Is it wrong to attend a sunday church?

[Mark]

This question is skirted on many threads in this forum and opinions will vary great emotion. It's an important question that I think we should address head-on. Please use Scripture as your tool for defending your position; but I would like to know your experiences which bring you to your conclusion as well.

Thanks,

Mark

[Sanil]

I chose the 3rd option (obviously, at this point, since it's the only one w/votes). I don't at the moment have Scripture to defend it, more that I don't know of Scripture against it. Not keeping the Sabbath would be a problem. But if you do that, I really don't see how going to a church and spending another day with other believers can be a bad thing, I have not seen Scripture suggesting that it would be.

At the moment, I don't have anywhere to go on the Sabbath, so I keep it by myself, reading the Scripture and some emails on the weekly readings that I get from different groups, and then some time on forums like these. On Sunday, I go to church, talk to other believers, and learn from my teacher and pastor, and I get to spend time after church discussing what we learned with my mom and sister. This would not be possible for me otherwise, since they will shut me out if they think I am pushing observance, and therefore aren't interested in hearing anything I learn on the Sabbath. By attending church with them and taking part in their traditions and beliefs, I have an opening to let them see more of mine without appearing aggressive or arrogant.

[Nashdude]

I also chose the third option. As Jesus said, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. It is a day of rest for the man, and a day of regeneration for the relationship between man and God. It is a day set aside not as a hinderance to our everyday lives, but as a day of rejoicing in His love, and the salvation He has given us. Also, it should be noted that the disciples met on the first day of the week (Act 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2)---which were also seven days apart, and thus a sabbath

Truth be told, there's no way to truly know which day the original Sabbath even falls upon. As many times as calendars have been altered or destroyed, the original Sabbath might be on Tuesday! So I don't really think that the specific day (dusk Friday to dusk Saturday) is as important as the intent.

[Prodigal Girl]

Acts 20:7 describes an occasion, which happened to be the first day of the week (which started on our today's Saturday at sundown). It goes on to say that Paul was still speaking at midnight of that same day (again, it had to be our Saturday night, or it would not be called the first day of the week). Remember that the days of the week by the Jewish calendar go from sundown to sundown.
The church takes this scripture and uses it to teach that the early believers switched Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. However there is no indication within scripture itself that this is what happened; only Catholic church tradition which teaches this. Just because they happened to meet together after the Sabbath does not mean that they switched Sabbath days. On the contrary, there are several scriptures which indicate that they continued to celebrate the Biblical appointed times including the Sabbath, WITH the rest of the Jewish community.
One intent of the Sabbath in scripture, is that it is to be a day of holy convocation. That does not mean that you can not get together with believers to break bread on other days, as was done in Acts 20:7. But certainly scripturally speaking, it is expected on the 7th day that believers will congregate on that day.
Did they lose count, really? Yes, the calendar has been changed many times, but the 7th day has, in my opinion, never been lost.
For me, I have decided that I personally need to celebrate it on the same day that is accepted as Shabbat by Jews. It should never have been changed by the Catholic church to begin with. It was done for no good reason, in fact, for some VERY BAD REASONS. It was changed, we can change it back. Really, we can. It is a free country, no one will (today) physically persecute you in THIS COUNTRY if you change it back. Other countries, yes, you may and certain places will be very likely suffer some very bad repercussions. In the U.S., your church friends will just harass you verbally.
The church will teach you to be very loose with the Sabbath, and actually to break it. This can be easily seen by observing how church people DON'T keep it. Mostly, it is not thought or studied or taught about. If you do think or study or teach about it overly much (by the church's definition), you will have to hear about being legalistic/too "Jewish".
I Cor. 16:2 gives instruction for the collecting of money to send to the temple in Jerusalem, as was/is customary with Jewish diaspora communities. The natural time to do this, was on the first day of the week, AFTER Sabbath services. Money was not counted on the Sabbath, but it could be on the first day of the week (which, again, started on Saturday night after sundown).
Again, there is no support within scripture itself for believing that this verse, like the other one, means that the Sabbath was changed to Saturday by the early believers. That switch happened several centuries later, for other reasons. Did they meet and collect money on Saturday night and even into Sunday A.M.? Yes, they did. However that does not mean they broke the Law of Moses as well as many other scriptural instructions about the Sabbath.
The church even teaches that Yeshua broke the Sabbath.

[Nachshon]

May 30, 2008 5:43:58 GMT -8 Nashdude said:

I also chose the third option. As Jesus said, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. It is a day of rest for the man, and a day of regeneration for the relationship between man and God. It is a day set aside not as a hinderance to our everyday lives, but as a day of rejoicing in His love, and the salvation He has given us. Also, it should be noted that the disciples met on the first day of the week (Act 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2)---which were also seven days apart, and thus a sabbath

Truth be told, there's no way to truly know which day the original Sabbath even falls upon. As many times as calendars have been altered or destroyed, the original Sabbath might be on Tuesday! So I don't really think that the specific day (dusk Friday to dusk Saturday) is as important as the intent.

I beg to differ. While I have no opinion either way on whether or not it is permissible to attend a Christian church, I think not only that the day matters, but that we can know with certainty which day it is.
If I can prove the first, the second follows quite simply.
In the text of the (this was noted by Aaron Ben Elijah) "HaShabbath" is used to refer to the weekly sabbath. However, festival sabbaths were referred to as simply "Shabbath." The juxtaposition of "The Sabbath" and "A Sabbath" indicates that the Sabbath is a specific day.
It is also implicit in Shemoth 20 that Shabbath is a weekly anniversary (though, technically that's an inaccurate term, since it's not one annus later) of the creation. I think the text is quite clear that the day is important and specific.
I also contend that Paul is referring to calendrical disagreements, as there were at least three calendars in use at the time (as there are at least four that I know of now). His plea was to the people to get over petty differences, such as calendars.
Now, having firmly established the primacy and importance of the Shabbath Yom (as the Psalmist puts it) we can be certain that we know the proper day. It has been celebrated constantly at least since the time of the return. This was the time of prophets and judges who would have had the knowledge, gift, and ability to establish the Shabbath on the proper days. If it hadn't been lost, Ezra or Nehemiah would have known when it was. If it had, Habakkuk or Zecheriah would have been told.
We also know that this is the day R. Yeshu'a celebrated Shabbath on, since it has been kept constantly since then, and we have such evidences as the Spanish "Sabbado" to confirm it to us.

[Bob]

I believe it is important for us to commune with other Christians. The gentile church does have some major issues regarding observance but They are still believers in Yeshua (Jesus) and still praise his name.
It is important for us to continue to fellowship with other believers. We need the interaction during our daily walk and many times there are just not enough messianics around close by for us to have the needed support.
One problem I see with continuing to fellowship with non- observant Christians is a certain hostility to our beliefs. I find it harder and harder to fellowship with those who do not believe as we do. As Amos says "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" (Amos 3:3) This is a point I have been struggling with much lately

[Nashdude]

Jul 4, 2008 11:24:28 GMT -8 Bob said:

I believe it is important for us to commune with other Christians. The gentile church does have some major issues regarding observance but They are still believers in Yeshua (Jesus) and still praise his name.

I really appreciate this point of view, because it highlights the lower standing that the Law has to actual righteousness. As the Word says, to obey is better than sacrifice. To get it right the first time is better than to try making up for it, because righteous does not come by the Law---only the exposure of our UN-righteousness. Allow me to explain (insert standard Nash Disclaimer about a Gentile Christian's view of the Law hehe)...

Romans 13:1 -- Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

In this verse, Paul equates the rule of men with the rule of God, that the people in power are in power because God either allowed them or actually PAVED THE WAY for them. Either way, they rule because God rules.

Not only does he equate their rulership with His rulership, but he equates their laws with God's Law...

Romans 13:2 -- Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

This draws a fine picture of the Law's purpose for our lives, because although the laws of men can never truly be perfect, the application of those laws are the same. Their purpose is the same---to bring order to what would otherwise be chaos.

Which brings me to my point...

Romans 13:3-4 -- For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Boiled down, Paul is saying that the laws are meant to rule the unruly. Should you live RIGHTEOUSLY in society, the laws are basically INVISIBLE to you---still there, but without application.

Like a fence around your yard, the laws place boundaries around the territory of acceptable behavior. That which is inside those borders is legal, while that which is without is illegal. The fence is not the yard---it only divides what is your territory from what is not. We occupy the yard, not the fence.

This is where the really interesting stuff comes in. If God equates men's rulership with His OWN rulership (in application, if not in practice), then He similarly equates men's laws with His Law---right down to the purpose of it. Should you live righteously---or in a Christian's case, be covered by the righteousness of Jesus, loving God above all, and loving your neighbor as yourself---then the Law has no application for you. It's still there, but it is without power. Should you NOT live righteously---or not be covered by the righteousness of Christ---then the Law becomes the sword of Romans 13:4 by which God is revenged!

In short, the Law is the fence, and Christ is the yard we are called to occupy

Thus to return to Bob's point, Christians and Messianics have this common ground---that our righteousness is in Christ, and as such, the Law has no power over us. Living within Christ IS living within the bounds of the Law, thus we are saved from the sword of its penalty

Again, this is "a la Nash the Gentile"

[skeeterbugs]

I used to go to church but stopped because I got tired of always being told that I was wrong and some belivers actually told me to disobey Hashem. I got tired of always hearing paul says were not under the law. I do celebrate Shabbos every week at home

[Nashdude]

Aug 19, 2008 21:32:33 GMT -8 skeeterbugs said:

I used to go to church but stopped because I got tired of always being told that I was wrong and some belivers actually told me to disobey Hashem. I got tired of always hearing paul says were not under the law. I do celebrate Shabbos every week at home

I can understand that. Nobody wants to be told their wrong, but the fact of the matter is that no matter what you do, SOMEBODY will tell you you're wrong, whether you go on the Sabbath or Sunday, whether you cover your head or no, whether you read from the KVJ or the HRV or NIV or whatever.

That said, is not going AT ALL really the answer? You have to remember that the primary purpose of church is not the learn how to walk with God. That is YOUR responsibility to learn, not the church's responsibility to teach. You're SOLELY responsible for fostering and tending your relationship with the Lord.

The church's role, on the other hand, is to SUPPORT you in your walk. You've heard that wise men surround themselves with wise men? That's kinda what church does. It provides a fellowship of believers in various stages of spiritual growth---both to help you in your walk, and to BE helped BY you!

Example. You're a powerful prayer warrior. You're well-studied in how New Testament Grace links up with Old Testament Law. But you're weak-willed, and easily fall to temptation. In such a case, the church might provide you much-needed accountability---someone to call on in times of temptation, or perhaps someone to "answer to" in times of failure.

Another example. When you accepted Christ's Lordship over your life, He miraculously healed you of a long-standing addiction. In your church, you find someone with a similar addiction. He does believes in God's power to conquer this addiction, but needs someone to "help his unbelief". He only has the strength to lean on God so far, and needs someone to help keep him where he knows he's supposed to be. Having been where he is now, perhaps God wants to use your experience to draw this fellow closer to Him.

Yet another example. You feel led by God to be a missionary in China, but you don't have the resources to do so. A local church feels led to send a missionary to China, but can't seem to find the right person for the job. If you're plugged into that church, BOTH callings---that to be sent, and that to send---could be answered, and God would be glorified in the obedience of His children.

No matter how you slice it, the hypocracy that we find in church does not negate the benefits of having such a gathering to use and be useful in.

Hebrews 10:24-25 -- And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

No matter how strong you are in Christ, there is always someone who can be of help in your walk. No matter how weak you are in Christ, there is always someone you can be a help to.

[skeeterbugs]

I can understand what you are saying but But If I were to fellowship with like believers then I would be attending a synagoue not a church. our town does not have a synagogue. I do not exactly want to attend a church that preaches replacement theology.

[vegangirl]

I know of many people that don't attend a synagogue and still attend church ... and still keep kosher and keep Sabbath Saturday..
Theres a lot of theology in synagogue also and a lot don't believe in the same things just like the christian churches.

I believe a safe place to be is in a home fellowship group ...

This is what I have been looking for.. No big or small organizations you have to put up with...

I believe home groups are much more real and true..

peace&love...
bri'gette...

[Nashdude]

Aug 22, 2008 14:35:58 GMT -8 skeeterbugs said:

I can understand what you are saying but But If I were to fellowship with like believers then I would be attending a synagoue not a church. our town does not have a synagogue. I do not exactly want to attend a church that preaches replacement theology.

"Like believers" is relative, really. After all, from eternity past to eternity future, there is only one Skeeterbugs, just like there is only one Nashdude. We're all individuals, and all fall short of what God demands of us. As such, our beliefs, though perhaps very close together, will inevitably differ in some respect or another. You may find yourself thinking ALMOST exactly like someone else, but you'll never find someone COMPLETELY like-minded.

So unless you're a carbon copy of someone else, there'll always be a difference somewhere, and chances are you'll think that you're right and the other guy is wrong. That's just who we are as a fallen creation. The trick is to realize and accept that there WILL be differences---as our individual walks with Christ ARE individual---but to limit these differences to the non-essentials. It's when you start compromising the vital stuff---Jesus' identity, His nature as both man and God, His sacrifice upon the Cross, His resurrection, His authority from Creation to Eternity Future (ya know, stuff that salvation is impossible without )---that you run into problems.

I'm not suggesting that you find just any ol' assembly to attend, and certainly not one that is contrary to the vital stuff. But if you're holding out for the PERFECT assembly, you'll never find it. If such were possible, it would indicate perfect attenders, which would mean that Christ would never have had to die. As I said, impossible.

At the very least, your joining would mess up the whole works---your IMperfection mixing with their perfection. A little leaven, and all that...

Use your best judgment, surely. Pray and seek God diligently---you never know when He might suggest something to you that you would never have considered on your own. But whatever you do, don't just sit at the house, hiding your light for want of a "worthy" place to shine it.

No synagogue? Find something similar. Nothing similar? Find a church that at least believes the complete authority of the scriptures, and the complete nature of Christ. Whatever you do, get plugged in SOMEWHERE so that Christ can use you. A less-than-perfectly-scriptural group of authentic believers is far better than attempting to go it alone.

And BTW... good post, VeganGirl

[vegangirl]

Nashdude: or any one

I know all to well about not finding the PERFECT assembly, I have been to about 25 places where believer's attend. I wanted every one to be perfect and be friendly and reach out to me the first day well it don't work like this. It takes time..

I have even said stuff to people because they may not have been so friendly, but I have to do my part as well and get to know people before I reach out.. I am the type to hug u when I first meet some one lol.. kinda crazy I know but I just love people so much..

God had a reason why I attended all these different pleaces I believe Adoni wanted me to see that even believers make mistakes, and also to see my own mistakes because after I was baptized I was thinking I am perfect /Not even CLOSE!!!
I still have not found a home place, I know when I do it will be where God wants my family an I.

Peace&Love all

[Nashdude]

Aug 23, 2008 6:47:51 GMT -8 @vegangirl said:

I still have not found a home place, I know when I do it will be where God wants my family an I.

Amen there!

As you may know, I'm actually a Christian, not a Messianic. However, I'm nondenominational---in reality, not in affiliation---because no matter what church I go to, I always find something in the denomination that I do not agree with. I've come to accept that, because as I told Skeeter, there has never been nor ever will be another Nashdude. As such, how I walk with God is ENTIRELY UNIQUE.

My life experiences, my intelligence level, my ability to think and feel abstractly---everything about me is unique. It's what makes me Nashdude. We're ALL unique that way! As such, how I approach God is unique as well, and He approaches me in a way that is entirely unique to me---not so much in revelation but in relationship. So what God has blessed me in the way of understanding is completely tailored to who I am at this point---not who I was yesterday, or who I will be tomorrow.

All this really came to the forefront of my attention when searching for "the perfect church" here in Dothan. I'd been going to Assembly of God churches for a while, and was comfortable with their doctrines and charismatic practices. I didn't always agree with them, but I was comfortable with them. So I looked into AoG here in Dothan, and it was as spiritually DEAD as any church as I'd ever seen! Oh sure, they had all the AoG "stuff" that you'd expect, but I didn't feel the movement of God there... not the way I had in my previous church.

So I looked around. Nondenominational churches. Pentacostal churches. Something that I can only call a "neo-methodist" church. I was even homing in on a local Messianic population when I decided to try a Baptist church. I'd attended Baptist churches before, and while they seemed a little reserved to me, I figured that it couldn't hurt.

The moment I stepped into the foyer---before meeting the pastor or even any of the congregants---it felt as if I had come home.

When you truly seek God, and seek Him WHEREVER He may be found, He'll lead you exactly where He wants you to be... and make sure you KNOW it!

Perhaps you'll stay there for the rest of your life. Perhaps God will impress upon your heart to leave that "home" congregation after a while, for one reason or another. Perhaps "home" will one day just not be "home" to you anymore. Perhaps... perhaps... perhaps... To be quite blunt, all of that is beside the point. "Perhaps" is tomorrow. God wants our obedience TODAY, and if today He wants me in a Baptist church, it's none of my concern right now where He'll want me tomorrow. He'll let me know.

[Mark]

It is arguable that Sunday worship is denial of God's covenant with the people Israel, that by itself, when not part of a Sabbath keeping community or that is part of a comunity that does not regardthe Sabbath day as holy, it is usurping the Holy Covenant of God that His day is holy. I've heard it said, "You keep your day and we keep ours." This is a denial of God. It is not OUR Sabbath: it is His.

Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
(Exodus 31:13)

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called a house of prayer for all people.
(Isaiah 56:6-7)

The Church defiantly rejects the Sabbath day and says, "Our way is good enough [for the likes of God]." By attending and worshipping together under this circumstance, are we participating in this rebellion along with them?