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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Mar 22, 2004 15:02:46 GMT -8
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Yochanah
Junior Member
Yochanah...Yah Enables
Posts: 99
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Post by Yochanah on Mar 24, 2004 19:36:33 GMT -8
Yes, while we are to be vigilent and keep watch we should pray for FAITH in His ability to deliver His people. Messiah never got involved in politics, nor concerned Himself with them. He is our Example. Daniel 12:1-3 (KJV) "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. [2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to  and everlasting contempt. [3] And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever." Many things are going to take place which will place the children of the Most High in postions that will cause them to take a stand for the ways of this world or to seek to do the will of our Almighty YHVH. Matthew 10:34 (KJV) "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 5:11 (KJV) Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Matthew 6:34 (KJV) Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Matthew 24:19-22 (KJV) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Maybe He saw this coming to pass and this is why He told us to pray that we would not have small children that will have to suffer the tribulation, rather than about the political affairs of this world, perhaps? |
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Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Jul 18, 2004 16:59:53 GMT -8
By all means I hope to have as many children as God wills and no one will tell why I shouldn't, where I can or can't, or when the time is "nationally apprpriate". That's communism, and I hate to sound like a too proud preacher, but God hates communism!  I tell you gent's something my father tells me every single time we watch the news; "When is there gonna be another revolution?" As I have stated before, I would love for the South, or at least someone somewhere, to rise up again, because this time slavery will not be the issue or even the problem. It will be the problem of an all to powerful government. Thomas Jefferson once said that a little revolution every now and then is for the betterment of the nation.  |
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Post by el Gusano on Jul 18, 2004 18:34:21 GMT -8
Actually, last time, the issue was not slavery; it was a too strong government. But, the too strong government used the slavery issue for propoganda purposes. Slavery was already on its way out; taxation without representation was the issue. Reading history books by historians is a big eye opener when compared to the twisted history presented in public schools. (This is not the only issue twisted by Big Brother in the public shools, either.)
That being said, I think there will be a revolution over religion before it's all over.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 18, 2004 18:34:31 GMT -8
Chumash614, I understand your frustration. We do have a responsibility to be politically active to do everything we can to stop these type of things. We have the right to vote, therefore we have the responsibility to do so. I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that if we don’t…we will be held accountable. To reply to Yochanah’s statement made in this thread on Mar 24 …. He doesn’t tell us to pray that we would not have small children. Here is what He tells us to pray…<br> “But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day”It is disturbing to me that people would think that the L-rd would not want us to have children as all through out scripture the message has been the opposite. This type of theology actually serves the enemies purposes in diminishing the people of G’d. The logic goes something like… “Why would we want to bring our children into a world like this full of death, and misery?” But, this ignores the fact that many of G-d’s people were born into adversity. Just one good example would be Y’shua Himself. When He was born Herod was killing all the baby boys…<br> ”Then seeing that he was mocked by the wise men, Herod was greatly enraged, and having sent, he killed all the boys in Bethlehem and in all its districts, from two years old and under, according to the time which he exactly asked from the wise men.”- Matthew 2:16 Another example was when Moshe was born as the Pharaoh was also killing all of the babies. El Shaddai will protect our children, and unless it His will…the evil one cannot touch them. I currently have three children, and will have our next child in about three weeks. We intend to have as many children as Adonai will bless us with. Although, I am not too sure that revolution is the answer  Shalom, Reuel |
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Post by el Gusano on Jul 19, 2004 0:00:43 GMT -8
I would like to ask a question, but first make a comment about this subject:
It is not the business of the government to tell me how many children I may have. (This leads to an interesting philosophical argument about the Chinese and how overpopulation is pretty bad, but that's a different debate.)
However, are we not told to be stewards of our planet? We don't know when the second coming is, but if the population keeps growing, we will have one person for every two square feet of land on the entire planet by the year 2225. Supposing we find a way to settle other planets, and assuming there are 100,000 earth-like planets in the galaxy, if we continue growing at our current rate, we would have one person for every two square feet of land on every single planet in the galaxy in less than 1000 years.
I don't have the numbers right in front of me in which I worked this out at the moment, so don't hold me hard and fast to these numbers. But, I think the date for every single planet is more along the lines of 775 years, not 1000.
We were told to be fruitful and multiply, but we were also given intelligence (and told to be good stewards). We have been given the ability to prevent this, without using abortion.
Are we to continue multiplying ourselves into trouble and plan on the second coming before things get too bad are or we to be accountable before it gets to that point?
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 19, 2004 6:39:35 GMT -8
Overpopulation warnings are blown way out of preportion. This is simply propaganda for HaSatan which many well-meaning people have bought into. We will never see "one person for every two square feet of land". Being good stewards of our planet means following G-d's commandments, and raising our children to do the same. If we do this, G'd will take care of the details. In fact, He promises that if we do this He will both bless us, and the land! If the ungodly would stop having premarital intercourse, and the people of G'd only had children until they were married...population growth would be tempered. It is somewhat of a paradox. I submit that until the godly are multiplied, the population growth will only increase, and society will go down hill. But of course, nobody wants to do it G-d's way.  So instead, are we to limit the number of godly people we bring into this world while the ungodly, and immoral multiply?...On the contrary, we should not lean on our own wisdom, and logic. We should trust in The L-rd, and the wisdom He gives us in His Word...we should not trust in what the enviromentalists say.  Shalom, Reuel |
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Post by el Gusano on Jul 19, 2004 8:10:21 GMT -8
I agree with what you are saying, but how do we stop the ungodly from multiplying and how do we stop premarital intercourse? (I think that children born out of wedlock now account for 50% of all children, and how many "marriages" are formed outside of a Godly bond?) What are the solutions for problems such as this?
But, the world now has 11% of all people ever living alive at this very moment. The US has a net gain of one person every 11 seconds. The world gains about 1 person per second. (A lot of this is because longevity has been increased and infant mortality has been decreased through medicine.) On January 1, 1970, the world population was 3.91 billion; today, it is 6.44 billion.
If one assumes a steady growth rate of 1.5%, that means the world population doubles every 47 years. (I think the US population growth is about 1.2%, but the world population growth is about 2%; at 2%, the world population doubles every 35 years.
There is about 150,000,000 square km of land in the world (this includes deserts and land covered by ice). 807,293,250,000,000 will fit here, if you put person for every two square feet of land, including that covered by ice and in deserts. So, let's assume people can live on all these spots: This number will be reached in less than 600 years. This leaves no room for farmland at all, and does not take into account the impace of pollution upon the water or anything else. This just takes into account humanity.
It takes less than 600 years to fill 100,000 planets after this point.
Now, this all assumes a steady growth rate, and continued longevity and infant mortality rates and the ability to grow food with all land covered and the ability of the earth not to be polluted to the point that people can no longer live.
Now, I doubt we'll be here long enough for this. But, does that excuse not taking care of the planet?
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Yochanah
Junior Member
Yochanah...Yah Enables
Posts: 99
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Post by Yochanah on Jul 19, 2004 10:55:57 GMT -8
Shalom my brothers in Messiah,
I would like to address my former statement that Brother Reuel quoted:
"Maybe He saw this coming to pass and this is why He told us to pray that we would not have small children that will have to suffer the tribulation, rather than about the political affairs of this world, perhaps?"
Forgive me, please, for making a misleading statement. This is a rebuke to me to take better care when speaking of His Word. Brother Reuel is right, Yeshua never said we should pray not to have small children.
My comment was a combined thought of what Yeshua did say,
"And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Matthew 24:19-21
As a mother and grandmother knowing, by the signs that are fulfilled, that the Second Coming is directly before us, praise His Name, I fear for my loved ones that are not yet walking with Messiah. There is a canopy of protection He promised, and will provide, for all who love Him and show their love through their obedience to His perfect ways, but woe to those who have rejected the life He has offered.
We can not judge anyone's heart condition but, by their fruits, we "shall know them" He said.
I fear for those with fruits of disobedience. This is not to say that while they may display such fruit now that they can not and prayerfully will "turn from their evil ways" one day soon. But knowing what is ahead I am of the same mind as the Disciples which when they heard about the conditions of divorce said, "It is better never to marry." When I know what is coming and see it happening I think, "It is better not to have children."
And Yeshua answered them with, " All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." Matthew 19:11-12
And Paul agreed that it was better not to marry. If one does not marry on account of the kingdom of heaven's sake than one does not have children on account of the that kingdom. And there is no contraditions of Scriptures in this. Those who wish to multiply may do so and those who wish not to may follow the convictions of their conscience as well.
As to political matters, while it is true that if you know of a situation and do nothing to prevent it you will be held accountable, I fear too many rush out to do their duty ill informed on what they are voting in or out. While Elohim is ultimately in control as He "puts them up and takes them down", the political arena has been craftily meddled by the "principalities of darkness"into the affairs of men.
Unless one devotes enormous amounts of time to the watching, studying and being educated of the terminology used in the political arena one can not know for a certainty that a yea vote will mean "yea" and a no vote will mean "no" because the wording on the ballots is so complicated.
I don't have, nor do I want to devote precious time to the things [matters and problems of this world] when I can better use the time in study of the New Kingdom of which I desire to belong. I am a pilgrim here, this world with all of its man-made problems is not my home or, I pray, yours' my brothers.
The problems here are out of control as it is prophecied it would be. There are so many laws on the books that anyone can find a way through a loop hole on any matter and if that isn't enough then the judicial system will over-step their authority and they (a handful) will change the laws of the majority.
Let us not lose sight of the "forest" for the "trees" as it were, dear brothers. Let us keep our sights on Him, who created us, and His Kingdom, remembering we are to be in the world but not of this world, for this world is not our home.
Give me evidence of our Blessed Savior campaigning, voting, protesting or in any other way trying to influence and/or change the political movements of His day on this planet, when it was just as bad if not worse than today and I will revise my thinking according to His perfect example.
Ahavah,
Yochanah
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Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Jul 19, 2004 11:08:03 GMT -8
You know, my friend told me a phrase that was pretty comical. "Hippies, hippies, they want to make everything better, but they only make it worse because they have too much sex and smoke to much."
What once was considered a "hippie" standpoint has become something that America itself, as a population, is striving to accept, even though the average American knows the problems with accepting many of these liberal stand points. I blame the fact that they took the Ten Commandments out of the school system. It is not the fact that they did it, although that did much, it was the fact that these politicians, in thier minds, wanted to remove God from school. That means that they had already lost respect for the divineness and they would never truly respect morality and decency.
I have read many Greek and Roman phylosophists and even way back then, those men realized two things that kept a society together. One, a commoness shared among the entire society, an axiom, a base. Two, the idea of a diety. Without the second, no one would obey moral or judicial laws. Why shouldn't I steal if I have nothing to lose in this or the next life.
The first was at one time freedom, not of religion and speech and all that; although that is good, but freedom from an oppressive government. Today that has changed. The second has been overcome by the agnostic and the athiest, who even as Charles Darwin writes in Origin of the Species, are the base and closest of all men to the ape. I agree with Darwin in this point, because a man's difference between animals is this: that he has a connection with diplomacy in all his undertakings, and that he has a supreme connection with a diety, false or true.
Comments?
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 19, 2004 16:05:20 GMT -8
El Gusano, I still don't think that just because the Heathen are multiplying like hotcakes that we should limit the number of godly children we bring into the world. We should trust G'd that He will use our children to bring about a change in the current trend as you stated, "children born out of wedlock now account for 50% of all children". The solution is always godliness, and the furthering of His Kingdom, not population control. And, how do we enlarge His Kingdom?...By increasing the number of His people. I submit that it is the ungodly, and sexually immoral that are causing any overpopulation, and if they wish to limit their children...they have my blessing. Yochanah stated... I think that the Biblical men of the past have not only made political statements, but have been involved in the politics of the nation in which they find themselves. Yeshua The Messiah Himself made the following political statement... "Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk. And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of G'd in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto G'd the things that are G-d's." - Matthew 22:15-21 I believe this conversation, and Yeshua's answer certainly had political ramifications. I also see that Yeshua in many cases got into political debates with many of the Jewish ruling authority of His time. And, what about Yochanan (John) The Immerser (Baptist) whom was described as one of the most righteous men whom lived on the face of the planet when he contended with the ruling authority of his time, and as a result had his head removed by that same authority? Or, what of Moshe whom contended with the political authority, and wrong doing of Pharoah of Egypt, and consequently affected the whole structure of Egypt when he led the Children Of Israel out? There are many other such examples of this in the scriptures. I would say that because we are citizens of another Kingdom, we should actively advance the commandments, ordinances, and statutes of The Kingdom of Heaven -where ever- we are. Chumash614, I agree with your statments in regards to the liberal law makers that seek to make things better, but because of their godless ways, things just get worse. It is the wisdom of man...when will we trust! Shalom, Reuel |
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Post by el Gusano on Jul 20, 2004 13:21:00 GMT -8
Perhaps we should be evangelizing these large, godless families, instead of making too many children of our own. Up here in the Russian villages and in the native villages, I have an opportunity to make an impact. In many of these places, God has sent one or two missionaries in and they have affected 40-50 people (these are villages with 200-300 people in them often).
I know a missionary in Australia who works with a group of people just like himself. They don't go out into the bush, they go to cities like Sydney. They go to the inner cities with the crack mothers and gang-bangers and reach their kids.
It can't all be done at once, but it must be started before it's too late. Instead of giving up on the kids of these godless people, work on them.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jul 20, 2004 14:04:11 GMT -8
Shalom El Gusano,
You stated...
Don't get me wrong, I am by no means saying that we should give up on the heathen. And, I agree that we should be busy bringing the Good News to all people. It is just that I think that we can do this while raising godly children whom will help effect that change.
Shalom brother,
Reuel
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Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Jul 21, 2004 10:01:54 GMT -8
I believe everyone is correct in whatever they think will better His Kingdom. Because no matter what happens, the idea is to save people from Gehinnom, so whoever Ruakh HaKhodesh allows you to save, you must go to those people in any way possible, without refusing certain people; anyone and everyone. (unless of course it disagrees with the scriptures in the way you wish to go to them.) The only real importance is that you accept Yohshuah HaMoshiach as Moshiach, and you accept all he says, anything above that is just opinions and discourse. |
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and everlasting contempt. [3] And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever." 
from Sinai and transmitted it to Yoheshuah; Yoheshuah to the Shoftim; the Shoftim to the Nev'yim; and the Nev'yim transmitted it throughout Judea. It came BACK to Yohshuah HaMoshiach who retransmitted it to the rest of the world through Reb Sha'ul and Reb Cephas.
