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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Nov 22, 2004 11:29:58 GMT -8
This article is somewhat after the fact, but I found it interesting...
Please share your thoughts....
Shalom aleychem chaverim,
(Peace be upon you friends)
Reuel
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Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Nov 24, 2004 11:39:10 GMT -8
 More Conservative Jews (politcally); always a grand help around the world. I did not exactly need a newss article to tell me that a known terrorist would want a Democrat in office.
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Curt
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Post by Curt on Nov 24, 2004 16:25:27 GMT -8
Reuel,
Yes, I can believe Israel is the only country in the world to want Bush elected over Kerry. It is something I've been saying all along the rest of the world does not agree with what we are doing especially in Iraq. Israel has a vested interest in U.S. policy being run by Bush because it involves making war with their enemies. Unlike Israel, we don't have a good reason for us to be fighting in Iraq. Front pages of two different foreign newspapers read after Bush's Election win: 1.) "Oh My God, they did it Again"; and the second newspaper 2.)" 59 Million, How Dumb"!
Too put it in proper perspective Israel may have been the only country for Bush but I saw the statistics right after the election and American Jews voted in the 70 something percentage range for Kerry over Bush. I was going to copy it but it was gone when I got around to it. How do you figure that one? ;D
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Nov 25, 2004 20:12:13 GMT -8
This means nothing as it will be the case when the following scriptures come to pass...
"For thus saith YHVH G'd of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.
And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them."
- Yermayahu (Jeremiah) 25:15-16
"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city."
- Zechariah 14:2
In other words, all the other nations do not have G-d's plan in mind...
"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and you shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."
- Mattityahu (Matthew) 24:9
Just remember that when we have a president that comes against Israel especially during the time when -all nations- come against Israel...America will be on G-d's hit list.
Shalom,
Reuel
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Curt
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Post by Curt on Dec 1, 2004 17:57:26 GMT -8
Reuel, Reuel: The contempt the rest of the world has for us is not due to their wickedness. It is due to our wickedness! A super-military power invading a third-rate unarmed country on first the pretext of WMD, then second Iraq is a part of al Quaeda, and finally when those two didn't work we there to liberate the Iraqi people doesn't set right with the rest of the world and a majority of Americans. After more than 18 months of war we should be able to see we are fighting the Iraqi people for their "oil". Does anyone remember Bush saying to Sadaam Hussein and his sons if you just leave the country we won't invade. Well, Sadaam is captured and his sons are dead. We're fighting the Iraqi people. Reuel: The above verses in Jeremiah 25:15-16 are speaking of the time of Jesus return to ressurect His saints, give them immortality and take them to heaven. During this first ressurection "all the nations" of the world and their inhabitants will be destroyed. Noone will be left alive on earth. Some of those wicked will be part of what is now physical Israel. Read later in the same chapter Jeremiah 25:33 "And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground." Reuel: Curt: I really do understand your concern for Israel. What happened in Zechariah 14:2 has already happened. It happened when Rome took Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Do you see the differences between Jeremiah 25:33 and Zechariah 14:2? In Zechariah Jerusalem was taken; in Jeremiah 25:33 all nations and wicked inhabitants were destroyed. Reuel: Curt: Indeed, they don't but neither does Israel! Since the stoning of Stephan, Israel as a physical nation has not been God's chosen people. After Stephan's stoning the gospel was taken to the Gentiles. Spiritual Israel will be made up of both Jew and Gentile individuals. Reuel: Curt: Matthew is speaking of the coming destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in A.D. 70. If you move back to Matthew 24:1-2 you will see he fortells of not one stone being left upon another.In verse 3 the disciples ask Him a two-fold question. When will these things be? (The destruction of the temple) and secondly what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age? Matthew 24:1-3 "Then Jesus went out and departed from "the temple" and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, 'Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.' Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age" Reuel: Curt: We may or may not have a president that comes against Israel. I doubt it will ever happen. There certainly hasn't been anyone who has ever run for president now and in the past that would have considered the idea. It is not about physical Israel anymore it is about spiritual Israel. There will be spiritual Israelites from every nation in the world including the physical nation of Israel. America will be on God's hit list as will the physical nation of Israel and all other nations.  |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Dec 2, 2004 15:55:15 GMT -8
Shalom Curt,
My point was that just because all of the nations agree on something does not make it true as with the passages that I outlined which demonstrate that all nations will come against Israel in the end days, and Mashiach will come and fight against those nations. But, Israel will be saved.
We have gone over your assertions as described above in other threads dedicated to these subjects, and it has clearly been demonstrated that not only do the scriptures reject the above ideas, but they are simply ideas that cater to a convenient theology in which the scriptures are spiritualized away, and G-d’s chosen people are dispensed with. Again, the scriptures sternly reject these thoughts which you communicate…<br>
”I say then, Hath G’d cast away his people? G’d forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. G’d hath not cast away his people which he foreknew….”
You can disagree all you want, but physical Israel (which will also be spiritual Israel) will be re-established with the Gentiles whom have joined themselves to her….
”…many people and strong nations shall come to seek YHVH of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before YHVH.
Thus saith YHVH of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that G’d is with you.”
- Zechariah 8:23
If you wish to continue this particular discussion, take care that you reply in the appropriate area on the forum. Let us stay on topic.
Todah,
Reuel
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Curt
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Posts: 136
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Post by Curt on Dec 6, 2004 16:00:09 GMT -8
Shalom Reuel, I'll just answer the current event portion of your last reply in this topic area. Curt: I agree that just because all nations agree on something doesn't necessarily make something true. In today's world arena you can either agree with what I said about the U.S. and Iraq or you can disagree. I'm not sure whether I will respond to the specific discussion concerning ideas such as 1.) "all nations coming against Israel in the end days and 2.) other passages you say I have covered elsewhere. Reason being that I'm not sure I will have enough time to cover them adequately and I also feel your so entrenched in those particular beliefs. But if I do I'll search for the appropriate area. It is strange however that the ministries I like to listen to and watch covered those same topics just recently. I couldn't help but think of you when listening. One Christian pastor who is of Jewish heritage said he feels sorry for people who are looking towards Israel in the Middle East for their end-time prophecies. He said it is Satan's deception to take your mind off the heavenly sanctuary. The other Christian pastor who is not of Jewish heritage spent some time over in Israel speaking to the Rabbi's concerning such prophecies. The rabbi's were especially angry about the prophecy of building a new temple on the Muslim Mosque site. They said will you tell those stupid American preachers to "stop preaching we are planning on building a new temple on the Muslim Mosque site." "We wouldn't do it even if we could, their's millions of Muslims." Just remember if I'm wrong about what the Bible is saying on these specific subjects and your right; I still have time to get it right when I see what your saying is happening in front of my eyes. But if I'm right you won't have time to recover from Satan's deception. May God help us all see the truth! |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Dec 6, 2004 16:49:34 GMT -8
All I have communicated comes straight from scripture and they are not my opinions. If you can show me through the scriptures that what you say is clearly true, and not just spiritualized opinions of the literal text...I will be willing to change my mind as I have done on numerous occasions in my life in regards to my understanding of the scriptures. What is  is when a Jewish person turns from  , and rejects the promises of G-d. As for the other Pastor's and the Rabbi's he spoke to...this is common as many of the Rabbis are entreanched in traditions that reject the scriptures as Yeshua spoke of (Mark 7:9). I have spoken personally with a Kohen (Levitical Priest) that came over from Israel to do a presentation at our congregation. He is one of the individuals responsible for restoring, and preparing many of the items that will be used in the coming Temple. And, what I have stated in regards to the Temple, and the resistance of the Jewish people is his witness as well. You may e-mail him yourself by visiting www.begedivri.com . His name is Reuven Prager and is well know in Israel. He says that in general, the Jewish people do not want to talk about this subject (which explains that reaction that your Pastor friend recieved). By the way, Rueven is not a believer in Messiah. I am entrenched in the scriptures, and the scritpures clearly do not support your claims. But, it works great if you are a Seventh Day Adventist or some similar group.  Again, I would be more than happy to discuss the scriptures with you in the threads already started for the subjects in question. Visit this link for the apropriate area: theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=messianicShalom aleychem (Peace be upon you), Reuel |
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Curt
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Post by Curt on Dec 8, 2004 16:01:24 GMT -8
Shalom Reuel, It seems there is disagreement even among the Jewish people as to whether they wish the temple to be rebuilt. Curt: And doesn't all the different denominations feel exactly the way you do? My feeling is that you are sincere in believing this as are many of the denominations; but not everyone can be right about the many different beliefs professed. Most Prostestant denominations claim what they believe comes straight from the scriptures and doen't involve their opinions. The reason for the many beliefs is because of private intrepretations of the given scripture instead of allowing the Bible to intrepret itself. Having said this I don't think it is wrong to use dictionaries in research,or to use encylopedias to back up history. It's not wrong to draw logic from different Bible verses. That's what the Bereans did! Not all scripture is literal some of it is symbolic. Scripture taken out of context does not make for accurate doctrine. Curt: I'll let you and el gusano use the labels. I line up behind issues and doctrines not behind labels. Even with such different political views as el gusano and myself; our debate opened a lot of minds to more than just a narrower way of thinking. I do believe God would like the truth to be known concerning these specific Bible verses we are disscussing. If I have the time I will try to accomodate. |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Dec 8, 2004 17:13:18 GMT -8
Good point, although I would also like to point out that most demoninations pick and choose what they like, and what they don’t like in the scriptures. In reality, they use semantics, and not scripture to back up their doctrines. Here is what I am asking you to do; back up what you are saying by clear scripture, and not by what your denomination has taught you, or what you feel is right in your own eyes.
They may claim this but when it comes down to testing the scriptures the smoke quickly clears away…i.e. Sunday keeping…<br>
I agree, let the Bible interpret itself. This is why I use so much scripture in my replies (which backup my statements). The only way to get around the scriptures which I have presented is by claiming that it is all “pie in the sky”, and that it is not real…just spiritual…What a convenient way to explain away scriptures that don’t fit with our own theology.
Amen, and amen. I don’t believe I have ever objected to what you have stated above. But, when we apply proper hermeneutics to the scripture, scripture cannot contradict other scripture. This is what most have done. They take one scripture (usually not from the foundation/TeNaKh), and use it to erase the foundational scripture that contradicts it. Remember, that when Sha'ul was using the Bereans as a noble example in regards to interpreting the truth, these people tested Sha'ul's (Paul's) teachings by the TeNaKh, and not the other way around (his own writings). Please, be like the Bereans, and test what I say, or anything anybody else says on this forum. I want you to believe the scriptures…not me.
I agree that there are some scripture passages that are symbolic, but these passages are made clear within the reading when this is the case. In most cases, there is an interpretation given along with the passage.
The point I have been trying to make is not to line up behind labels, but to line up behind the scriptures.
I agree, and this is why I allow these different views to be expressed here on the forum. But, if a view is expressed…be ready for it to be tested by the scriptures.
Feel free to do so in the designated areas. Although, until you do so, let us please keep this thread on topic.
Shalom aleychem,
Reuel
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from Sinai and transmitted it to Yoheshuah; Yoheshuah to the Shoftim; the Shoftim to the Nev'yim; and the Nev'yim transmitted it throughout Judea. It came BACK to Yohshuah HaMoshiach who retransmitted it to the rest of the world through Reb Sha'ul and Reb Cephas.
is when a Jewish person turns from 
