Very interesting stuff!

[Blake]

Bear with me, its a long quote but very interesting:

"The Socinian churches of Eastern Europe and the Netherlands more rigorously equated the Christian sabbath with the Jewish Shabbat. Sunday observance was abandoned in favor of a more Biblical observance of the Sabbath, leading to a revival of seventh-day sabbatarianism. The influence of the Socinians was felt among the Anabaptists in the Netherlands. A small number of them adopted Saturday as the day of worship. This small Seventh-day sect finally abandoned Christianity for orthodox Judaism. Seventh-day sabbatarianism did not become prevalent to any degree among Protestants, until it was revived in England by several groups of English Baptists, and through them the doctrine spread to a few churches in other denominations. Unitarian and seventh day leaders and churches were persecuted as heretics by the Trinitarian and Sunday-observing establishment, in England."

I find that very interesting... I had no idea a group of early protestants became orthodox jews.

The current messianic and christian observance movements are mirrored here.... Many Adventists and former Worldwide Church of God members having been shown a glimmer of light decide to fully open their eyes and follow the whole of the Law.

Praises be to HaSheim!

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Blake,

Thank you for sharing this. It is very incouraging to see many 7th day Adventists and other similar denominations begin to understand that is for them!

Shalom,

Reuel

[LovingNeighbor]

Shalom all,
Well that's interesting, I don't know if it's good or bad, Out of the frying pan maybe. Jumping from christianity to Orthodox Judiasm may not be the best move. Some older works show groups of christians who went from christianity then to sabbath keeping then to full judiasm and non belief in Messiah. I think they are going from one extreme to the other.

We should go from Messiah based faith to based faith in the Messiah, Jews should go from Judiasm to based faith in Messiah. but many jews become christian and christian become Jews to no gain. As Revelations states Here is the patience of the saints, here are they who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Yeshua
Shalom

[Mark]

Here in the NW, we have seen several occassions where Christians have joined or started a Messianic congregation, they began learning the Jewish liturgy and began to function in a way that looked more like a Jewish synagogue, they began to learn Hebrew, and within a very short time (less than a year) completely abandoned faith in Yeshua as Messiah and converted fully to Judaism.

At first, we are bewildered, thinking that this is incredible; but when you do a little investigating, it makes a lot of sense.

Many leave Christianity and become Messianic because they see the Christian perspective as hollow- a form of religion without the substance of intimacy: just go there and give your money on Sunday and God'll think you're just swell. The synagogue form of worship is much more corporate. The Hebrew liturgy is much more engaging; but if that is the draw, we are replacing one shell for another.

Jews have been combating Christian arguements for 1900 years. They've gotten very good at it. If you are are not grounded in , if you do not understand the context of the Hebrew Scriptures, their arguements that Jesus is not the Messiah are just as convincing as the arguements that the Church has that Jesus did away with the Law (using the same eisegetical methodology).

Lovingneighbor hit it on the head. Know and grow in . The Hebraic perspective of Scriptures cannot be held superior to the Scriptures themselves, else we are moving from one hypocrisy to another.

[messimom]

AMEN AMEN AND AMEN!

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Lovingneighbor hit it on the head. Know and grow in .

Amein v'amein. I do believe there is a balance. Obviously, if one is just in love with the Jewish culture and simply adopts a venear of Hebraic culture and Jewishness...this falls far short of being grounded in ...And, this is abviously a common problem that needs to be addressed. One must be grounded in . Although, I believe that Hebraic perspective is essential to understanding this in which we are to be grounded.

Many evangelical Christians also believe they are grounded in TeNaKh, although they practice lawlessness. As one joins the people of Yisrael and it's covenants they will inevitably take on many of their practices and customs as they become one people (as was the case with Ruth)...

There will no doubt be the occasional story of one whom converts to Rabbinic Judaism and rejects Yeshua The Messiah...In fact, I know people whom have done so...But, this is in the hands of Adonai. All we can do is what Adonai has called us to and be examples. Although, for those whom -truly- know Yeshua...I don't believe that we will see this problem very often (if at all). If a Gentile has chosen a observant life, there is a balance. But, such ones should not totaly alienate themselves from the people of Yisrael and their customs which accompany observance (as many do). If they do, they will damage their witness and will not be able to dwell with their brethren in unity.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[Ashirah]

Mark said, "The Hebraic perspective of Scriptures cannot be held superior to the Scriptures themselves, else we are moving from one hypocrisy to another."

I've not heard it said any better than that Mark.

We saw it happen in our group. ANOTHER man made religion became more important than the Scriptures. It was painful to see people go from one legalistic group to another legalistic group. From one blindness to another blindness.

[Ashirah]

I wanted to clarify what I wrote in my previous post.

It became man-made because of the legalism that abounded in the people. My point is what "religions" become when the people become legalistic.

I don't know if that clarifies it but I didn't want the point to be on the religion or the group but what people make them become when legalism becomes doctrine.

There are many religions but only one . If ANY group moves away from it becomes man-made. THAT is the distinction I wanted to make.

[Mark]

Man very clearly represents his nature when he ceases to speak what God has said and begins to speak on God's behalf. The same thread of malice and hatred is shared by every religion. There are passages in Talmud that are just as hateful and malicious as anything found in the Koran. There are Christian doctrines equally horrific.

It's our tendany to throw up our hands in dispair and say, "See, they're all alike! We can't trust any of them!" The , sickenning truth is that they are all alike and we're just like them. There is none righteous. There is none that understands. There is none that seeks after good. We are all together altogether unprofitable = a combined sum of worthlessness.

But that's where Adonai delights to take ashes and turn them into beauty. Two verses that I always read together are Jeremiah 17:9 "the heart of man is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things, who can know it?" and 1st John 3:20: "but of out heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart and knows all things."

I've seen powerfully used men of God in the Church. I've seen holy and righteous sages in Judaism. I've met Catholics who have the presence of the Holy Spirit. It's possible, though I've never had the opportunity of meeting one, for even a Mormon to be walking with Adonai, if he values the Scriptures more than the Mormon hogwash.

I suppose, if I were to bring a point to this, I was asked yesterday about a "revival meeting" that's going to be taking place in my town this week-end. The woman said, "Do you think the Holy Spirit could really manifest Himself at such a meeting? Is it worth going?" I answered, "If you go there to meet with God, He'll be there. It doesn't matter what else is going on."

We try so hard to place our confidence in people- in the theologies and doctrines that others hold, in the teachings of men (sometimes who have very godly perspectives). The Talmud has incredible insights and very biblical perspectives; but it's not . We stand very solidly on some doctrines promoted by Martin Luther; but we certainly don't hold him up as an inspired author of Canon.

Yet, be us in synagogue, church or where ever. Scripture promises that if we diligently seek Him, we will find Him.

[Firestorm]

???True. Though the way that the Mormon church is set up it's hard to see how one could distance oneself from the "Mormon hogwash" and still remain in the Mormon church. The Mormons are light years away from most of the Christian churches doctrinally, but not in a good, i.e. biblical, way.