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Post by alon on May 7, 2014 6:19:34 GMT -8
I am more than willing to do what is required of me in the Scriptures...you know that, and in the Kingdom, we will have first hand instructions to know what to do. My question is related only to the blood sacrifices for sin after the raising of the 3rd temple, not all the other sacrifices made there. Where does it say in the Scriptures that blood sacrifices are looking back to the Stake, and Yehoshua's giving of himself for us? It is an inference drawn from three knowns: 1. the sacrifices before Yeshua looked forward to the promise of a redeemer, the Messiah 2. sacrifices continued until the destruction of he Temple in 70 CE 3. sacrifices will be reinstated when the 3rd Temple is built, and certainly they will be required of all men in the 4th Temple Since there were and will be sacrifices again, they must look back to what was done. Where else would they look? Dan C |
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Post by Questor on May 7, 2014 6:49:34 GMT -8
I am more than willing to do what is required of me in the Scriptures...you know that, and in the Kingdom, we will have first hand instructions to know what to do. My question is related only to the blood sacrifices for sin after the raising of the 3rd temple, not all the other sacrifices made there. Where does it say in the Scriptures that blood sacrifices are looking back to the Stake, and Yehoshua's giving of himself for us? It is an inference drawn from three knowns: 1. the sacrifices before Yeshua looked forward to the promise of a redeemer, the Messiah 2. sacrifices continued until the destruction of he Temple in 70 CE
As for the sacrifices taking place in the Temple until it was destroyed 40 years after Yehoshua died...isn't that what Hebrews was arguing about?
Hebrews 6:4-6 (CJB)
4 For when people have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become sharers in the Ruach HaKodesh,
5 and tasted the goodness of God’s Word and the powers of the ‘olam haba —
6 and then have fallen away — it is impossible to renew them so that they turn from their sin, as long as for themselves they keep executing the Son of God on the stake all over again and keep holding him up to public contempt.
Also, we do not have any Cohen haGadol except Yehoshua now...any high priest raised up under the non-Messianic Jews cannot make sacrifices for us at all. We are legally cleared of all sin by Yehoshua's redemption for us under the law.
Hebrews 7:15-28 (CJB)
15 It becomes even clearer if a “different kind of cohen,” one like Malki-Tzedek, arises,
16 one who became a cohen not by virtue of a rule in the  concerning physical descent, but by virtue of the power of an indestructible life.
17 For it is stated, “You are a cohen FOREVER, to be compared with Malki-Tzedek.”
18 Thus, on the one hand, the earlier rule is set aside because of its weakness and inefficacy
19 (for the did not bring anything to the goal); and, on the other hand, a hope of something better is introduced, through which we are drawing near to God.
20 What is more, God swore an oath. For no oath was sworn in connection with those who become cohanim now;
21 but Yeshua became a cohen by the oath which God swore when he said to him, “Adonai has sworn and will not change his mind, ‘You are a cohen forever.’”
22 Also this shows how much better is the covenant of which Yeshua has become guarantor.
23 Moreover, the present cohanim are many in number, because they are prevented by death from continuing in office.
24 But because he lives forever, his position as cohen does not pass on to someone else;
25 and consequently, he is totally able to deliver those who approach God through him; since he is alive forever and thus forever able to intercede on their behalf.
26 This is the kind of cohen gadol that meets our need — holy, without evil, without stain, set apart from sinners and raised higher than the heavens;
27 one who does not have the daily necessity, like the other cohanim g’dolim, of offering up sacrifices first for their own sins and only then for those of the people; because he offered one sacrifice, once and for all, by offering up himself.
28 For the appoints as cohanim g’dolim men who have weakness; but the text which speaks about the swearing of the oath, a text written later than the , appoints a Son who has been brought to the goal forever.
I have no doubt that any Jew brought up in the sacrificial system in the fisrt century would continue to make sacrifices...what we do not know is if they continued to make blood sacrifices for sin, and if they did, that they were acceptable to YHVH at that point. They were unnecessary, certainly.
With the Temple standing for a mere 40 years...a traditional time of testing, and with the veil torn, I wonder that any Messianic Jew would keep making blood sacrifices for sin after Yehoshua died.
And as there is nothing specific in Scripture to continue to make blood sacrifices when a temple system is again raised in Israel, I can only go on with Wine and Matza as a remembrance.
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Post by alon on May 7, 2014 7:01:56 GMT -8
I am more than willing to do what is required of me in the Scriptures...you know that, and in the Kingdom, we will have first hand instructions to know what to do. My question is related only to the blood sacrifices for sin after the raising of the 3rd temple, not all the other sacrifices made there. Where does it say in the Scriptures that blood sacrifices are looking back to the Stake, and Yehoshua's giving of himself for us? It is inferred from: 1. Sacrifices made before Yeshua looked forward to the promised Messiah and His redemptive act 2. Sacrifices continued at the Temple even by Sha'ul and the apostles until it was destroyed in 70CE. These necessarily looked back to Yeshua's work of redemption. 3. It was the destruction of the Temple that stopped the sacrifices, not Yeshua 4. The Temple will be rebuilt, as prophesied - Dan 9:27, 2 Thes 2:3-4, Rev 11:1-2, 5. Third Temple destroyed and a new Temple built - Rev 6:12-17 probably destroys third Temple, Eze 40-46 This is the Millinieal Temple
(like I said, my understanding of end times prophecy isn't really great, so whether the Third just gets cleansed and there are sacrifices there or not, either way when there is a cleansed Temple the sacrifices are resumed. After the resurrection, any sacrifices made must look back to what was done, as it was done once for all and no more. Prophesies of sacrifices in the Millineal Temple: Isaiah 56:6,7 ""And the foreigners who join themselves to ADONAI to serve him, to love the name of ADONAI, and to be his workers, all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it, and hold fast to my covenant, I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all peoples.""
Isaiah 60:7 "All the flocks of Kedar will be gathered for you, the rams of N'vayot will be at your service; they will come up and be received on my altar, as I glorify my glorious house."
Jeremiah 33:18 "Nor will there ever be cut off from the cohanim who are L'vi'im a man before me to offer burnt offerings, burn grain offerings and offer sacrifices every day."
Zechariah 14:16-21 "Finally, everyone remaining from all the nations that came to attack Yerushalayim will go up every year to worship the king, ADONAI-Tzva'ot, and to keep the festival of Sukkot. If any of the families of the earth does not go up to Yerushalayim to worship the king, ADONAI-Tzva'ot, no rain will fall on them. If the family of Egypt doesn't go up, if they refuse to come, they will have no [annual] overflow [from the Nile]; moreover, there will be the plague with which ADONAI will strike the nations that don't go up to keep the festival of Sukkot. This will be Egypt's punishment and the punishment of all the nations that don't go up to keep the festival of Sukkot. When that day comes, this will be written on the bells worn by the horses: "Consecrated to ADONAI"; and the cooking pots in the house of ADONAI will be [as holy] as the sprinkling bowls before the altar. Yes, every cooking pot in Yerushalayim and Y'hudah will be consecrated to ADONAI-Tzva'ot. Everyone who offers sacrifices will come, take them and use them to stew the meat. When that day comes, there will no longer be merchants in the house of ADONAI-Tzva'ot. So be there or be dry ... Dan (all wet) C |
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Post by Questor on May 7, 2014 7:25:49 GMT -8
I am more than willing to do what is required of me in the Scriptures...you know that, and in the Kingdom, we will have first hand instructions to know what to do. My question is related only to the blood sacrifices for sin after the raising of the 3rd temple, not all the other sacrifices made there. Where does it say in the Scriptures that blood sacrifices are looking back to the Stake, and Yehoshua's giving of himself for us? It is inferred from: 1. Sacrifices made before Yeshua looked forward to the promised Messiah and His redemptive act 2. Sacrifices continued at the Temple even by Sha'ul and the apostles until it was destroyed in 70CE. These necessarily looked back to Yeshua's work of redemption. 3. It was the destruction of the Temple that stopped the sacrifices, not Yeshua 4. The Temple will be rebuilt, as prophesied - Dan 9:27, 2 Thes 2:3-4, Rev 11:1-2, 5. Third Temple destroyed and a new Temple built - Rev 6:12-17 probably destroys third Temple, Eze 40-46 This is the Millinieal Temple
(like I said, my understanding of end times prophecy isn't really great, so whether the Third just gets cleansed and there are sacrifices there or not, either way when there is a cleansed Temple the sacrifices are resumed. After the resurrection, any sacrifices made must look back to what was done, as it was done once for all and no more. Prophesies of sacrifices in the Millineal Temple: Isaiah 56:6,7 ""And the foreigners who join themselves to ADONAI to serve him, to love the name of ADONAI, and to be his workers, all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it, and hold fast to my covenant, I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all peoples.""
Isaiah 60:7 "All the flocks of Kedar will be gathered for you, the rams of N'vayot will be at your service; they will come up and be received on my altar, as I glorify my glorious house."
Jeremiah 33:18 "Nor will there ever be cut off from the cohanim who are L'vi'im a man before me to offer burnt offerings, burn grain offerings and offer sacrifices every day."
Zechariah 14:16-21 "Finally, everyone remaining from all the nations that came to attack Yerushalayim will go up every year to worship the king, ADONAI-Tzva'ot, and to keep the festival of Sukkot. If any of the families of the earth does not go up to Yerushalayim to worship the king, ADONAI-Tzva'ot, no rain will fall on them. If the family of Egypt doesn't go up, if they refuse to come, they will have no [annual] overflow [from the Nile]; moreover, there will be the plague with which ADONAI will strike the nations that don't go up to keep the festival of Sukkot. This will be Egypt's punishment and the punishment of all the nations that don't go up to keep the festival of Sukkot. When that day comes, this will be written on the bells worn by the horses: "Consecrated to ADONAI"; and the cooking pots in the house of ADONAI will be [as holy] as the sprinkling bowls before the altar. Yes, every cooking pot in Yerushalayim and Y'hudah will be consecrated to ADONAI-Tzva'ot. Everyone who offers sacrifices will come, take them and use them to stew the meat. When that day comes, there will no longer be merchants in the house of ADONAI-Tzva'ot. So be there or be dry ... Dan (all wet) C
In addition, there are many offerings that are made that are not for a sin-offering. Perhaps it was those offerings made by Messianic Jews in the first century. We cannot know.
As to inferring from what has been done by others in the past for our future behavior under Yehoshua, I will wait for Yehoshua's direction on what to do after the 3rd Temple is cleansed and re-dedicated. And I will see you there, without doubt! |
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Post by alon on May 7, 2014 8:02:52 GMT -8
Alon, I speak not to the Millenial Temple, but of the 3rd temple that will be raised when the AntiChrist is nearing, or already ruling the world. Offering an animal in memory of Yehoshua is nowhere in the Scriptures...sorry. I'll take your word for now. I may do some studies on prophecy in the future, but it's not even on my radar right now. At any rate, once the Temple is defiled there could be no sacrifices to YHVH until it was purged. Probably it will be destroyed instead of purged- I dunno. Actually we can. In order to participate in the Nazarine vows a whole stockyard of animals had to be sacrificed. Paul went through the vows once and helped another go through them, so he had to have made sacrifices. Also, as I said, all the Jewish believers in Yeshua were practicing as just another sect of Judaism at the time. They were accepted as such then as well. Had they not participated in the sacrificial system, they would have been outcast, separated from their people lest they pollute the Temple and bring further destruction on the nation. Well, I think it is logical to infer that any future sacrifices will look back to what Yeshua did for us. The scriptures I gave say there will be future sacrifices in the 4th Temple. In the 3rd, I'm just going to copy what you do since I'm not sure about that one!  Dan C |
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Post by Questor on May 8, 2014 18:42:22 GMT -8
I have no doubt that any Jew brought up in the sacrificial system in the fisrt century would continue to make sacrifices...what we do not know is if they continued to make blood sacrifices for sin, and if they did, that they were acceptable to YHVH at that point. They were unnecessary, certainly.
With the Temple standing for a mere 40 years...a traditional time of testing, and with the veil torn, I wonder that any Messianic Jew would keep making blood sacrifices for sin after Yehoshua died.
And as there is nothing specific in Scripture to continue to make blood sacrifices when a temple system is again raised in Israel, I can only go on with Wine and Matza as a remembrance.
Really what about in Ezekiel?
Somehow I don't quite relate to that being a reference to 1st Century Messianic Jews making a blood sacrifice for redemption of sin after Yehoshua rose from the grave, and all our sins were covered. Blood Sacrifices for other reasons...in thanksgiving, to meet a vow, certainly.
Just not a blood sacrifice for sin.
Ezekiel 39:17-29 (CJB)
17 “As for you, human, Adonai Elohim says that you are to speak to all kinds of birds and to every wild animal as follows: ‘Assemble yourselves and come, gather yourselves from all around for the sacrifice I am preparing for you, a great sacrifice on the mountains of Isra’el, where you can eat flesh and drink blood!
18 You will eat the flesh of heroes and drink the blood of the earth’s princes — rams, lambs, goats and bulls, fattened in Bashan, all of them.
19 You will eat fat till you are gorged and drink blood till you are drunk at the sacrifice I have prepared for you.
20 At my table you will be satiated with horses, horsemen, heroes and every kind of warrior,’ says Adonai Elohim.
21 “‘Thus will I display my glory among the nations, so that all the nations will see my judgment when I execute it and my hand when I lay it on them.
22 From that day on, the house of Isra’el will know that I am Adonai their God;
23 while the Goyim will know that the house of Isra’el went into exile because of their guilt, because they broke faith with me; so that I hid my face from them and handed them over to their adversaries; and they fell by the sword, all of them.
24 Yes, I treated them as their uncleanness and crimes deserved; and I hid my face from them.’
25 “Therefore Adonai Elohim says this: ‘Now I will restore the fortunes of Ya‘akov and have compassion on the entire house of Isra’el, and I will be jealous for my holy name.
26 They will bear their  and all their [guilt from] breaking faith with me, once they are living securely in their land, with no one to make them afraid.
27 This will be after I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, thereby being consecrated through them in the sight of many nations.
28 Then they will know that I am Adonai their God, since it was I who caused them to go into exile among the nations, and it was I who regathered them to their own land. I will leave none of them there any more,
29 and I will no longer hide my face from them, for I have poured out my Spirit on the house of Isra’el,’ says Adonai Elohim.”
Ezekial is about Gog/Magog, not about Temple Sacrifices, and even though the House of Israel is mentioned, we won't be talking about Messianic Jews here!
Ezekiel 38:16-23 (CJB)
16 and you will invade my people Isra’el like a cloud covering the land. This will be in the acharit-hayamim; and I will bring you against my land, so that the Goyim will know me when, before their eyes, I am set apart as holy through you, Gog.’
17 “Adonai Elohim says: ‘I spoke of you long ago through my servants the prophets of Isra’el. Back then, they prophesied for many years that I would have you invade them.
18 When that day comes, when Gog invades the land of Isra’el,’ says Adonai Elohim, ‘my furious anger will boil up.
19 In my jealousy, in my heated fury I speak: when that day comes there will be a great earthquake in the land of Isra’el;
20 so that the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, the wild beasts, all the reptiles creeping on the ground and every human being there in the land will tremble before me. Mountains will fall, cliffs crumble and every wall crash to the ground.
21 I will summon a sword against him throughout all my mountains,’ says Adonai Elohim; ‘every man will wield his sword against his brother.
22 I will judge him with plague and with blood. I will cause torrential rain to fall on him, his troops and the many peoples with him, along with huge hailstones, fire and sulfur.
23 I will show my greatness and holiness, making myself known in the sight of many nations; then they will know that I am Adonai.’
I am specifically referencing Messianic Jews in First Century Jerusalem, and blood sacrifices for sin. There was no further need to gain redemption by a sacrifice.
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- there are 70 faces to 
and all their [guilt from] breaking faith with me, once they are living securely in their land, with no one to make them afraid. 
