|
|
Post by Mishkan on Dec 11, 2005 0:11:16 GMT -8
This is an interesting section I came across while reading this evening. I thought I would share with everyone, and see if anyone had any particular thoughts about this text. I find it interesting because it speaks to Messiah's atoning suffering for the sins of his people.
Anyone have other observations?
===================================
[At the time of the king Messiah's creation], the Holy One will tell him in detail what will befall him: These souls that have been put away with you--their sins will put you in a yoke of iron and make you like a calf whose eyes grow dim [with suffering]. They will strangle your breath with the yoke, and because of the sins of these souls, your tongue will cleave to the roof of your mouth. Are you willing to endure such trials? The Messiah will ask the Holy One: Master of the universe, will my suffering last many years?
The Holy One will reply: Upon your life and the life of My head, I have decreed for you a period of seven years. But if your soul is saddened by the prospect of your suffering, I shall at this moment banish these sinful souls.
The Messiah will say: Master of universes, I take this suffering upon myself with joy in my soul and gladness in my heart, so that not one person in Israel may perish; that not only those who are alive may be saved in my days, but also those who are buried in the earth; not only those who died in my days, but also those who died ever since the days of Adam up to the time of redemption; and that not only these may be saved in my days, but also those who died as abortions; and that not only abortions, but all those the thought of whose creation came to Your mind but who were not created. Such are the things I desire, and for these I am ready to take upon myself [whatever You decree].
The sages said: During the seven-year period preceding the coming of [Messiah] son of David, iron beams will be brought and loaded upon the Messiah [son of Joseph's] neck, until his body is bent low. Then he will cry and weep, his voice will rise up to heaven, and he will say to God: Master of the universe, how much can my strength endure? How much can my spirit endure? How much my breath before it ceases? How much can my limbs suffer? Am I not flesh and blood?
|
|
|
|
Post by Mark on Dec 11, 2005 4:33:05 GMT -8
There is a "two messiahs" theory in Judaism that was spoken of in this month's "Messiah Magazine" by First Fruits of Zion. The idea is that the first Messiah is Messiah ben Joseph (a suffering Messiah) and the second Messiah ben David (a conquering Messiah).
More commonly, I've found in my discussion with Jewish people that any references to the Messiah other than as a Macabbee (Isaiah 53 for instance) as an alagorical description of the nation of Israel, herself.
We seem the same methods in the Church: nevermind what the words say, I will beat their definitions into shape until they fit my theology.
The Jew rejecting Yeshua as Messiah relies on six prophies for the basis of his rejection. These six are answered in his own conviction that there is a resurrection of the dead- Messiah had to die before completing these six. There are over 300 prophecies that validate Yeshua as Messiah. If they believe not Moses and the prophets, they will not be converted, even if one should rise from the dead.
At the same time, as the Spirit of Adonai works His way into hearts, such a story pricks at the foundations of this rejection. I pray that this text is used as a beacon to draw His people to Himself.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mishkan on Dec 11, 2005 10:06:30 GMT -8
This is an interesting section I came across while reading this evening. I thought I would share with everyone, and see if anyone had any particular thoughts about this text. I find it interesting because it speaks to Messiah's atoning suffering for the sins of his people. I was just sitting here free associating with this text. I realized there are several statements in the Gospels that correspond to what is written here. This, of course, fits with the rabbinic notion that Messiah was one of the seven things created before the foundations of the earth. I confess that I sometimes wonder if this is not the original intention of the Scriptures that speak of Messiah being, "the firstborn of creation". Christian theology makes a big fuss about the Messiah being "eternally co-existent with the Father". But I'm not sure that is the intention of the Biblical authors. But that is not the main point of this post. Wow! Could one describe any better the constraint imposed upon Yeshua? He died for our sakes because he loved us, and wanted to deliver us from the penalty of our sins. Some specific passages that come to mind are: Matthew 26.37,38; Matthew 26.53; Mark 14.33-36; Luke 22.41-45; Revelation 6.9,10 Interesting. Where do you suppose the rabbis got the idea that the Messiah would suffer for seven years? Does this not reflect the zeal and passion of Yeshua, as he "set his face" to go to Jerusalem for his final days (Luke 9.51)? Yeshua set aside the glory that he possessed in eternity, and "made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." To what end? "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name. That at the name of Yeshua every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Yeshua the Messiah is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2.9-11). Again, this so well describes Yeshua's sufferings! He who knew no sin was made to be sin for us (2 Corinthians 5.21). His back was bowed with the weight of his torture stake. His skin was ripped open by scourges. As the prophet wrote, "his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men" (Isaiah 52.14). Additionally, Hebrews tells us that this was somehow necessary for Yeshua's own character: "Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered" (Hebrews 5.7,8). Yes, the more I consider this passage, the more I appreciate its wonderful depiction of the death of Yeshua, who humbled himself to be like us, and then went the additional step of taking upon himself the suffering due us as the penalty for our sins. Baruch Hashem, for his wonderful gift of deliverance through the suffering, death, and resurrection of Yeshua the Messiah. Shalom, Mishkan David |
|
|
|
Post by Mishkan on Dec 11, 2005 10:25:52 GMT -8
There is a "two messiahs" theory in Judaism that was spoken of in this month's "Messiah Magazine" by First Fruits of Zion. The idea is that the first Messiah is Messiah ben Joseph (a suffering Messiah) and the second Messiah ben David (a conquering Messiah). Yep. That was, indeed, one of the approaches applied by the early commentators. After all, if you think about it... there are prophecies about the greatnes of Messiah, and also prophecies about a suffering servant. How would one reconcile these? The solution provided by Yeshua is that the Messiah must first suffer and die, and later return in glory to institute the grand and glorious Messianic Kingdom. More commonly, I've found in my discussion with Jewish people that any references to the Messiah other than as a Macabbee (Isaiah 53 for instance) as an allegorical description of the nation of Israel, herself. Yes. The problem is, until the time of Rashi, no one ever took this explanation seriously. Just as Christians live in a fog of Reformation theology, so modern Jews blindly accept a relatively recent theological innovation regarding the interpretation of Isaiah 53. We seem the same methods in the Church: nevermind what the words say, I will beat their definitions into shape until they fit my theology. I couldn't have said it better.  The Jew rejecting Yeshua as Messiah relies on six prophies for the basis of his rejection. You're right. The modern Jewish view is that there are a half-dozen tasks that must be accomplished before someone can be accepted as the Messiah. These things, interestingly enough, correspond the our expectation of what Yeshua will accomplish at his return. They include: - the regathering of Israel
- rebuilding of the Temple
- worldwide peace
- worldwide knowledge of God (as per Jeremiah 31)
At the same time, as the Spirit of Adonai works His way into hearts, such a story pricks at the foundations of this rejection. I pray that this text is used as a beacon to draw His people to Himself. Well said. Shalom, Mishkan David |
|
|
|
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Dec 13, 2005 16:57:09 GMT -8
I have read similar writings from early sages on the subject of Mashiach. They knew more than many give them credit for. What specific reference do you have for the passage you shared?
Shalom b'Yeshua,
Reuel
|
|
|
|
Post by Mishkan on Dec 13, 2005 21:40:53 GMT -8
I have read similar writings from early sages on the subject of Mashiach. They knew more than many give them credit for. What specific reference do you have for the passage you shared? Reuel, It is just identified as "Section 56" in the "Book of Legends." I picked up an electronic version of this work a few months ago, and every once in awhile, I just start reading in it at random points. Shalom, Mishkan David |
|
|
|
Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Dec 14, 2005 16:46:58 GMT -8
Todah achi!
|
|
