gd or if he is Gd. What I do know I'd that he was given the power to forgive sins, conquer death, to manipulate storms and to speak for the Father. He sits at the right hand of Adonai and intercedes for his followers. He was not a liar or a madman. Even though I don't understand his full identity in relation to Adonai, I believe he is who he said he was and that's good enough for me. And like you, I use Scripture and good sense to back my beliefs up. Hopefully we can agree to see things differently and not put each other down. We're all on this path together..