Is Messiah Jewish?

[Mark]

We easily miss the greatness of Adonai's capacity to love by trying so hard to fit ourselves into His special covenant relationship with the Hebrew people.

His chosen people, the people of covenant are the decends of Jacob, sur-named Israel. In this lineage Eloheem has chosen to make Himself known to the world, by this people, Adonai has chosen to offer life and mercy to the world. Of this people, YHWH has manifested Himself and the oracles which define His relationship to all mankind.

I am a gentile. I am not a child of the covenant. The New Covenant is not a covenant to the church, as many have asserted, it is not to all the world; but it is to Israel (Jeremiah 31:31) and here demonstrates the capacity of God's love. He has promised a heritage of rest to His chosen people. He has promised me nothing. He owes me nothing. But, yet, He has made a place for me anyway. Hallelujah!

[RoRK]

Shalom

Very few people today would debate the fact that Y'hoshua ben-Yosef was Jewish.

No disagreement there. The disagreement is whether Yeshua IS Jewish.

Secondly, there is really no such thing as the Jewish Faith - they are God's Ways and Teachings. The Jews didn't create Judaism - God did it. This is my contention.

I believe that we are on agreement on many other things. It's these two that I have problems with. I even cringe when I hear things such as God is a Jew; salvation only from the Jewish Faith.

At the end of the day we may only be arguing about semnatics, but I doubt so. I believe that we are in disagreement on whether God is supernatural or a human being. Think about it.

In no way am I proposing anti-semiticism. I just have a problem when people try to humanize God.

Lastly, due and humble apologies to Reuel should I have made you feel slightled.

In God's Grace
RoRK

[Mark]

RorK,

I think I can see the position you hold, and if I'm understanding you correctly, I have no contention with it: our trying to "humanize God."

I'm wondering if the passion of your argument is a sort of pendulum response, countering the biases of a theological minority who promote the Jewish ethnicity to the opposite extreme (it was from this thinking that came the doctrine that only the circumcised, the Jew or the Jewish proscelyte, could be saved.)

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Lastly, due and humble apologies to Reuel should I have made you feel slightled.

Forgiven.

We have to keep in mind that Yeshua -is- a man. He is and was Elohim made flesh. He came in the flesh and will again come in flesh. The scriptures reveal Him after his ressurection as from the tribe of Judah. This clearly identifies Him as "Yehudah" (Jew). There is no argument unless we deny the scriptures already brought to light. Perhaps the term which identifies our risen saviour in the scriptures as "Yehudah" is more spiritual than what many have been led to believe.

Shalom,

Reuel

[RoRK]

Shalom

Within Scripture, there are many ways to call/describe God. All of which are correct, obviously.

Now which ones does one choose to use?

Should we take the sharing of God's Word to be analogous to that of planting seeds then we should find a fertile land within which to plant these seeds.

Now, not all land is fertile and not all fertile land is fully fertile. We can set aside ways and means with works to make the a land fertile for seeding.

And even upon creating a fertile land, there is still works
required to ensure that the seeds grow and not wither. That the plants grow and bear fruits.

Care has to be taken in every stage of making a seed grow to the extent where the seed itself gives off seeds from within itself.

Too much of one thing and too little from another may not work out in the best interest of the farmer or the seed. For all good things are good but too much of a good thing within too little time can lead to a withered plant in no time.

A farmer with foreknowledge that not all his seeds will grow into a fruition stage, will still try, with his or her best efforts to ensure as many seeds as possible become succesful.

At question, is how does one make more land available; ensure better and improved techniques for cultivation; ensure that things used to help the seeds and plants grow are in abundance and used wisely.

In God's Grace.
RoRK

[RoRK]

Shalom

Well here we go again back to the council of Antioch 264-268 A.D. when this very doctrine of flesh/human is first disputed. And it will be comforting to you Rork to find that they voted in your favor. The trinity of God is a holy Pyramid, a great Rock that millions hold on to.

I take no benefit nor should I boast in being right; or wrong. Those are for God to decide and for me to abide.

I do also have issues with the Trinity as espoused by the early churches' teachings. I have a separate posting on my belief(s) on the Trinity. I do not see the parallels between what I am alluding to and the Trinity. By all means, please enlighten.

All that any one should ask is if God is human; having a race, creed, color, language, etc. God is not of these things. We cannot fathom Him.

God sent His Son onto Earth to show us many things, many of which many still argue till today and till tomorrow and only until He comes again to set all things Right.

My belief is that God is God. He is not human. God chose the Jewish people even before there were Jews. Does that make sense? But it is the truth.

Again, God is God. No ifs. No buts. No whys? it is, as it was then, as it is now.

There is no Scripture that says that God's preferred people are Jews. Jews are God's chosen people, not his preferred people.

God chose Abram. Abram's seed were God's chosen people. But no where in Scipture does it say that Jews were God's favorite people.

God chose Abram and his seed to fulfill God's prophesies. Prophesies are God's way to show us that He is the true God. Without a people, a time, a place and an incident; how else can even one single prophesy be evidenced?

There is no doubt that Jews are crucial to our Faith. But to call God a Jew is not to understand who God is.

In God's Grace
RoRK

[Chizuk Emunah]

I really think this comes down to our definition of the nature of Elohim.

Is Yeshua a man or G-d, or both?

I would contend that Scripture states that he is both.

Mattiyahu records that he descended through shamayim (the heavens) and took on the form of a man.
When he did that, he emptied his heavenly nefesh and exchanged it for a human one. And as we also know, he took on a human basar (body).

Now the body alone does not necessarily make someone human. In fact, there are many places in the Scriptures of angels taking on bodily form, but even so, they were still angels. We also know that for someone to be completely sinless, they have to have the ability to be tempted.

HaSatan tempted Yeshua when he was in the wilderness.

Now here's an important question: How could Yeshua be tempted if he was G-d incarnate? Is not HaShem above temptation?

The answer is more simple than we would think.
Since Yeshua took a human nefesh, but retained a heavenly ruach and n'shoma, it enabled him to be fully tempted as a man, yet use his heavenly n'shoma to overcome temptation.

So, in all reality, Yeshua was both fully human, and yet embodied the qualites of HaShem.

[Rick]

Well said, fully human, fully G-d, and yet as you said, "he emptied himself".

Phi 2:5-8 For, let this mind be in you which was also in Messiah יהושע,
who, being in the form of Elohim, did not regard equality with Elohim a matter to be grasped,
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, and came to be in the likeness of men.
And having been found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, death even of a stake.

Veyahaftah et Adonai Yeshua elohecha, vechol levavcha.
Rick

[Eli Yeshua]

Very convincing argument Notzari Y'hudi. That said, it is amazing to me that this is still a highly debatable subject with Scripture verses being fired from both sides of the fence to support two completely different theories, whereas some hold that Yeshua is neither to be considered Elohim, for one of the reasons you mentioned, the fact that he was tempted, nor, they say, did he create anything, despite existing verses to the contrary. In fact they only argue that those verses are mistranslations. Anyway, you raise very solid points herein.

And rej1s (I had to modify my post after seeing you beat me to the punch) you only strengthen Notzari Y'hudi's points, as I find the verses you quoted to be germane to this subject matter, especially in that Yeshua:

being in the form of Elohim, did not regard equality with Elohim a matter to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, and came to be in the likeness of men.

I'm interested in seeing where this discussion is going from here.

Eli Yeshua

[Chizuk Emunah]

As I have been studying, I've come to understand that many 1st Cent. Netzarim used the following as a proof text of Yeshua as Moshiach:

Tehillim 110:1&5
YHVH says to my Adon, "Sit you at my right hand, until I make your enemies my footstool." *YHVH at your right hand does crush kings in the day of his wrath.

*A copy of Tehillim found in Cairo, has YHVH here, and thus indicates the original text read YHVH. This is also indicated in the Masoretic Text.

As Kefa stated in Acts 2, surely this does not speak of Melek David who is dead and buried, but of one who would come from his line.

Also note that in verse one HaShem says to my Adon, "Sit at my right hand..." And then in verse 5, it plainly says, "HaShem at my right hand," thus stating that the person sitting at the right hand was also HaShem.

How do we resolve this apparent contradiction? By the understanding that he is one of the manifestations in which the Ein Sof chooses to reveal himself to us.

[RoRK]

Shalom

This has been a very interesting thread. But alas, to day I've only realised that the title for this thread is, "Is Messiah Jewish".

To this, the answer is an obvious and resounding YES.

But the whole premise of my initial, and subsequent statement(s) was, is God a Jew.

Can we continue our dialogue along this Q?

And does a change in the Q to what the thread asks change one's conception or answer?

In God's Grace.
RoRK

[Eli Yeshua]

RoRK wrote:

This has been a very interesting thread. But alas, to day I've only realised that the title for this thread is, "Is Messiah Jewish".

To this, the answer is an obvious and resounding YES.

I think this seems to settle it then. As to your question, whether or not Elohim the Father is Jewish, I think we all hold the same views regarding that, He is Spirit. No argument. He is not considered anything as human as all that, such as an ethnicity, etc. The question lay with Yeshua, which you've stated your views on. If this line of questioning were to continue I think, it would have to be with regard to Yeshua. "Is Yeshua considered Elohim?" and is he still sort of half human? If "yes" to both, or yes to the latter question then Yeshua, being Elohim yet partly human, makes Elohim what? And his followers, when they are perfected, who are called "elohim," are they not chosen from ethnic lines and tribes? What does the Elohim truly become in future? A family of heavenly beings/former humans, or half-humans?

Eli Yeshua

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

To this, the answer is an obvious and resounding YES.

Yes, we can start a new thread on whether G'd is Jewish. Of course He is Spirit. I would say that true Judaism is a manifestation of G'd and reveals His character. But, it is only one aspect of whom He is.

Shalom b'Yeshua,

Reuel

[Rut]

Perhaps the term which identifies our risen saviour in the scriptures as "Yehudah" is more spiritual than what many have been led to believe.

Shalom,

Reuel
[/quote]

Shalom Achim,
Kalev wasn't Jewish and he was!

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom Rut,

Kalev wasn't Jewish and he was!

I am not sure what you mean. Could you expound?

Yom tov b'Yeshua,

Reuel