Is it wrong to attend a sunday church?

[Nashdude]

I don't think so. Remember, the church does NOT reject the Sabbath at all, but rather the Jewish view of what was/is accept observation of it.

No offense, but if the Levitical take on God's Law---not the Law itself---was in error before Jesus came, what other observation has been made in error? Personally, I believe God reveals His Law to any who diligently seek Him, and does not limit that revelation to those in the priesthood.

[Mark]

So, are you saying that "private interpretation" is valid?

The Church either disregards or redefines the Sabbath outside of, or independent of biblical reasoning. The clincher for me was this:

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
(Romans 3:1-2)

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
(John 4:22)

God's Chosen People are the people in whom He has established His Word. Paul defines the Jewish people according to these terms.

You have to understand that the arguments in the New Testament between Yeshua and other scholars are all within the confines of Jewish thought. He was teaching against some schools within Judaism often using teachings of another Jewish Sage. All Jews, though they may agree on little else, confess that the Sabbath day is Saturday.

[Nashdude]

Aug 24, 2008 15:51:06 GMT -8 Mark said:

So, are you saying that "private interpretation" is valid?

Not hardly. Rather, I'm saying that God is the only true source of unadulterated wisdom concerning Himself---not the priesthood, not the pastorship, not a mentor or friend. I can screw up what God tells me just as quickly as the priesthood, but that takes nothing away from what God tells me. At least, when seeking God myself, God's Word only passes through ONE screw-up filter, rather than getting a possible screw-up second hand through someone else.

As I said, I didn't mention this to cause a fuss---just to point out that "we've always known it this way" is not always accurate.

All Jews, though they may agree on little else, confess that the Sabbath day is Saturday.

The problem that I have with the Sabbath-Saturday thing is NOT the placement of the Sabbath, but that the Jews put such WEIGHT on the Sabbath being Saturday that it almost approaches idolotry. It's almost more important that the Sabbath be on Saturday than that it be observed with reverence! As such, the focus is NOT on our attitude toward God, but our attitude toward a day of the week. The Old Testament Jews were well-versed in that kind of idolotry---where the observances and sacrifices of the Law were more important to their everyday life than the Giver of the Law Himself was.

Again, no offence. I'm not trying to change anybody's mind. I'm really trying to learn the Jewish perspective here. But for me to comment on something, I cannot keep MY perspective to myself. I am, after all, a disciple of Christ, a blood-bought saint of the Most High, just as yourself. I might have a perspective that might be a blessing to someone---one that might not be native to the Messianic mindset.

[Mark]

I think you have a very important point. It is also taught in many synagogues that if you recite the Shma morning and evening then you are fulfilling the mitzvah to teach your children. Ummm, no.

Yet to identify that many folk don't give the Sabbath day true reverence is not a good answer for not recognizing it's importance at all. It's one of the BIG TEN, for cryin' out loud!

The Sabbath day is very, very important to Adonai. Is it more important than not hating or stealing or cheating? Well, the question is moot, because you can worship on Saturday and still not be a scoundrel; but to say, "I don't worship on Sabbath... but I'm not a scoundrel," is to detract from and devalue the relevance of God's Word. "It is enough that I don't drink or chew or go with girls who do," leaves our understanding of commitment to worship and fellowship on God's terms lacking.

Think about it. Of all the commands given in Scripture, which are really the easiest for us to accomodate? I'm not talking about holding the strictest and most reverant applications; but just saying "Okay God, your way, not mine." Choosing the Sabbath day is pretty far up there. Yet it is not simply disdained by the Church congregation, it is rather heretical! If you doubt, suggest to your congregational leader that Saturday become your church's primary day of worship. Be careful, though, you may cause a coronary rupture. My experience is that the Christian Church is as passionate about Sunday being their holy day as the Jew is about bowing down to worship images.

I think you have it backwards. God commanded the Sabbath day as a day of rest and worship. It is the rejection of the Sabbath that is considered on par with idolatry.

[Mark]

I want to re-assure you that there is none offense taken; and were we to be having this conversation in my living room, I wouldn't spill my coffee nor be raising my voice. This is what we do: wrestle with the Word of God and understand where the other perspective is coming from and challenge each other's thinking. Please speak up and don't be afraid of offending anyone. If the dialogue is without malice of personal attack or, as you may have seen, wrangling with the question so as to confuse the issues, I have no problem with walking along with you on these paths. I'm not going to "pull the plug" because we disagree. If anything, that would weaken my own confidence in the position I have taken. I'm certainly not afraid of changing in pursuit of truth when I have been successfully proven wrong... but that's why I'm here today and not in a Baptist Church.

[Prodigal Girl]

Hello Nashdude.
What changed my mind was when I researched why the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. Also when I thoroughly read what the scriptures had to say about the Sabbath (ALL the scriptures). If the Sabbath was changed to Sunday for some very wrong reasons (and I believe it was) there is no reason why it can't be changed back. I personally am free, in this society, to change it back in my own life. So I did. The scripture has some VERY strong words to say about the Sabbath. Also some very strong actions were taken when the Sabbath was broken. I figure if the Lord very clearly gets that excited about it, perhaps I should to. And there is simply NO scriptural basis for having it on two different days. The Lord is VERY interested on how we manage our time, there is no getting around it.

[vegangirl]

I don't think that people think of it like this, I don't ..

I believe that a lot of people think that Saturday has really been changed people have died believing this, I don't believe there in hell.
Its a Revelation for some people, like my family an I, I didn't know when I read the ten commandments thats when I found out.. Keep the Sabbath day Holy...

I think if the Sabbath is done away with then so are all the Ten commandments..

I also like how the pentecostals praise God , maybe they don't have everything right but what church does? I need that hard preaching some times thats the only reason why I would attend church on Sunday...

[Prodigal Girl]

Hi Vegan,
I agree with you that "they don't have everything right but what church does?". You will always hear this, whenever someone is trying to teach the difference or contrast between what a particular church or synagogue practices and/or believes and what the Bible says. There is always this defensive statement which tends to shut down any further discussion of the issue, which is unfortunate.
There are many people who pick a church or stay with a particular church because of "how they praise God"; in particular corporate worship services. This is not the primary thing that we are told to look for, however. And when the things the Bible says to look for are missing, even when the worship and even the preaching is wonderful and exciting and looks good and sounds right, something is seriously wrong, and it usually comes to light sooner or later.
As far as I can tell, no one here is saying or has said that people are going to hell if they believe in Sunday Sabbath rather than Saturday Sabbath (correct me if I am wrong). I am not sure that any person can really condemn anyone to Hell anyway; that is not our job. But we can definitely look at the Word and look at ourselves (first) and make the needed corrections. Along with that, we do discuss what we have found with others. But it is very easy for others to take offense when we do that.
A major problem that I see with the church and it's traditions are that generally, the church is very reluctant to talk about or study the Sabbath issue to any great extent. That is, the church in America. Mainly because such a discussion does shine an unwelcome light on erroneous church practices and beliefs.

[vegangirl]

Prodigal Girl:

I agree with what u say..
One of the reasons why I left the pentecostal church was because like u said in your post.. (something is seriously wrong, and it usually comes to light sooner or later)
This did happen people were VERY MEAN! if you looked better then them lofty glances even me being a X Mormon .. watch out!! (I'm not saying I looked better but I do have it together pretty well for being a single parent) Praise God with him we would not have this in our lifes

So what I was looking for is the Living GOD.. Not a man made one , do what the pastor does ..

No one said any thing about going to hell. I just said that, but looking back at my bible and the word of God. If u love me keep my commandments.. Its clear to keep ALL of our commandments!

I also was thinking a lot of what Mark said. (The Sabbath day is very, very important to Adonai) just these words brings tears to my eyes. I love God so much... I don't want be that person that don't listen to his commandments.

I don't want to be heretical either for going to church on Sunday's.

I think it might be best if I didn't go to church on Sunday's any more, I don't know.
I had to read Marks post 5times just so things will sink in my mind, I also went to God in prayer and read my bible.

What a great Adoni , and great people on this forum..
I wish we all lived close so we could fellowship

[Prodigal Girl]

Hi vegangirl,
No one should look down on anyone just because they are from a different religious background. None of us has anything to boast about, other than that Yeshua has adopted us out of His mercy. I am so impressed that you are studying the Bible for yourself, like all of us here, rather than just depending on someone else to read and interpret it for you. I really do think that there is error to some extent or other in all religious settings. It is just a matter of trying to get as close as we can to what He wants. We could also have things correct doctrinally and yet miss the mark because our attitude is wrong. So don't let anyone put you down because of where you have come from. Even that can be used by Him for His purposes. You can reach certain people and empathize with them in a way that someone who has not been where you have been can not do.
I wanted to say that I learned recently that the Dutch Reformed church (South Africa) recently repented of the racism that has been part of their doctrine for years. So even entire denominations can repent of wrong and sinful beliefs. A lot of the Bible is written to religious people, trying to reach their hearts to bring them to repentance and correct where they have gone wrong. Really, all of us are in the same boat and none can say we are better than someone else, we all depend on Him. I would bet that every single person here has had the experience of being convinced we were right about something, and then finding out we were wrong all along.
I am really enjoying your contributions to this forum.

[skeeterbugs]

I agree with your post. I think most people misunderstood me. I never said I was looking for a perfect congregation. I said I want to attend a synagogue not a church.

I do not celebrate Christian holidays. I celebrate the biblical festivals. I have been told by Christians that I do not believe in Yeshua if I do not put a christmas tree up and celebrate christmas. I have been told I am not a believer if I do not celebrate Easter. When I told them I refuse to celebrate any holidays that is full of peganism. I have been told well they have to have something to celebrate. I feel very uncomftorable even walking into a church because practically every church in my town is antisemitic. They preach that the talmidin and Yeshua turned their backs on Judaism. No thanks I do not want any of that. What about what Adonai said about us to seperate ourselves from the world?

[Prodigal Girl]

Perhaps if everyone ups and votes with their feet, then pastors may have to actually have no choice but to actually learn about why they are leaving. Generally, it seems that it is typical for pastors to make fun of, ignore, or not take seriously, the ones who leave to attend Messianic congregations. I am amazed that churches do not have exit interviews. They are very interested in getting people in the door, but very rarely do they spend any amount of effort at finding out why people leave.
It is difficult for me to understand how they can be so familiar with scripture and yet continue to believe the erroneous church dogmas which do not match up.
I know that personally it is very common, for those who become convinced towards Messianic, to experience great frustration when they attempt to continue attending their old church. I really think that this is part of His plan. Why do so many try to hang on as long as possible? Because they have been comfortable for so long, it is hard to leave, and also very hard to accept that He would actually want you to. I can see why some say, that Jews will not be convinced in great numbers, until those who say they follow Yeshua leave the church systems that teach things that make it virtually impossible for Jews to believe in a Messiah that supposedly teaches that the is no longer valid. Because Moses himself said not to follow one who did that.
I heard someone once say, that your heart is where your butt is. In other words, what you truly care about is evident in where and how you spend your time. If you leave, the ones who are meant to follow, will. Staying and trying to convince others, which is something that some here are trying to do, is not, in my opinion, a good long-term strategy.

[veggirl]

No we should not participate in this rebellion, we should follow the bible as best as we can..

Whats real is that people that been keeping sabbath for many many years , now attend on sunday. =(

I still love everyone ... sabbath keeper's or not.

[jimmie]

If God accepts Sunday whorship. Then the story of Cain is not logical.

Cain offered a scrifice not required by God. It displeased God.

Christians offer a day not required by God. Why would that please him.

[alon]

I keep Shabbat, however there is no one else close to meet with so I just set the day aside myself. I also attend an AoG church on Sunday. They are an active church that I feel comfortable fellowshipping with. I see nowhere in the Bible this is prohibited.

They know about my beliefs and even listen to some of my ravings. The only time I ever really got opposition was when I "attacked" Christmas.

Dan C