Shadows of things to come

[Dim12trav]

Shalom:
The apostle Paul wrote about the law and the feast days as a shadows of things to come. In my study I have seen so many things are brought forth in the life and mission of Messiah that were shadowed in the Old testament.

When we see that which makes the shadow, what should be done with the shadow itself? Can we just worship that which makes the shadow or must we return to the shadow as though it were the real thing?

[Yitzchak]

dimtwelvetrav said:

Shalom:
The apostle Paul wrote about the law and the feast days as a shadows of things to come. In my study I have seen so many things are brought forth in the life and mission of Messiah that were shadowed in the Old testament.

When we see that which makes the shadow, what should be done with the shadow itself? Can we just worship that which makes the shadow or must we return to the shadow as though it were the real thing?

Please take no offense at my question, but I am curious about many of your posts.

It seems to me that rather than asking questions, as if you are searching, you seem to be making a statement.

There is nothing wrong with this of course, as you have every right to do so. However, it would be easier for me to participate in the discussion if I know the motive of the individual asking the questions.

So, I guess for me, and I don't speak for anyone else on this board, I would just like to know if you are trying to prove what we believe to be false?

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Dim12trav]

Not false but inconsistant.

As a Christian and not a Jew I find it rather interesting the mix of the two that is expressed here. The people here are the only messianic connection I have and as a person who has little history with this group, it is rather disconcerting all of these new Hebrew words and the variations of them.

Neither fish nor fowl and trying desparately to be both.

Maybe it is best if I just withdraw. I am not interested in insulting anyone here, but I just dont "get" what it means to be "messianic" at all. adieu

(PS, I'll hang around long enough for comments if there are any)

[Yitzchak]

dimtwelvetrav said:

Not false but inconsistant.

As a Christian and not a Jew I find it rather interesting the mix of the two that is expressed here. The people here are the only messianic connection I have and as a person who has little history with this group, it is rather disconcerting all of these new Hebrew words and the variations of them.

Neither fish nor fowl and trying desparately to be both.

Maybe it is best if I just withdraw. I am not interested in insulting anyone here, but I just dont "get" what it means to be "messianic" at all. adieu

(PS, I'll hang around long enough for comments if there are any)

My question was not meant to send you away, but merely to understand your perspective.

When someone does not understand something, they will normally ask questions.

Everyone here is willing, and able to answer any questions you have about what we believe.

Trying to understand the Messianic Movement is like saying you want to understand Christianity. There are just as many different groups, who believe differently, as there are denominations in the Church who disagree with each other.

Keep in mind the old saying, "Two Jews, Three Opinions" (smiling).

Please don't be so quick to up and leave. We don't grow if we are not challenged, and I for one appreciate the Iron Sharpening Iron. We all grow this way.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Dim12trav]

The simple "not spelling" the name of messiah for example.

What I grew up with is the intimate relationship with my God in which He knows everything about me and I am constantly in touch with Him.

MY teacher in this paints a picture of YHVH as having these hyphenate names such as YHVH-ushua and JHVH-Tzidkenu,

meaning L-rd my redeemer or The L-rd is my righteousness as two rexamples. But these names as not "out there" so holy I cannot even say them, yet again write them, They are already in my heart and I know them intimately. The idea that now I must throw them outside myself and pretend somehow that I dont have this relationship is very strange to me.

Part of the new covenant is this relationship. My G-d is not a national G-d but an intimate Husband or shepard to me, leading me in ways of His choosing.

Those who would take this away from me I dont need.

[Yitzchak]

dimtwelvetrav said:

The simple "not spelling" the name of messiah for example.

What I grew up with is the intimate relationship with my God in which He knows everything about me and I am constantly in touch with Him.

MY teacher in this paints a picture of YHVH as having these hyphenate names such as YHVH-ushua and JHVH-Tzidkenu,

meaning L-rd my redeemer or The L-rd is my righteousness as two rexamples. But these names as not "out there" so holy I cannot even say them, yet again write them, They are already in my heart and I know them intimately. The idea that now I must throw them outside myself and pretend somehow that I dont have this relationship is very strange to me.

Part of the new covenant is this relationship. My G-d is not a national G-d but an intimate Husband or shepard to me, leading me in ways of His choosing.

Those who would take this away from me I dont need.

You obviously have a misunderstanding of what Messianic Jews believe. It also seems that you do not have an understanding of the .

This is normal for one who has been raised in the church. If it makes you feel any better, I am a former church pastor. I was raised in Orthodox Judaism, but when I came to the L-rd many years later it was through the church.

It is difficult to make the paradigm shift from Church to Messianic, especially for those who do not have some Jewish foundation.

The G-d of the , is not a National G-d, but the intimate Father, and Husband that you speak of. Unfortunately, the Hellenists have taught otherwise for over 2000 years.

Nobody here, and no Messianic Jew would attempt to take this away from you.

Those of us who choose to not speak, or not write out the names of G-d do so out of an Awe, and Holiness that is simply not displayed anymore in my opinion.

You must keep in mind that Yeshua was the same G-d of the original covenant. I think this is one of the main misconceptions of Judaism. That somehow there is this far off, distant, angry, National G-d, that is not concerened with an intimate relationship with His people. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I don't know who your teacher is, and certainly don't want to judge him, but there is much to learn, and I would challenge you to remain.

Ask questions, not with a preconceived notion, or with agenda, but with an honest desire to hear another side of things. I am not saying that you should just accept what anybody has to say blindly, but listen, and then check the scriptures for yourself, and most importantly pray, and ask HaShem to reveal the truth to you through the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit).

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

[Chizuk Emunah]

v'imru amein.

[Dim12trav]

Yitchak thank you for some dialogue.

to preface my comments; My teacher which I referred to earlier is Dr. Gene Scott of Los Angeles now passed into the eternities. He spoke and wrote 16 languages including Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, Ethiopic, Arminian, Latin, Greek and others. I saw him lecturing and writing on the board using six languages at a time explainning the differences and which line of translation holds to the closest to the original. His Bible collection which still is open to public viewing is literally the best in the world (including Hebrew Torahs by the way).

(no I dont have his facility with languages I can barely write correctly in English my own language)

That being said: I feel that I have gotten a good representative understanding of the ways of messianic Jewry. I hold nothing against any of you but I do not need this for myself so I will bow out.

Thanks for everything.

Sahlom

[Yitzchak]

dimtwelvetrav said:

Yitchak thank you for some dialogue.

to preface my comments; My teacher which I referred to earlier is Dr. Gene Scott of Los Angeles now passed into the eternities. He spoke and wrote 16 languages including Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, Ethiopic, Arminian, Latin, Greek and others. I saw him lecturing and writing on the board using six languages at a time explainning the differences and which line of translation holds to the closest to the original. His Bible collection which still is open to public viewing is literally the best in the world (including Hebrew Torahs by the way).

(no I dont have his facility with languages I can barely write correctly in English my own language)

That being said: I feel that I have gotten a good representative understanding of the ways of messianic Jewry. I hold nothing against any of you but I do not need this for myself so I will bow out.

Thanks for everything.

Sahlom

As I said before, I was not judging your teacher, and of course he had some incredible credentials. However, there are many men who have great educations, and have wonderful knowlege, but don't have the Spirit of G-d.

I am just curious, before you go off, what do you base your statement that you have gotten a "representative understanding of messianic jewry" on. What understanding do you have of the ways of Messianic Judaism? You have really never stated your views, or asked any questions that I can tell.

So, are you saying you already had an understanding before you came here? I think you are writing this thing off a little too soon. I think you would do well to stay and continue the dialogue with us.

I would miss you, and the challenge.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Mercedes]

Shalom Dim12trav,

Before you run off I thought I would offer a reply to the "Shadow." The Festivals are in fact a shadow of things to come for we read in Zech 14, at the end of Armageddon when there is neither night or day but one continuous day, 16 "And it shall be, everyone who is left from all the nations which came up against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King Jehovah of Hosts, and keep the Feast of tabernacles. 18 "Plague shall strike the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles."
The Feast is now approaching and my King is only in my heart and not yet on his Holy mountain, and neither is Brittan, China, Russia, or any other country concerned about sending delegates to keep the Feast of tabernacles because we still live in the shadow and hope of the realities soon to come.
Those who set aside these Holy Days now during the time of trial and testing will soon be begging to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles and learn the customs of God's people.
Shalom

[Yitzchak]

dimtwelvetrav said:

Shalom:
The apostle Paul wrote about the law and the feast days as a shadows of things to come. In my study I have seen so many things are brought forth in the life and mission of Messiah that were shadowed in the Old testament.

When we see that which makes the shadow, what should be done with the shadow itself? Can we just worship that which makes the shadow or must we return to the shadow as though it were the real thing?

I have chosen to give you my take on the question of Shadows relating to your original question. This is a post from another thread in, which I answered regarding a similar question.

I hope this clears some things up for you.

Please read below

Shalom,

Yitzchak

What is happening here is what happens most often, and that is the mistranslation from the Greek.

A proper rendering of this passage from the Greek would be:

Col 2:16

Meé (no/not) oún (therefore) tis (any man) humás (you) krinétoo (Let judge) en (in) broósei (meat) kaí (and) en (in) pósei (drink) eé (or/either) en (in) mérei (respect) heorteés (of a feast day) eé (or) neomeenías (of a new moon) eé (or) sabbátoon (of sabbath days)

Col 2:17

há (which) estin (are) skiá (a shadow) toón mellóntoon (of the things to come) tó (the) dé (but) soóma (body) toú Christoú (of Christ).


Taking this into consideration, verse 16 would best be translated as

"Therefore, do not let anyone judge you in food/meat and in drink - (either) as part of (or "with regards to") a festival or a new moon or (the) sabbaths ..."

More importantly, there is NO "IS" at the end of verse 17 regarding the Body of Messiah. It does not say the "substance is of Messiah"

It is amazing that this is one of the only scriptures where the greek word "sooma" is translated as "substance" rather than "body". All of the other 147 instances used has it properly translated.

If one does an in depth study on this passage, using the proper tranlation techniques they will find that what Paul is teaching is the following:

The only one's who were to judge regarding food and drink as it regarded festivals, Sabbaths, and New Moon celebrations was the Messianic Community, and its Leaders.

What was happening in Collosae and the message Rav Shaul was trying to convey throughout this chapter is this:

People with little or no connection with the true body of the Messiah are causing a lot of damage to the fellowship of believers. They deceive the believers with fine-sounding arguments (Col 2:4). They come from an angle of deceptive philosophy, depending on human tradition and the basic principles of the world, rather than on the Messiah (Col 2:8). They delight in false humility and the worship of angels, they are unspiritual in their minds and puffed up with idle notions (Col 2:18). They have no connection with the Head of the body, which is the Messiah Himself (Col 2:19). They are adherents of a self-imposed worship, based on human commands and human teachings (Col 2:22-23). The believers should be on the alert for the negative influence of these people and not to allow themselves to be deceived or sidetracked by them in any way.

Let us therefore complete the translation which does justice to both the grammatical content and wider context of Col 2:16-17: "Therefore, do not let anyone judge you in food and in drink, (either) as part of (or "with regards to") a festival or a new moon or (the) sabbaths - which are a shadow of the things to come - but the body of Messiah." Let the body of Messiah be the only people who help you to decide over matters of eating and drinking. No one else is suited for this responsibility. No one else understands the spiritual meaning of the appointed times where this eating and drinking normally take place. People from outside the body of believers have no idea that the festivals and new moons and sabbaths are a shadow, a reflection backward in time, of the things to come. The only people that can appreciate and know the value of the things to come, are the members of the body of the Messiah. These are the only ones you should listen to when making decisions of this nature.

Shalom again,

Yitzchak

[The 614th Mitzvot]

Let us remember that as their exist problems in the church so their exist problems in messianic Judaism; none are perfect. Even Pastors and Ravs can be wrong from time to time even Eliyahu HaNavi (Elijah the prophet) was wrong on a few occasions.

[CalledOut05]

I always keep in mind that G'd is a perfect being using imperfect means (Us). That is why He had to come down here and show us himself!