Christmas: Pagan or Biblical?

[Rick]

OK, lets give it a whirl, might be an interesting ride
I personally feel after hours of research that 99.99% of what Christians observe today in "Christmas"is indeed a sanitized and repackaged Pagan festival. The "Church Fathers" seeking to blend into an established practice themselves fell into a form of Idolatry, and as a result led multitudes astray.

Jer 16:19 O YHWH, my strength and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the nations shall come to You from the ends of the earth, and shall say,Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and there is no profit in them.

Amo 2:4 So says YHWH: For three transgressions of Y'hudah, yea for four, I will not turn away from it; because they have despised the Laws of YHWH, and have not kept His commandments. And their lies after which their fathers walked led them astray.

An analogy might be; When Moshe was receiving the Law on Sinai
and the people thought they would make an image in order to worship YHWH, a symbol if you will.
What they thought would honor Hashem, was in fact a detestable transgression in His eyes. Hashem judged them for this abomination in His sight.

What many practice today in the spirit of honoring Yeshuas' birth and remembering his sacrifice, may instead be seen differently by Eloah.

Just a couple of thoughts to stimulate discussion.

Shalom B' Yeshua
Rick

[Rick]

Natanel ben-Avigdor, made the following relative points in another thread;

As for the whole Christmas spiel... Let's take a look at the facts of this so-called "Holy Day" shall we?

1. Yeshua was not born on Christmas day
- his true birthday can be determined through that of his cousin's Yochanan)
2. The Magi were not present at his birth
- in fact it is highly probable (and Scripture appears to support it) that they didn't reach him until he was 3 yrs old
3. Saturnalia
- this was celebrated by the Romans every year from Dec. 13th - Dec. 25th
- common themes included resting from work and exchanging gifts
4. The Christmas Tree
- originated with the Celtic Druids in which they would place decorations upon it
- later adopted by the Romans for the feast of Saturnalia
5. The Yule Log
- Comes from a Norse tradition in which the pagan god Odin was worshipped
- this is also where the custom of leaving food for "Santa Claus" comes from
6. Mistletoe
- Comes from a Celtic Druid celebration as well as Norse tradition
7. Eggnog
- Comes from the Germanic word grog meaning "any drink made with rum", a strong drink for the times to incite further frivolity and chaos.
8. Holly Wreath
- used by the Druids, as they believed it had magical properties
- also adopted later by the Romans who exchanged wreaths as gifts during Saturnalia
9. Santa Claus
- Comes from none other than the Norse god Odin

So.... With all those pagan elements associated with Christmas, are you sure you still want to celebrate it? Even if you say you are doing it because of the Messiah's birth, you must know that he wasn't even born on that day.

I found the same myself and a few others.
Rick

[Pioneer]

When we begin, anything, it should be EMET/Truth! The whole truth. Only the story is true the rest is PHONY, it is easy to find the reasons for the holiday. Any secular encyclopedia will give the origin of the holiday and it has nothing to do with the birth of the Messiah.

Here is one of my proverbs, " It only takes a little leven/sin, to leven a child."
Then; What part of the truth is December 25th?

50 years of my life, I spent involved in Christmas! Jn.8:31 ¶ Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Thank you Lord, I am free, free at last!

[Yitzchak]

I find it quite interesting how upset mainstream Christianity gets when you question their celebration of Christmas.

It has been shown that most of these practices are pagan in nature, and do not come from a Biblical understanding.

However, see how upset they get when one of their friends talk about letting their kids go out and Trick or Treat for Halloween.

See how they justify Harvest Festivals as a replacement, rather than teaching their children why we don't celebrate a holiday that is pagan, and demonic.

Just don't question the way they celebrate Christmas. I do like the comparison between the Agel (calf), and the Christmas celebration.

We need to remember that teaches us the nature of G-d, and the prescribed way in which we are able to approach HaShem. Nadav, and Avihu learned quickly that are consequences for coming before a Holy G-d with their own idea of worship.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Mark]

Yes, it's sort of like mentioning that pork chops are an abomination before God.

At the same time, Christmas, for me is an incredibly valuable tool. No other season are complete strangers so open to entering into conversations that are so intimately religious. While Christmas is intrinsicly secular (counter-pagan); the Catholics did a good job of presenting some good imagery to launch into teaching doctrines that we otherwise may never have the opportunity to share.

My favorite is the candy cane. It is obviously shaped as a shepherd's crook to remind us that Yeshua is the Good Shepherd who cares for His sheep. This launches right into the story of the One who left the ninety nine in order to search for the one lost lamb. It is pure white on the inside, representing that He is the only pure One. It is streaked with red, reminding us of His sacrifice of blood. I have also been told the peppermint is the closest flavor we can come to the flavor of hyssop, which was a medicinal herb of the day: the herb that was used to strike the door posts with blood at the Passover from Egypt, the herb that was presented to the Messiah with vinegar when He hung on the cross.

The Christmas tree has actually three distinct origins. One is well known as the pagan worship; but that tree wasn't an evergreen and it wasn't cut down. It was a young sappling that was to be dug up and brought into the home and cared for in gratititude for "mother earth" caring for the people all through the summer months. The evergreen was introduced in Germany by a bishop wishing to demonstrate the concept of "Trinity". It has three distinct points when we look at it from the side; but when we look down from the top, it is a circle.

The lights on the tree was a concept that came from our hero Martin Luther. He was looking into the stars one night remembering God's promise to Abraham- that his descendants would outnumber the stars of the sky. Wanting to retain that image, he hacked down a tree (again, not an evergreen) brought it into his study and put candles all over it. You can see the launching pad this gives to share the good news of our Messiah.

I take full advantage of Christmas. I use it in teaching my children, my neighbors, my co-workers and anyone who will listen. For me, it is not unlike Paul's use of the idol to the "Unknown God" of Mars Hill in Athens (Acts 17).

At the same time, I'm embarrassed by the scandal that is being stirred these days who push "Christ" as the meaning of Christmas. They don't push all of the Saints on All Hallow's Eve, they don't push Aphrodite on Easter (Easter is Latin for Aphrodite) nor even push the message of redemption; rather participate fully in the secularism. Yet, for some reason, the Christrian is scandalized when everyone else remains secular when they decide they want to get all spiritual. I'm, indeed, frustrated by the whole scenario.

[Chizuk Emunah]

Thanks for re-posting that Rick. It took me a while to dig all that stuff up.


--------Off Topic-------

The lights on the tree was a concept that came from our hero Martin Luther.

Hero??? Martin Luther??? Not my hero. He hated the Jews. It is said that Adolph Hitler (May his name and memory be blotted out) drew some of his ideas on dealing with Jews from Martin Luther.

-------On Topic--------

I take full advantage of Christmas. I use it in teaching my children, my neighbors, my co-workers and anyone who will listen.

But should we use it as a teaching tool? Did not HaShem command us to be a holy, set-apart people, separating ourselves from all that which is pagan?

After reading what you posted about the candy cane I was curious and went and did some digging. Here's what I found:

reprinted from inventors.about.com/od/foodrelatedinventions/a/candy_canes.htm

[/u]
Birth of the Candy Cane
Around the seventeenth century, European-Christians began to adopt the use of Christmas trees as part of their Christmas celebrations. They made special decorations for their trees from foods like cookies and sugar-stick candy. The first historical reference to the familiar cane shape goes back to 1670, when the choirmaster at the Cologne Cathedral in Germany, bent the sugar-sticks into canes to represent a shepherd's staff. The all-white candy canes were given out to children during the long-winded nativity services.
The clergymen's custom of handing out candy canes during Christmas services spread throughout Europe and later to America.

The canes were still white, but sometimes the candy-makers would add sugar-roses to decorate the canes further.
The first historical reference to the candy cane being in America goes back to 1847, when a German immigrant called August Imgard decorated the Christmas tree in his Wooster, Ohio home with candy canes.


The Stripes
About fifty years later the first red-and-white striped candy canes appeared. No one knows who exactly invented the stripes, but Christmas cards prior to the year 1900 showed only all-white candy canes. Christmas cards after 1900 showed illustrations of striped candy canes. Around the same time, candy-makers added peppermint and wintergreen flavors to their candy canes and those flavors then became the traditional favorites.[/quote]

[Firestorm]

???I think mark was being sarcastic when referring to "our hero" Martin Luther (hence the smiley face beside the statement).
I agree with most of what Mark said aside from his statement that Easter is a word of Latin origin. It's not and interestingly is only used in English speaking countries. Other languages use variants of the word "paschal".
Yes, much about our modern Christmas is pagan, but once you get rid of the pagan stuff I can't see what's wrong with acknowledging Yeshua's birth and even more importantly taking full advantage of the opportunity to share one's faith. I hate to break this to some of you , but I am by far not the person in the Messianic community saying this.
No, Yeshua probably wasn't born on December 25th and biblical scholars vary in their opinion of when He was. If we wish to be sticklers about historical accuracy the modern Jewish calendar differs from the biblical calendar and some in my congregation have told me that some of the modern Jewish holidays are in fact, not celebrated at the same time they were in the bible. If the latter statement is true then the Messianic community will have to set this straight or lose credibility in the historical accuracy argument.
Yes, believers need to be set apart, but we won't all be in agreement about the details of what that involves and, I think, need to exercise patience and humility with those whose interpretations differ from our own. Secondly, I think it's possible to use the concept of being "set apart" as an excuse to so isolate ourselves that we have no more testimony.
It also strikes me that far to much glory is being given to Satan here. I get the impression, from many of the postings I've read, that he's so powerful that God can barely get a word in edgewise. GOD ALONE is all powerful!! We need to start concentrating more on that and take every opportunity we can to share that with those who don't believe. Too much precious time is being wasted quibbling.

[Chizuk Emunah]

I think Mark was being sarcastic when referring to "our hero" Martin Luther (hence the smiley face beside the statement).

Perhaps that is the case... If so, I apologize Mark. Ever since I read some of his later anti-Semitic writings I have been strongly opposed to any of his teachings.

I agree with most of what Mark said aside from his statement that Easter is a word of Latin origin.

Agreed. It is not of Latin origin at all.

The name "Easter" originated with the names of an ancient goddess and god. The Venerable Bede, (672-735 CE.) a Christian scholar, first asserted in his book De Ratione Temporum that Easter was named after Eostre (a.k.a. Eastre). She was the Great Mother goddess of the Saxon people in Northern Europe.

Similarly, as reported in Biblical Archeaology Review (Vol. 18, Number 3, 1992) by Larry Boemler "Asherah and Easter," the "Teutonic dawn goddess of fertility [was] known variously as Ostare, Ostara, Ostern, Eostra, Eostre, Eostur, Eastra, Eastur, Austron and Ausos." Her name was derived from the ancient word for spring: "eastre."

So no, "Easter" is not of Latin origin. ----- Sorry Mark ----- But now we're getting off topic.

Yes, much about our modern Christmas is pagan, but once you get rid of the pagan stuff I can't see what's wrong with acknowledging Yeshua's birth and even more importantly taking full advantage of the opportunity to share one's faith.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with acknowledging Yeshua's birth. For those who want to celebrate it, do it during Sukkot... his actual birth time. And again, there is nothing wrong with sharing your faith either, so long as you're doing it in a non-threatening manner.

I hate to break this to some of you , but I am by far not the only? person in the Messianic community saying this.

I don't doubt that that is the case. I too thought the same thing once....

If we wish to be sticklers about historical accuracy the modern Jewish calendar differs from the biblical calendar and some in my congregation have told me that some of the modern Jewish holidays are in fact, not celebrated at the same time they were in the bible. If the latter statement is true then the Messianic community will have to set this straight or lose credibility in the historical accuracy argument.

Actually, the current Rabbinic calendar as set forth by Rabbi Hillel II is extremely accurate.

Secondly, I think it's possible to use the concept of being "set apart" as an excuse to so isolate ourselves that we have no more testimony.

I would argue that there is a big difference between being isolationist and being set-apart to HaShem. It involves living in this world, but not being assimilated by it.

[Mark]

The statement I made about Martin Luther was intended as tongue in cheek. Yet, considering it this morning, and knowing some of the history of this "early Church father", it wasn't funny. I appologize for my brash insensitivity.

The beautiful thing about history is that if no one ever challenges it, you can make it anything you want it to be. The beautiful thing about the internet is that you can always find someone to back you up. There are several sites that confirm the research I had done years ago concerning the origins of Easter; but I am grateful for you to challenge anything that I might have come uip with (much learning makes one muddled and the rest of us were muddled to begin with).

I think my sources (from way back) had established "Easter" as having latin origins because of its similarities to the word "oestrus"; but this is speculation and using the research of someone I've never heard of because my own pride has been challenged. I'm certainly no student of Latin, nor or Anglo-Saxon.

At any rate, the modern customs of Easter associate more closely to a pagan fertility goddess (the name varies geographically; but the practices are often similar- involving bunnies and eggs and the like).

People are often surprised to learn that Mardi Gra has a Catholic connection as well. Shrove Tuesday is a feast that precedes the celebration of Lent.

I would never condemn you who have taken a stand against Christmas or any other secular invention that imposes upon the purity of our faith. Yet, in the hopes of bringing some to the truth of Adonai, I want to use every advantage in proclaiming the hope of our returning Messiah. If this position I now hold is found in anyway to be a compromise of my relationship with Adonai (choosing this world above the kingdom of Adonai) then I will stand condemned and I pray that the Spirit of Adonai shows me the twisted logic of my heart ere I lead others astray. Yet, I believe I'm much more effective for the Kingdom by sharing what is true about Christmas and how it demonstrates the nature and character of Adonai's love for us, than I am for condemning the ignorant practices.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

But should we use it as a teaching tool? Did not HaShem command us to be a holy, set-apart people, separating ourselves from all that which is pagan?

Oy vey! Christmas…or Channukah? It is an easy choice. What did Yeshua do? We certainly have plenty to teach about Yeshua from the celebration of Channukah, although, if the subject of Christmas must come up Mark does have a point about the method Sha’ul (Paul) employed regarding the pagan altar to the “Unkown God”. His use of this method was extremely limited, but in extreme circumstances I believe it is permissible if only to immediately redirect the individual in the right direction…in other words, I don’t think once the subject is brought up that we should dwell on Christmas, but bring it back to as Sha’ul always did.

One is well known as the pagan worship; but that tree wasn't an evergreen and it wasn't cut down.

For the sake of safely establishing the pagan origins of the Christmas tree Yermiyahu (Jer.) 10 indicates that the practice did originate with the cutting of the tree….

“thus says YHVH, "Don't learn the way of the nations, and don't be dismayed at the signs of the sky; for the nations are dismayed at them. For the customs of the peoples are vanity; for one cuts a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it not move. They are like a palm tree, of turned work, and don't speak: they must be carried, because they can't go. Don't be afraid of them; for they can't do evil, neither is it in them to do good.”
Vs 2-5

Hero??? Martin Luther??? Not my hero. He hated the Jews. It is said that Adolph Hitler (May his name and memory be blotted out) drew some of his ideas on dealing with Jews from Martin Luther.

I too understood this as a joke. But, thank you Mark for apologizing to anyone whom may have been offended.

Yes, much about our modern Christmas is pagan, but once you get rid of the pagan stuff I can't see what's wrong with acknowledging Yeshua's birth and even more importantly taking full advantage of the opportunity to share one's faith.

As you pointed out it is of course not even close to the birth of Messiah. The date was picked as it was the day a pagan god (sun god) was celebrated. We know from the scriptures that G’d hates when we worship Him with the use of pagan practices….. When we spend a little time thinking about this…the use of a day specifically chosen because it was the day to celebrate a pagan god…. Let it not be! Whether one wishes to acknowledge it, or not…this is truly a slap in the face of the Most High. All I can say is for those whom have not yet done so…repent. I say this without apology.

If we wish to be sticklers about historical accuracy the modern Jewish calendar differs from the biblical calendar and some in my congregation have told me that some of the modern Jewish holidays are in fact, not celebrated at the same time they were in the bible.

Most likely you are referring to those whom adhere to the “Barley Harvest” method which is itself very questionable. I echo Natanel’s sentiments, the calendar we have for the most part is very accurate with only a few minor discrepancies dealing with Rabbinic halachah.

Truly, there is no scriptural reason for any true believer in Yeshua The Messiah to celebrate Christmas. First Fruits of Zion has a great resource called “The Light In The Darkness” which I recommend to everyone here on the forum to pick up a copy. Click the following link to purchase your copy: www.ffoz.org/Resource/lightinthedark.shtml

If you are new to this discussion, please purchase a copy of this great resource before you set any of your opinions in stone.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[Chizuk Emunah]

Oy vey! Christmas…or Channukah? It is an easy choice. What did Yeshua do? We certainly have plenty to teach about Yeshua from the celebration of Channukah, although, if the subject of Christmas must come up Mark does have a point about the method Sha’ul (Paul) employed regarding the pagan altar to the “Unkown God”. His use of this method was extremely limited, but in extreme circumstances I believe it is permissible if only to immediately redirect the individual in the right direction…in other words, I don’t think once the subject is brought up that we should dwell on Christmas, but bring it back to as Sha’ul always did.

I would agree with this.

Hero??? Martin Luther??? Not my hero. He hated the Jews. It is said that Adolph Hitler (May his name and memory be blotted out) drew some of his ideas on dealing with Jews from Martin Luther.


I too understood this as a joke. But, thank you Mark for apologizing to anyone whom may have been offended.

I didn't get it.... My apologies for being so brash...

[Nathaniel]

Shalom!

What does everyone think of this verse? Colossians 2:16 - "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
judge - (krinō) by implication to try, condemn, punish
holyday - (heortē) a festival; 1. An occasion for feasting or celebration, especially a day or time of religious significance that recurs at regular intervals.

Nathaniel

[messimom]

[ftp]http://theloveofgod.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=messianic&action=display&n=1&thread=81&page=1[/ftp]

Shalom, Nathaniel.

Try the above link for an excellent break down of that exact verse from another thread on the board. You will find the explanation by Yitzchak in response #11 of that topic. What is says makes a lot of sense and clarifies that mysterious verse.

Shalom

Messimom

[Nathaniel]

Shalom Messimom,

Thank you, that clarifies it.

Nathaniel

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Todah Messimom.