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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Mar 6, 2005 10:10:52 GMT -8
Yochanan (John) 3:1-12 provides the context of this statement. In it, Yeshua states that one must be "born again" to enter into the Messianic Kingdom.
This is an often misunderstood passage, and it has been taken out of context many times. That being said, I would like to hear what you all think and understand this passage to mean.
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Post by Blake on Mar 7, 2005 13:16:08 GMT -8
Yochanan (John) 3:1-12 provides the context of this statement. In it, Yeshua states that one must be "born again" to enter into the Messianic Kingdom. This is an often misunderstood passage, and it has been taken out of context many times. That being said, I would like to hear what you all think and understand this passage to mean. Isn't it obvious that Moschiach was referring to excepting his sacrifice and turning from sin? |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Mar 7, 2005 15:56:08 GMT -8
Yeshua criticizes the teachers of Israel for not understanding what it meant to be “born again”. Therefore, if Yeshua expected that the teachers of Israel should know what this meant, how could it refer to accepting Yeshua’s sacrifice seeing that He was not yet sacrificed? Of course Yeshua’s sacrifice is part of the message of the Good News and this was prophesied by the prophets of old. And, we also know that the Gospel was preached before hand. I believe that the phrase “born again” refers to Ezekiel 36:26-27 and several other passages in the TeNaKh which includes being indwelt by the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) and the evidence of this rebirth is that our heart would be converted to keep the commandments of our G’d...
”A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.”
The concept of being born again was indeed articulated by the holy prophets of old. This is why Yeshua could criticize the teachers of Israel for not understanding what being “born again” meant…<br>
” Yeshua answered him, "Are you the teacher of Yisra'el, and don't understand these things??
- John 3:10
Shalom b’Yeshua,
Reuel
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Post by cwvwarrior on Mar 12, 2005 9:31:23 GMT -8
Dr. D. James Kennedy, at www.coralridge.org, just did a sermon, "Ye Must Be Born Again", on March 6th. The 18th century pastor, George Whitefield, based a great deal of his ministry on this one phrase. (300 sermons) The simplest explanation I have heard is the spiritual birth. Kennedy said in this sermon, we can be as sure of our spiritual birth as we are sure we were born physically. Until we are born a second time, we are dead, spiritually, to God. The Ezekiel verse that Reuel wrote is a good one! "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.”<br> |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Mar 12, 2005 11:25:06 GMT -8
EDIT: reposted on the last page.
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Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Mar 15, 2005 14:22:49 GMT -8
I believee being "born again", for a  observor, is carefully inspected every Yom Kippur. Something we check as our sins over the past year are inspected. I believe it is not something you just do, but something your lifestyle and mindset change about yourself. |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Apr 5, 2005 10:31:26 GMT -8
Well, since I opened the door, I figured it was time to get back to this... One might think that, but that is not the case. As Reuel pointed out Yeshua reprimanded Nakdimon for not knowing what it meant. He couldn't have been referring to his death, as he was still alive at the time. Here is the argument I present: To understand the context of what is being discussed, we need to understand that in order for rebirth to occur something must be born, die, and then re-born. Birth:- Here we have the birth of Yisrael Death:- And here we have the death or rebellion of Yisrael Rebirth:Yeshua states that for a person to be born again and enter the Messianic Kingdom, they must be born both of water, and of the Spirit. Using the 2nd rule of Hillel (Rule of first usage), we can look back and see what Yeshua was talking about. In conclusion, we can see that Yeshua was validated in scolding Nakdimon for not knowing about being born again. The issue had already been addressed by the prophet Yechezkel. And the true meaning of being "born again", involves being cleansed by HaShem and having his Spirit put within us, so that we will joyfully observe his . |
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Post by Digitaria on Apr 5, 2005 17:42:22 GMT -8
Dear Notzari Y'hudi,
Thankyou for starting this thread as it is paramount importance to our entry into the kingdom of heaven.
Everyone who posted on this string had valid information to share, all points being valid and connected.
I would like to ellaborate upon what has been said already with yet another interpretation. Interpretations which one should not get bogged down with, but rather try and understand the thing said in the simplest way, sometimes simply casting our net out on the opposite side can help us win more souls by changing out tactic and our teaching methods, yielding more understanding fishes in the net.
Sometimes those who study scripture for spiritual enlightenment never attain that which they seek in this life, some things are meant to be understood by the soul and I will try and explain what I mean.
Of course factual knowledge passed down orally through traditon is a start to further personal study. Information which involves study and personal intuition and understanding being a mitzvot.
My understanding of being born from spirit is a little more personal and in this way I will speak to you of my experience of my own new birth which should be of more importance to us persoanlly than studying to deeply the life of others, neglecting ourselves to seek first the kingdom of G-d.
Being spiritually reborn means being reborn into the holy and spiritual family of G-d. Through faith we become redeemed children of the true G-d, with faith we can truly see the kingdom of heaven which in its vastness includes many things.
Through faith we are re-purchased by our nearest family member through our anointed king through the blood shed on the torture stake, the blood of Jesus himself. Through this faith we make him our kinsman redeemer and our nearest relative, whose ransom of his blood buys us back from death itself where we were sent after the first transgression when the first couple as spiritual son and daughter of G-d first disobeyed.
After our transgression only blood would atone for blood, only spiritual obedience would cover spiritual disobedience.
Through doctrinal teaching spiritual Israel were cleansed of their un-cleaness through clean water which may or may not be the water spoken of in
Yechezkel 36:24-27. This clean water could have been the clean water obtained from the sacrifice of a red heiffer, water to cleanse the person of un-cleaness
of the flesh when in contact with a deceased body or of the un-cleaness of mingling with the nations or the un-cleaness of any discharge of flesh, or it could be the clean water obtained from any water source which has both an inlet and outlet, like rivers or streams, when John the Baptiser was baptising he was preaching the repentance of sins in light of the coming day of wrath which comes upon the whole earth, also the proclamation of salvation to those that are baptised for the repentance of their sins. Sins against man and against G-d, through faith in the cleansing water and the power of the holy spirit people changed their ways, so that they would be written down for life and salvation Rosh Hashahah and not incurr the wrath for those already judged for there lack of faith; relying only on the blood of a calf and of goats to cleanse their sins on atonement day, ten days later.
Those born to a hebrew woman would be instructed in doctrinal law, it would not be in there heart however unless they had faith to live above the law of men and live in the law of G-d, having searched their heart and the scriptures. When the law is in your heart you are subject to redemption living according to the two great commandments that we love G-d above all others and love each other as we wish to be loved, this Lord Jesus taught to all those listening.
In a similar way the prophets of old spoke of circumcision of flesh and circumcision of the heart.
'Blake said faith in the redeeming blood of Jesus is what causes one to be born again, although it was stated that as Jesus was not yet sacrificed this could not be the case'. I dont quite agree because Lord Jesus knew he would be offered up as a sacrifice for the sins of the people and indeed for himself even before it physically took place. He was able to demonstrate forgiveness of sins by encouraging people to trust, love and be faithful that things could take place for them because the G-d in heaven loves them and that healing takes place with love. The healed giving thanks with praises and offerings appropriate to thanksgiving, giving due glory to G-d.
When Moses raised up the brazen serpent in the desert he spoke to the people and said any person being bitten and having faith would be un-harmed although bitten by a poisonous serpent.
They were not all bitten at the same time, it was something which could happen, but the faith and the belief in the cure caused them to have faith, their very
survival depending on this faith should the worse occur.
Having faith in the death of our lord gives us life but only if we have faith that although we die we have life towards G-d spiritually when accepting him as our ransom sacrifice for the spiritual forgiveness of sins.
In the same way those under law and not subject to faith although they live and breathe they are spiritually estranged and separated towards G-d and effecively dead.
The 614th Mitzvot I think life in the sense as you mentioned here pertaining to Atonement Day implies being written down for life in Jerusalem and does not mean they are having faith in repentance of sins but means they have faith only in the sacrifices of a lesser sacrifice of animal blood for the covering of sin. Some degree of faith is still required but if you believe in the sacrifice and value the life of it, then you dont turn around and make the same sins you did before which required forgiveness in the first place.
This here is my account of being born again, born again like many of the testimonies a reformed character will tell you. This new birth and transformation occured because something outside of myself came into my life. The Lord indeed let himself be found by one that was not looking and in being found I am in-seperable.
G-d takes a fruitless vine and he cleans it so that it might produce fruit, he tells you to live unto him and forget the past and the things you have known which are of man and of doctine and of the devil.
He tells you to clean house and sweep away the cobwebs, he plays loud music and tells you to wake up, he will speak to your soul and you in turn must speak to another.
I will give you reason now for the faith in me and ask you to seek becoming part of the holy and royal family which involves becoming a spiritual family member with G-d, through being near relative to Lord Jesus that he can buy back your soul with his blood.
My re-birth happened after the early death of my mum who died at a relativly young age of forty five. I would have said un-timely death but maybe it was not.
I dont actually want to say that the death of my mum caused the events which were to occur, which caused me to feel.
After my mum died I was crying in my room crying out desperately; "Who would love me now"? Although I had one remaining parent, a sister, my daughter and current partner their love just was not enough and was seemingly superficial. Lack of love growing up caused me to die somewhat inside. I only knew I was dead when I began to live and this is what happened.
I was crying away and I head a voice like thunder deep and authorative, clear and commanding. This is what I heard; "Hear what I say, I am your Father and I love you, you are my daughter and I love you, I love all my children equally, I love you.
I cannot tell you the significance of hearing such words on my soul, I was changed in an instant. I was loved and it is with this love that I tell you all that I to love you. I asked for a supply of this love, call it what you will holy spirit, divine intervention, I asked for this love that I might give it to others, an un-failing supply of perfect love.
This was my spiritual rebirth, it never came from deliberate prayer, it came from the my heart direct from my soul, it came from the sick condition of my heart.
These are the prayers that I think G-d hears and answers he wants us to need him and love him with our whole heart, not because we are told to do so, or because we should show fear but because he is our source of life without which we shall die or remain dead.
Everything about who I thought I was changed from that moment subsequently even my name, but thats another story. I hope I did not bore you to much?
My purpose for writing was not to disagree or agree with the things written on this string only to say that you all seem pretty knowledgable and very eloquent teachers who freely have shared your heart with other seekers of the truth.
Thankyou for trying to help people understand spiritual re-birth and telling others of its importance.
Much Love
Lisa
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Apr 5, 2005 23:52:58 GMT -8
Shalom Lisa,
Thank you for sharing your testimony. I have a few comments and questions.
Yes, and on these two commandments all of the other commandments hang (Mat.22:40) and are to be observed as one is sanctified.
What about those whom are not subject to the Law of G’d therefore demonstrating their lack of faith (Rom.8:7)?
Doesn’t one draw close to G’d for Him to draw close to them?…<br>
”Draw near to G’d, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, sinners! And purify your hearts, double minded ones!”
- Yaakov (James) 4:8
Whom are you referring to?
Shalom v'ahava b'Yeshua HaMashiach
(Peace and love in Yeshua The Messiah),
Reuel
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Apr 6, 2005 6:21:40 GMT -8
That's a good question. Who are you referring to?
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Post by Digitaria on Apr 6, 2005 7:23:15 GMT -8
Dear Reuel,
Thankyou for your reply, from what I have read on this website it does appear that you indeed go out of your way to make new members feel welcome.
I will try and pick through your observations and see if I might ellaborate or make things more clear for you and all concerned. I do know I tend to ramble sometimes.
I think those who are not subject to the laws of G-d firstly need to be defined and compared with those
who have laid hold of covenants of the Hebrew people.
Those not subject to the laws of G-d are those not aware of his covenants, not necessarily those lacking in faith.
Those People aware of the laws of G-d and whom choose to opt out are seemingly more righteous than those that opt in but flagrently breach the covenant with which they have agreed upon.
I do not think those not subject to the law of G-d are displaying a lack of faith, simply because they never signed up or bought into the promises which came with a particular agreement or covenant.
As you are aware there have been many covenants since the creation of spiritual man and woman, like today
some covenants are verbal and passed down from Father to Son, these covenants depend largely on education and being true to the word of your mouth.
Other covenants are attested to by witnesses with two copies of any agreement being kept for a later date, as in the case when a hebrew person would sell his property for a price for re-purchasing at a later date, ususally before the close of the sixth year which is the final year for re-purchase, if the documentation and the appropriate price of re-purchase had not been furnished then according to the covenant the property would go away forever with no chance of re-puchase and would become the property of the new owner.
If the owner was un-able to afford the price of re-purchase he could ask a son or near relative to re-purchase at the price stipulated, in our case the G-d of Heaven and Earth afforded the blood of his son to buy back our souls from death, this price of re-purcahse was without money, and it was without money that we were sold, precious life blood was the ransom for our souls, all those having fellowship with our nearest relative Christ Jesus himself. This nearness makes us heirs with him as sons and daughters.
Other covenants are based on the shedding of blood of a sacrificial victim, anything which is visible and termed; 'Written in blood', implies that the covenanter is taking seriously the two way agreement which he is making.
Any one outside the covenant of the blood of circumcision is subject to the Noachide code, the abstaining from blood in our food, the eating of animals which are chewers of the cud and cloven in their feet, also include other basic human right and guidance how we should treat other human beings, however if you are not taught these things and have not been orally instructed then you are living in accordance to
human nature which can be both loving and cruel.
People through loving nurture and kindly enviroments and an organised social system will live according to the rule; "Do unto others", but a broken depraved social system rife with poverty and cruelty will culture perverse things and the eating of anything including cannabilism, promoting only self preservation.
They may not even know of G-d but I know they realise their life is pitiable and poor.
Those subject to teaching and writing are privelidged that even when great hardship comes to them, even then they are governed by a higher law not originating with themselves as individuals but set out on tablets of stone, taught from generation to generation as judgement upon judgement.
These covenanters are known as the teachers of mankind the Hebrew nation but even they lose the way and make mistakes. Having faith means sticking to the things which were agreed upon, however when we make a mistake we have a merciful G-d who understands and allows us to get back on track through acknowledgement of our mistakes followed with atonement and apology.
When I said the Lord let himself be found by one that was not looking I mean that he is fed up of speaking to a stiff necked people, a people that pay no attention to his wonders or his signs which he places in the earth. His prophets and judges he would raise up but these were persecuted and told only to prophesy what the rich wanted to here, to speak of the insolence and hard heartedness of the people had you clapped in irons.
The Lord communicates to us saying a people that had not known him would come and a people that were not looking for him he would allow himself to be found by.
Moreover those not understanding writing and the things sealed up would understand and the blind and deaf would see and hear.
Is is really you that has found G-d or is it him that first finds you, first finds you and loosed you from your sins with his love? I mean when you walking in the street in the path you have always walked do you say to the 50 kt diamond it is I who have found you, or do you say it is you that has found me and made me rich. Of course a diamond like money, like false G-ds is in-animate un-like G-d who speaks for himself, he speaks to your heart so that there is no mistake. He says to the one with no direction, know your way, he says this is my path walk in it, he says "Here my voice, this is I whom speaks, he says I have called you by your name you are mine". He definitely finds us although we might always be looking for that diamond in the rough, it is not by chance we are found.
Nice Speaking to You
Love
Lisa
In your quote it is the Jewish people that were being encouraged to draw close to G-d those with a knowledge of him, those knowing
that G-d himself had thrown them away from him and that there would not be a returning until the sin of the people had been atoned for.
On an individual level we can draw close to G-d but on a national level the people remained estranged, only individuals through
faith could stand in the judgement.
Sometimes there is no drawing closer to G-d until he has burned us in the fire of affliction, due to the previous badness of our dealings, he reproves us
and speaks his word which consumes us with the fire of his word, he is the refiners fire which seperates all the errornous beliefs
which make us as scummy dross, a collection of mis-education and a knowledgable persons in doing bad and in knowing everything about the religions of the nations and
nothing of the true G-d who salvation comes to all those honestly seeking his face.
Dearest Reuel I was referring to you and to all those who have faith in their salvation through
the provison of the G-d of Israel. I consider myself part of a holy and royal family which I was born into, I also consider myself
as a member of the nation of Israel. I want all seeking souls to become part of this family not through self education but through
spiritual corrobaration of the fact that they are indeed heirs which King Yeshuain. I simply want to
everyone to be part of the same family and I dont know if you would agree but for others to become
sons and daughters they must first have parents and spiritual parents like we have with Lord Jesus
who is the second Adam and to whom we must become children of?
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Post by Digitaria on Apr 6, 2005 9:35:18 GMT -8
Dear Notzari Y'hudi,
I was not aware that I posted a question, however I did say hyperthetically that I want you; "The reader"
whomever may read what was written to become heirs with Christ Jesus by becoming near relatives and by accepting his payment for your soul with his blood which was ransomed and given up for many that many might live through faith in him.
Much Love
Lisa
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Apr 6, 2005 13:00:18 GMT -8
Shalom Digitaria, I didn't take offense at what you said, but I was curious as to who you were addressing in that statment. Thank you for clarifying that for me.  Shalom Aleichem b'shem Yeshua, Notzari Y'hudi |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Apr 6, 2005 21:36:17 GMT -8
Thank you for your clarification Digitaria. I am truly interested in discussing the things of which you speak. I believe we can both learn from this discussion and I am happy you are here. I also consider myself a part of the Holy family that makes up the Kingdom of Heaven in which Yeshua HaMashiach is King. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Elohim (Romans 10:17). And, truly many perish because of a lack of "self education" (Hos.4:6). "For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and shalom;
because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards G-d; for it is not subject to G-d's law, neither indeed can it be."- Romans 8:6-7 If a mind is hostile towards G'd it is because such a mind is not subject to His . Such a person does not have faith becaues he or she refuses to hear the words of The Almighty. Because the covenants of G'd are a compound unit, those whom wish to be the children of G'd are subject to each new addition and these additions do not degrade each other, rather they add better promises. There are current threads on the subject of the place of in a believer's life. If you wish to continue that particular discussion, please feel free to join one of the current threads dealing with it. When one has become "born again" and is filled with the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit), G'd will cause such a one to walk in His as he or she is sanctified.... "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my ordinances, and do them."- Yechezk'el (Ezekiel) 36:25-27 This is why education of the Word of G'd is so important. If what one believes spiritually contradicts what is written in the scriptures, what one believes spiritually cannot be true. Yeshua questions Nakdiom (Nicodemus) that he was a Rabbi in Yisrael yet he did not understand what it meant to be born again.... "Nakdimon answered him, "How can these things be?" Yeshua answered him, "Are you the teacher of Yisra'el, and don't understand these things?" - Yochanan (John) 3:9-10 Yeshua said this because one can come to an understanding of what it means to be "born-anew" by a study of the word of G'd. It is the very word of G'd that gives life and as we seek to understand more fully what it means to be "born-anew" we should diligently study the scriptures to show ourselves approved (2Ti.2:15). Blessings be upon you in the name of Yeshua our Messiah, Reuel |
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observor, is carefully inspected every Yom Kippur. Something we check as our sins over the past year are inspected. I believe it is not something you just do, but something your lifestyle and mindset change about yourself.
