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Post by messianicmama on Jun 6, 2013 23:32:38 GMT -8
Tricky one for me. I don't think it's wrong inherently, but you know you're most likely going to be taught antinomianism, served unkosher food and expected to participate in Christmas, Ester etc. For me personally, I can't think of a reason why I would go. I can're trust their shortfall guidance, I mist likely won't learn much and- to be frank- I'm not sure that I believe the Spirit is in a body that rejects the law, shabbat, the holy days and replaces them with pagan and made up stuff. I'm not trying to sound callous, and I'm really speaking for myself. I knower plenty of Messianics who go to Sunday church and feel totally fine with IT. I would be inclined to maybe plug in with some sort of religious discussion/study group, but not somewhere I was being pressured into dumping the  . |
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Jun 7, 2013 13:20:34 GMT -8
I sympathize with Dan. I attend a Sabbath-keeping church which accepts the weekly Sabbath but rejects the yearly Sabbaths. These I often end up spending in study with just the wife and I. At least there are two of us!
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
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Post by Albedineity on Jun 8, 2013 20:48:52 GMT -8
I'm not sure if it is necessarily wrong or not. We have been to Sunday churches a few times within the past few years, and the people seem to become horrified when they find out that we believe that the law has not been done away with the way that they think it has. I don't really find encouragement at Sunday keeping churches, just mostly opposition. So I can associate some with what messianicmama said.
We have been to a sabbath keeping church and we have also been to a small messianic congregation (both of which are a long drive away from us), but in both we did not really feel encouragement for seeking scriptures like we hoped. It is only our family now that studies together on Shabbat. So I can somewhat understand Frank and Dan about how you both feel.
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Post by Micha'el on Jun 11, 2013 12:42:40 GMT -8
Shalom, Almost everyone came out from some form of religion/denomination before discovering the truth to live a /TaNaKh based life. I see many reasons why a person may choose to continue fellowshipping with their current/former denomination; mostly because there just isn’t anything within driving distance to choose from. When we started to attend a messianic congregation we continued to go to the non-denominational church we were already part of. I was active in a small men’s group that met once a week for bible study. I chose the topic of our final study before I ceased attending. It was the book of Galatians. I was young in my convictions but was able to come against some of the traditional falsely interpreted verses. My wife stopped attending long before I did. We have a wonderful ( believing) congregation that is very close to our home. There weren’t too many blatant anti-Semitic overtones, there were some pagan customs that were obvious, and so we agreed to stop attending due to the obvious conflicts in our desire to keep the . It just became clear to us that Adonai’s children were to behave as He instructed them to. I would never speak evil of a person who says they follow and also continues to fellowship with those who chose not to follow . Advice is cheap, so that is what I offer. Luke 12:51 says: Do you think that I have come to give shalom (peace) in the eretz (earth)? I tell you, no, but rather division. There will be divisions, how long can “people” stay together when there are issues that divide? Only Adonai knows. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. I will admit that we had it easy, we had a messianic congregation that was very close to us. Micha’el  |
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Post by alon on Jun 23, 2013 1:07:11 GMT -8
OK, this is sort of a weird one, but here goes ...
For the last 9 mo. I've been involved with a men's ministry class at the AoG church where I attend. It is set up as non/inter-denominational, so I have pretty well voiced my Messianic leanings and views. For the most part they have been well received, possibly even adjusting some peoples thinking.
There are 7 of us that completed the class, and I've seen God work in all our lives throughout the 9 mo. I also see the potential for this to work wonders in younger men who are just starting out in life. It presents a God that we never hear about. Read the 23rd Psalm, but through early Hebrew eyes, where a shepherd was viewed as a warrior and a prince. Was it an anomaly that David received all the training necessary to slay Goliath as he tended his flocks? It is true God was with him, but I'd suggest from early on when he sent beasts of prey to try and train the future warrior and king. In this light the Psalm has a whole different look.
Tonight at a banquet I was "commissioned" to teach the program (which I do intend to do). However the ceremony was full of "Crusader" symbolism which, being part of our heritage is how we in the west tend to view such things (think of some of those commercials for Marine Corps recruiting). This of course would be offensive to many Jewish people; not so much with others.
As a Messianic should I have refused to participate? Should I forget the program now that I've received my education because it might benefit a "Christian" church? I think not.
It is what is here, and where God has put me. I'd prefer to be putting my efforts into Messianic outreach, but frankly there is none here and, as my wife has pointed out to me only today, I am a details person, not a people person. People will come to me for training, as that is where my gift is; but they run like the devil his-self were after 'em if they think I'm approaching with an idea! Needless to say, I haven't been as successful at winning converts (0 so far!) as I have been at slowly changing people's perceptions, getting them to think contextually when they read the Bible.
Still havn't changed anyone's mind about Christmas though ...
Dan C
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Post by messianicmama on Jun 23, 2013 11:02:44 GMT -8
I think there's a difference between attending a church where you are respected and have an opportunity to influence others and going somewhere where you just sit in a pew, listening to their doctrine and get crazy looks from people. If you can make a difference, go for it! For us, we have small children who will be indoctrinated into non- , Greek christianity in a church. That's a big deal. And we have yet to be received warmly, so that's another thing. |
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Post by alon on Jun 23, 2013 15:02:42 GMT -8
... difference between attending a church where you are respected and have an opportunity to influence others and going somewhere where you just sit in a pew, listening to their doctrine ... Yeah, if I was just warming a pew I don't think I'd go there no matter what sign they put out front! Definitely it's different for everyone. And I agree with your reasoning- God, family then church, in that order. Your families well being comes first. Dan C |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 10:15:26 GMT -8
I chose the 3rd option (obviously, at this point, since it's the only one w/votes). I don't at the moment have Scripture to defend it, more that I don't know of Scripture against it. Not keeping the Sabbath would be a problem. But if you do that, I really don't see how going to a church and spending another day with other believers can be a bad thing, I have not seen Scripture suggesting that it would be. At the moment, I don't have anywhere to go on the Sabbath, so I keep it by myself, reading the Scripture and some emails on the weekly readings that I get from different groups, and then some time on forums like these. On Sunday, I go to church, talk to other believers, and learn from my teacher and pastor, and I get to spend time after church discussing what we learned with my mom and sister. This would not be possible for me otherwise, since they will shut me out if they think I am pushing observance, and therefore aren't interested in hearing anything I learn on the Sabbath. By attending church with them and taking part in their traditions and beliefs, I have an opening to let them see more of mine without appearing aggressive or arrogant. Should you not be pushing observance? If you believe this is righteousness you should tell your mom and sister. I stopped trying with mine because they aren't even churchgoers. Also i found years ago that the mainC as it get's called in this place will not welcome observant beliefs. Most of them aren't real devotees to the message brought by Yesua. Any mention that the Bible is not all Holy scripture is met with stonewall opposition. I didn't like the focus of the message in these places. They drew near with their lips, but their worship was generally made up of man made tradition. |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 10:20:27 GMT -8
No offense, but if the Levitical take on God's Law---not the Law itself---was in error before Jesus came, what other observation has been made in error? Personally, I believe God reveals His Law to any who diligently seek Him, and does not limit that revelation to those in the priesthood. You are very close to the Kingdom. To be fair i've not met many in flowing robes that were diligent in keeping or seeking the Law. |
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 10:58:43 GMT -8
OK, this is sort of a weird one, but here goes ... For the last 9 mo. I've been involved with a men's ministry class at the AoG church where I attend. It is set up as non/inter-denominational, so I have pretty well voiced my Messianic leanings and views. For the most part they have been well received, possibly even adjusting some peoples thinking. There are 7 of us that completed the class, and I've seen God work in all our lives throughout the 9 mo. I also see the potential for this to work wonders in younger men who are just starting out in life. It presents a God that we never hear about. Read the 23rd Psalm, but through early Hebrew eyes, where a shepherd was viewed as a warrior and a prince. Was it an anomaly that David received all the training necessary to slay Goliath as he tended his flocks? It is true God was with him, but I'd suggest from early on when he sent beasts of prey to try and train the future warrior and king. In this light the Psalm has a whole different look. Tonight at a banquet I was "commissioned" to teach the program (which I do intend to do). However the ceremony was full of "Crusader" symbolism which, being part of our heritage is how we in the west tend to view such things (think of some of those commercials for Marine Corps recruiting). This of course would be offensive to many Jewish people; not so much with others. As a Messianic should I have refused to participate? Should I forget the program now that I've received my education because it might benefit a "Christian" church? I think not. It is what is here, and where God has put me. I'd prefer to be putting my efforts into Messianic outreach, but frankly there is none here and, as my wife has pointed out to me only today, I am a details person, not a people person. People will come to me for training, as that is where my gift is; but they run like the devil his-self were after 'em if they think I'm approaching with an idea! Needless to say, I haven't been as successful at winning converts (0 so far!) as I have been at slowly changing people's perceptions, getting them to think contextually when they read the Bible. Still havn't changed anyone's mind about Christmas though ... Dan C Of course not, I still miss getting presents, and giving them, all children like that part of it. Are you teaching the ten words as core? |
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Post by alon on May 6, 2014 11:10:46 GMT -8
It is principles based, so while the Ten Commandments are acknowledged they are not the core of the course. Besides, I'm the only one there who keeps Shabbat so even if it were they'd all have one strike right off the bat.
Dan C
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Post by Questor on May 6, 2014 16:27:45 GMT -8
I chose the 3rd option (obviously, at this point, since it's the only one w/votes). I don't at the moment have Scripture to defend it, more that I don't know of Scripture against it. Not keeping the Sabbath would be a problem. But if you do that, I really don't see how going to a church and spending another day with other believers can be a bad thing, I have not seen Scripture suggesting that it would be. At the moment, I don't have anywhere to go on the Sabbath, so I keep it by myself, reading the Scripture and some emails on the weekly readings that I get from different groups, and then some time on forums like these. On Sunday, I go to church, talk to other believers, and learn from my teacher and pastor, and I get to spend time after church discussing what we learned with my mom and sister. This would not be possible for me otherwise, since they will shut me out if they think I am pushing observance, and therefore aren't interested in hearing anything I learn on the Sabbath. By attending church with them and taking part in their traditions and beliefs, I have an opening to let them see more of mine without appearing aggressive or arrogant. Should you not be pushing observance? If you believe this is righteousness you should tell your mom and sister. I stopped trying with mine because they aren't even churchgoers. Also i found years ago that the mainC as it get's called in this place will not welcome observant beliefs. Most of them aren't real devotees to the message brought by Yesua. Any mention that the Bible is not all Holy scripture is met with stonewall opposition. I didn't like the focus of the message in these places. They drew near with their lips, but their worship was generally made up of man made tradition.
I don't find those reasons all that good of an excuse for not beginning to learn and apply to their lives, but all my MainC friends not only believe, but trust in Yehoshua, and bear some fruit in their lives. Would they bear more fruit by being observant? Certainly, but because they are already doing somewhat well in their walk before haShem, they do not see the reasons...yet.
They are badly taught, but they learn more all the time, and since they all have an acquaintance with the Ruach, I explain what I have learned, what the Ruach has prompted me to do (Begin applying to my life) and pray for them to be drawn by the Ruach to do the same. Telling them they are not doing enough is a bit judgemental. The MainC friends that I have bear fruit as they follow the Brit Chadashah, and their walk sometimes exceeds my own shabby attempts to follow and Yehoshua's example in the Brit Chadashah. If they are doing better than I am without following , I truly hesitate to tell them to start doing what I am doing. I am grateful that they have begun to recognize Christmass as pagan, and are not eating anything that is forbidden in scripture. I think they would truly enjoy a real Sabbath rest, but they do see how to make their lives behave to begin that, and the Ruach has not pulled at them to begin as yet.
I do not go to their churches because I don't do well in crowds of people...not because I think I will not learn anything. When I become well enough to attend a church without exhausting myself, I will go there if the Ruach leads me there, and I will tell them what I have learned and show it to them in their Bibles if they let me, but telling them to do better in their observance of can only be done as the Ruach opens their eyes to the truth in the Brit Chadashah. Until they realize that Yehoshua was continually talking about obedience under , they will simply be offended.
Please recall that Yehoshua said to be as wily as snakes, but as meek as doves.
Matthew 10:16 (CJB)
16 “Pay attention! I am sending you out like sheep among wolves, so be as prudent as snakes and as harmless as doves. Teaching MainC Believer's who think they already know all there is to know is just as difficult as teaching Phaisees who think they know everything, and should be just as carefully done. |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2014 10:13:53 GMT -8
The problem is not that they think they know it all. The problem is that they think the Lord's grace is enough for their salvation. That they don't even have to so much as wipe their feet on the way into his house. I call that cheeky.
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