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Post by yeshua's homeboy on Apr 1, 2005 10:39:36 GMT -8
Revelations 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. KJV
The other day I was reading this passage and have been dwelling on it since. Most evangelicals will admit that Yeshua was with the father from the beginning, but I have never heard it preached that Yeshua’s death on the cross-had effect from the foundation of the earth. This verse seems to be stating just that. A sacrifice always has a purpose and if this lamb (Yeshua) was slain from the foundation, one can only conclude that the result of the sacrifice had an affect from the very beginning. Most of the church believes that Yeshua’s death on the cross-had an affect from his death on, but could this verse in revelations be stating that even before the initial physical death of Yeshua that the purpose of his sacrifice had been manifest from the foundation of the earth.
As I have been thinking about the presence of the Messiah and his place with the father from the beginning. I started asking other questions. One of these questions stems from John 14:6
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. KJB
From this statement we may assume that Yeshua is saying that from this point on no man comes to the father but through him, but if this was to be our understanding why didn’t Yeshua say from this point on? He simply states that no man comes to the father but through him. Maybe his point in stating this is to say that this is the way it has always been from the beginning, which would tie into the theme of the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. Often I think that man places our limited concepts of time into verses like these, which can lead to false understanding of what is really being said.
2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
If you’re interested in adding your comments on this subject I would love to hear what others have to say.
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Post by Mark on Apr 4, 2005 3:14:58 GMT -8
There's a huge misconception in the Church (not totally, but very common) that people before the Messiah were saved by keeping the Law- particularly by doing the sacrifices. Hebrews 4:2 blows that completely out of the water.
Heb 4:2 The Scriptures '98 (2) For indeed the Good News was brought to us as well as to them, but the word which they heard did not profit them, not having been mixed with belief in those who heard it.
Hebrews 11 doesn't leave much room for question either, nor Romans 4. Yeshua was not "Plan B". From the beginning it was the agenda of Adonai to demonstrate His great love for us.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Apr 4, 2005 22:06:10 GMT -8
I agree, the sacrifice of Yeshua never competed with the sacrifices offered in the Earthly Tabernacle and Temples as stated in Heb 10:4...
"for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."
Shalom chaver,
Reuel
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Apr 5, 2005 8:33:04 GMT -8
Agreed. The Rabbis agree that for everything that occurs on earth, there is a reaction in the heavens, and vice versa. In this same manner, we can see that the sacrifices themselves did not provide atonement, but served as a symbolic representation of what was to occur.
And likewise, since the talmidim did not stop going to the Temple after Yeshua's death, we can reasonably argue that sacrifices should be continued as a memorial of Messiah's death.
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Post by shoshana on Apr 9, 2005 14:32:57 GMT -8
I believe that since for Yeshua and Yah there is no time factor as we know it for man that Yeshua's death on the cursed tree is as if it happend right after Adam and Eve's fall. So the redemption of man had an inmmediate effect. By the tree that gave judgement man fell and faced death but man was then redeemed by the tree of life eternal in Yeshua. The redemption that took place 2000 years ago in our time line is as if it happened 5765 years ago. In his love and mercy Yeshua redeemed man right after the fall thus making hasatan's claim inconsequential in Yah's kingdom. In other words Yeshua undid the devil's work right after it happened.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Apr 10, 2005 23:15:41 GMT -8
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