. . . or is it my imagination?

[Tzav_laTzav]

When I am with many of the churched people, they seem to have no qualms about verbally using words relating to the L-rd's name in vain, but among Messianics, this doesn't seem so. Do you, also, find this true, or is it my imagination?

For example, the churched often use the words, "L-rd" and "G-d" as epithets and bywords when surprised, angry, etc.

If you also find this to be so, can you annalyze what Messianism is doing right, that seems to limit such uses in your circles and what the churches may be missing?

If you haven't given this any thought before, would you mind just listening a little while, to see if this premise is so, then writing what you think?

[Pioneer]

Most all Christians have been taught that Jesus died to forgive them from their past, present and future sins. Also it was the God of the old testament who was prone to raining down punishment, but Jesus brought love to the forefront, no one fears Jesus.
Needn't worry about a few off colored remarks.
Noach tried to hide from God, but no one tries to hide today, because it is forgiven.
Seems they don't, perhaps, read Hebrews! Because it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. I also believe another appostle made a similar remark about sinning again after salvation.
Since I was not even a simi regular Church goer, I wouldn't know how the preachers got past those passages.

Shalom

[Tzav_laTzav]

I hadn't thought of that angle, but you're right. That certainly would influence behavior. I had that attitude myself at one time and even worse, based upon what I was taught in the churches.

The only angle I had thought of was that they are not taught respect for the Name; it just is not a big deal to them.

[Yochana]

Maybe it is the fact that most messianics I know don't use the word G-d, they usually say Adonai, Elohim or HaShem instead. And since those don't roll off the tongue quite as easily. "Oh G-d!" is easily said, but try saying "Oh Adonai!" - takes more thought/effort.

Just like people saying "Jesus Christ!' as a swear word - doesn't work so well when one says "Yeshua HaMashiach!"

So prehaps because messianics give a little more thought to the names of the Holy One, blessed be He, they don't find themselves falling into common (unclean?) useage.

[Tzav_laTzav]

That, also, sounds like legitimate reasoning. Thank you!

[Yitzchak]

I will take it a step further. Not only is there not as much respect for the names or titles attributed to HaShem. there is as little respect for his written word.

For instance, and these are some of my pet peeves. People in the church will think nothing of putting their bibles on the floor under their seat. People in the church will think nothing of reading their bibles in the bathroom.

I am blessed to occassionally take the to my home for safekeeping between services. On those days when I must roll the to a new portion, I would never for instance approach the in an inappropriate manner. I view it as the Living Word of G-d. Not enough people have the proper regard for G-d and His word.

Not only am I Messianic, but I was raised in Orthodox Judaism, so there is a far greater respect for things instilled at an early age.

As has been stated before, those in the church have this grace, grace, grace attitude, and forget the idea of sanctification and the need for holiness, which is what comes after the grace of salvation. We must walk this on a daily basis.

The problem with most I see is that they forget to be conformed to the image of HaBen in glory requires one to first be confirmed to His image in suffering.

Shabbat Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Yochana]

I agree Yitzchak. I was raised by parents that taught me to treat the bible with the utmost respect. Nothing was to be set on top of it, and to this day it bothers me when people treat it like it is any other book.

[Tzav_laTzav]

yitzchak said:

I will take it a step further. Not only is there not as much respect for the names or titles attributed to HaShem. there is as little respect for his written word.

For instance, and these are some of my pet peeves. People in the church will think nothing of putting their bibles on the floor under their seat. People in the church will think nothing of reading their bibles in the bathroom.

I am blessed to occassionally take the to my home for safekeeping between services. On those days when I must roll the to a new portion, I would never for instance approach the in an inappropriate manner. I view it as the Living Word of G-d. Not enough people have the proper regard for G-d and His word.

Not only am I Messianic, but I was raised in Orthodox Judaism, so there is a far greater respect for things instilled at an early age.

Okay. Then I ask you, Yochana, and and others of the same mind to teach on. I will ask some questions here.

• As a 57-year-old whose sight is beginning to fade, I bought a large looseleaf Bible for several reasons, including so that I could take just the portions I need to shul on Shabbat, because the Bible is very heavy, and because I need to take many other things in order to stay all day. I put just those pages in a three-ring binder, along with my siddur. Is that a problem? And if so, why?
  
• Am I wrong to stand my notebook with the portions of the Bible in it on the floor against my seat or to place it upon the floor during worship when it is unneeded?
  
• I left a church that strongly encouraged not putting anything upon a Bible, and I dropped that teaching upon leaving, because many there almost seemed to make their Bibles an idol. However, I think you two are making sense. How do we, where do we draw the line between idolizing the Bible and recognizing it for the that it is/contains? In other words, where are the boundaries?

[Rick]

I would never for instance approach the in an inappropriate manner. I view it as the Living Word of G-d. Not enough people have the proper regard for G-d and His word.

Yitzchak you are right on point. It breaks my heart to see the lack of reverence toward our Creator, Savior and the Holy Scriptures. In many of these "Churches", 'congregants' treat Prayer like they do their 'Bibles', no reverence, respect, or self examination. Yeshua showed us that above all it was the attitude of our Heart that matters most when approaching HaShem, whether in thought, Word, deed, Prayer or application. The irrelevance of the "Institutionalized" "Church" becomes more appearant with each passing year. Why can't these people see the plain meaning of the Scripture that they can quote "Chapter and Verse"?

[heavy sigh]
Shabbot Shalom,
Rick

[Tzav_laTzav]

• As a 57-year-old whose sight is beginning to fade, I bought a large looseleaf Bible for several reasons, including so that I could take just the portions I need to shul on Shabbat, because the Bible is very heavy, and because I need to take many other things in order to stay all day. I put just those pages in a three-ring binder, along with my siddur. Is that a problem? And if so, why?
  
• Am I wrong to stand my notebook with the portions of the Bible in it on the floor against my seat or to place it upon the floor during worship when it is unneeded?
  
• I left a church that strongly encouraged not putting anything upon a Bible, and I dropped that teaching upon leaving, because many there almost seemed to make their Bibles an idol. However, I think you two are making sense. How do we, where do we draw the line between idolizing the Bible and recognizing it for the that it is/contains? In other words, where are the boundaries?

Just in case, please understand that these are sincere questions. I am asking you to teach me. Thank you.

[Yitzchak]

Tzav,

When I refer to , keep in mind that I am referring to all that is contained in the bible.

Yeshua is the made flesh, and thus I see this as the embodiment of everything that He is, and chose to impart to us as His nature. I treat my bible with the same reverence that I would the that I read from every Shabbat.

I certainly see no problem in having a version of the bible that is convenient for you to see, however, I am not sure that I would be able to determine what exactly I need in my bible on any particular day. For me, I need all of it. Perhaps you might want to consider a smaller print bible that would be more compact, and a small magnifier. I know they also make sheets that act as an entire page magnifier.

In the book of Yochanan it reads, "In the beginning was the , and the was with G-d............................. and the became flesh and dwelt among us."

Your bible contains the names of G-d, and to me it is not idolizing, but placing a level of holiness on anything that contains the very essence of G-d.

I think my first two explanations answer your third question.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Tzav_laTzav]

Yitzchak, I really appreciate your answers and any more that may be written. I am very seriously considering what you have written.

I bought that particular Bible because I can more easily make notes in the margins, as well as type notes onto the pages. It is larger print, making it better for studying. When I carry it to shul, I carry a tiny whole Bible along with it, for the Scriptures that are not the particular portions chosen for the day. I can still read it with glasses, but I cannot make notations in it, because I cannot write small enough anymore.

Another reason I bought this particular one is because over the last 5 years, I have had to buy a Bible every single year, because they just are not making them as they used to, and they fall apart for me. Bibles cost too much for me to continue doing this, and I like my notes. With this looseleaf one, I bought two, so that if a page or two get ruined, I can just replace them from my spare Bible.

Regarding being the whole Word, I agree.

[Yitzchak]

tzavlatzav said:

Yitzchak, I really appreciate your answers and any more that may be written. I am very seriously considering what you have written.

I bought that particular Bible because I can more easily make notes in the margins, as well as type notes onto the pages. It is larger print, making it better for studying. When I carry it to shul, I carry a tiny whole Bible along with it, for the Scriptures that are not the particular portions chosen for the day. I can still read it with glasses, but I cannot make notations in it, because I cannot write small enough anymore.

Another reason I bought this particular one is because over the last 5 years, I have had to buy a Bible every single year, because they just are not making them as they used to, and they fall apart for me. Bibles cost too much for me to continue doing this, and I like my notes. With this looseleaf one, I bought two, so that if a page or two get ruined, I can just replace them from my spare Bible.

Regarding being the whole Word, I agree.

Tzav,

Sorry, I just assumed that was the only thing that you brought based on what you posted. I was just concerned that you have all the scriptures with you.

On the subject of bibles falling apart, I am with you. I had to make the decision recently regarding the bible that I have been preaching with for the past 13 years. The covers were being held on by staples, and frayed. I looked in to rebinding and thought it was too expensive.

I was at a recent conference speaking with another Rabbi, and he had just had his done, and we were laughing about how Jewish we were being.

When I realize the number of notes and highlights I have made in the last 13 years, the $80 I paid was a small sum. The bookbinder I found is in Oklahoma, and they do everything by hand, and with all old world equipment. They bind only in 100% real leather, not the bonded stuff that is used on most bibles today. This might not be in everyone's budget, but if you have that prized bible, it is worth every penny.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Tzav_laTzav]

Oh, that's all right -- no problem!

But another thing I have been thinking I should ask is ths; as I said, for a long period, I was buying a Bible basically each year, and they wree falling apart. What should we do with such Bibles, that pages and sections are falling out of? They are sitting about, unused, taking up space in shelves I would like to use otherwise. I had thought of burying them.

Furthermore, I have Bibles from back when I was in a cult. Being a note-keeper, these Bibles are full of notes, many of which are errant. What should we do with such Bibles as these?

[Tzav_laTzav]

By the way, Yitzchak, hoping you're having a great birthday!