Hagar:My Beloved!

[habag]

Shalom!

I would like to share a wonderful thing the Lord has given to me. It concerns both a numerical and theological link between the allegory of Hagar, the remnant in Israel, and the 86th psalm.

The Lord has always said, 'only the remnant will be saved.' So when the Apostle Paul says 'all Israel will be saved', he does not speak of every Jew, but of every believing Jew. That is, all Israel is not Israel, but only those of faith are counted as seed.

The Church began Jewish. But after gentiles began to fill the Body, Jews faded away. Was this 'all Israel'?

Paul says in the 4 chapter of Galatians that Hagar was an allegory for those in Israel who, clinging to Moshe and refusing JeShua, were cast out of the Lord's house. Now, the Lord has shown to me the other side of Hagar's allegory.

There were 'two houses' in Jacob, Israel in the north, and Judah in the south. This, I understand, is to picture the fact that the remnant, though one, is saved in two stages, in two time periods.

Hosea, 'For I will no longer have compassion on the house of Israel..but I will show compassion for the house of Judah..'

We know Israel descended into depravity until the Lord removed them from being a nation, scattering them among the nations. Judah, though they too rebelled and were sent into Babylon for 70 years, were sent there as a remnant. But they returned.

'I will show mercy to her who knew no mercy...and in the place where it is said, 'Not My people', they will be called the sons of the living God...'

There is then the promise that Israel, the north, will be redeemed. But how and when?

Hagar was cast out of Abraham's house (not My people). But the lord found her in the wilderness and showed her compassion. He promised to bless her son Ishmael, 'God will hear.' And as a sign, the Lord opened her eyes to see the well of water.

Ishmael was born on Abraham's 86th year. When I saw this, the Lord led me to read the 86th psalm.

This psalm is mostly about one crying out fro help; not strange as psalms go. But the key verse, among others, is verse 16, 'Turn to me, and be gracious to me; Oh grant Your strength to Your servant, and save the son of Your handmaid. Show me a sign fro good...'

Is this not Ishmael and Hagar? I think so! Those in Israel today who are turning to the Lord, are those who were rejected in Paul's day, cast out for unbelief,, and hardened. But today, even as the Lord gave mercy to Hagar, the Lord has 'heard' their cry as He draws them by His grace. He is opening the eye to see, even as the Samaritian woman, the well of living water. As as they turn to the lord, the veil of the Law is removed.

So He says also in Hosea, 'I will join the sons of Israel with the sons of Judah...' AS this is being done today, the Lord is saving the 'rest of', 'all Israel' that His remnant may be complete.

Verse 13 of psa86, 'For Your lovingkindness toward me is great, and You have delievered my soul from Sheol.' Hosea13:14, 'Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol? SHall I redeem them from death? O death where...'

Does not Paul says in Romans11 '...for if the rejection of them be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?'? So thes sons of Hagar who were formerly cast out, are now being shown mercy. And, as the promise in Deut29, they are being given a heart to know HIm.

BUt, unfortunatly, all Israel will not believe this good news. Many will reject Him yet, because all Israel is not Israel. There is no national conversion! And many will accept the one who 'comes in his own name.'

In the Name,

habag

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Habag,

Welcome to Ahavat Elohim Messianic Discussion Forums!

The allegory of Hagar in regards to is one that can be applied to any individual and not Jews only. The allegory of Hagar is one that shows that the way of G'd is not to accomplish His promises and righteousness by our own way…as was the case with Abraham trying to bring about G-d's promises through Hagar in regards to Ishmael. I believe you are right in saying that not every last Jew in the nation of Israel will be saved. But, the nation of Israel shall be saved at the coming of Yeshua as He will fight all their enemies. Personal salvation is but a part of salvation as understood in the Hebraic mindset. National salvation has always been a large part of it and it will indeed be included as an important aspect at the return of Yeshua The Messiah. At this time there will be one and one people as all nations flow to Israel (Isai.2). All whom join the covenant of YHVH will be a part of spiritual Israel becoming one new man in Yeshua The Messiah.

Shalom,

Reuel

[habag]

Shalom Reuel!

Thank you for the welcome. I do hope I can maintain my welcome.

Your point is true. Our works will not accomplish life, only death. And this is exactly what Paul's veiw of Hagar meant, the works of death under the Law. We can never, by our righteouness, by the works of the Law, fulfill the righteouness of God. And those in Israel, who refused Messiah, trusting rather, in their own righteouness, were cast out of His House.

The Covenant of the Law was a covenant of works. And in that it was, it held the curse, 'cursed is he who does not continue in the works of the Law, to do them.' But this covenant came that it might announce the New Covenant, that of God's grace in Messiah. So the Law came that 'sin might increase' to highlight the fact that, in Messiah 'grace abounded all the more.'

And this is the point of my post, that the grace of God is being shown to those who were previouly hardened. He is showing compassion to her who knew no compassion. He is removing the veil of the Law from their hearts and minds that they might see the grace in Messiah, the love of God.

And, He has been doing it, in great part, by His 'Cyrus Church.' Cyrus is not only a type of the Messiah, but of the Church! And this is what my website, Link removed by Admin.[/b] is all about.

For whereas the Church began in Judah, and in Messiah their message became 'a light to the nations', Judah stumbled, and faded from the body. BUt today, the Lord has made His Church 'light to My people Israel.'
Cyrus, in Persian, means sun! And we, in Messiah's stead, 'arise with healing in uor wings for Israel's wound.'

The Lord made His disciple 'fishers of men' (Jer16) to gather the remnant in Judah. But today He makes us 'hunters of men' (Jer16) to gather the remnant in Israel.

Unforunatly, there are many who come entered in, false brethren, who turn the grace of God into the obligation of the Law. For the New Covenant is not the Old Covenant renewed, not written upon the heart; otherwise gentile believers must in every way keep the 613. Those workers have 'rebuild' the dividing wall which was torn down in Messiah.

The is One Lord, one faith, one baptism. And we are one people in the Lord, in one Body, walking by one law, the Law of Christ.

The , 'intruction', taught us to look for 'that prophet'. And all who refuse Him are utterly cutoff from the people. It taught He would come a deliver us from the curse of the Law. It taught He would 'renew' and fulfill the covenant the Lord made with Abraham. And this covenant was to include All nations upon the face of the earth.

Praise Yah!

habag

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

The Covenant of the Law was a covenant of works.

Not quite. Salvation has –never- been by works. The covenant of Moshe was appended to the covenant of Avraham, just as the covenant of Mashiach was appended to all the previous covenants resulting in a better covenant with better promises. in the life of believers is and was the valid expression of true Biblical faith and now with better promises! The problem was that it had been perverted into salvation by works system. This was never the true Biblical faith of the Fathers. This is what Rav Sha’ul (Paul) was trying to describe. There is no question that of YHVH continues to be the valid expression for believers today in Yeshua The Messiah. Does your website dispute this? If it does it may be in violation of the forum policy regarding the posting of links.

Shalom aleychem,

Reuel

[habag]

Reuel!

I nver said the Covenant of Law could save anyone, by its works or otherwise. But does he not say, 'The man who does them shall live by them'? There was a righteousness according to the Law, but it did not justify before God.

MOses was not given as any 'appendum' to Abraham. Paul makes its clear the Law did not add to nor take away from this covenant previouly radified. It was,only an overseer given authority until the coming of faith, of Messiah, who would then, fulfill the Law, by His life, then in His death. But in His death, the 'covenant' of the Law was nailed to the cross. That is, Moses was crucified with Christ, but only Christ arose from death. And in this resurrection, He established His New Covenant.

My point, is that the New Covenant is not any 'renewal' of the Old Covenant, nor is it the Law of Moshe (613) written upon the heart. What is written, is Christ, by faith. We are called to walk in the 'obedience of faith', both Jew and Gentile.

If the New is the Old renewed, then ALL the Law has authority. The Lord said nothing would pass from the Law until ALL is fulfilled. So either All the Law still has authority, or None of it does.

The Law is a whole; to offend in one point was to offend in all. Likewise, Moshe said, 'do not add to nor take away from this law.' Or as Paul says, 'If you allow yourself to be circucised, then you are obligated to keep the whole Law.'

So either Messiah fulfilled completly, every jot and tittle, the Covenant of the Law, or He did not, and therfore it still has authority. But then you have a logical and theological problem.

Did He not fulfill the symbolism of the sacrifices, by His sacrifice? Did He not 'remove' Levy, and establish Melchizedic? Was there not a 'change in the Law'? And if so, is this not adding to or taking away from the Law?

Further,if the New is the Old renewed, and gentiles have been brought into this one covenant, must not gentiles then keep ALL the Law, and not just the 4 recommended by the Jerusalem Council? I mean, is there one halacha for Jews and another for gentiles? Are we not all citizens of one commonwealth? Has not the dividing wall come down? Do we not stand before God, who is no respecter of persons, as one people?

I do not speak against the Law of Moses. It still serves the puprose of teaching. But it is not a covenant we are bound by, Jew or Gentile. So when I say the Covenant of the Law was done away in Messiah, I speak of that 'covenant', and not the holiness, or justice, or goodness of God.

We, in the New Covenant, are called to walk by the halacha of the Spirit of the living God, and not in the old way of the 'letter'. We are the ministers of a New Covenant, built upon better promises. Built, not, upon the foundation of the Law, but upon better promises. Which promise is the same, the original as given to Abraham; while, I might add, while he was in uncircumcision, and not while in circumcision.

The Law was 'intruction', teaching us to fear God. But it also taught us to look for the one who would redeem us from the Law. This covenant, was the 'ministration of death'; for the power of sin is the Law.

And so this bring us back to my original post. The promised remnant in Israel are being given a heart to know HIm, by the rmoving of the veil of the Law.

I tell you though, those who teach that the New is the Old renewed are only aiding the rise to power of AntiChrist, for he will come in the mantle of Moses. And in this, he will deceive the many.

How can there be a 'man of lawlessnes' without a measure to judge him by? He comes peaching Moses, but inwardly he is full of dead men's bones! He comes an angel of light, but only to deceive and destroy.

But, anyway! This is somewhat far afield of my original post. I wish only to point out that the teaching of the remnant is confirmed by the allegory of Hagar, and the 86thPsalm.

habag

[habag]

lovelygirl,

Does Moshe teach you this way to 'love'? You prove yourself lawless!

habag

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Does Moshe teach you this way to 'love'? You prove yourself lawless!

The people that posted the objectionable contact where obviously not observant. They were indeed Neo-Nazis and ant-semites.

It sounds like from your post that you have confused the writings of Rav Shaul (Paul). Therefore, if you are open to discussing Paul’s writings in the original context in which they are written, please begin to address one passage by him at a time in the place designated and we will discuss them one at a time. Otherwise this forum is not the place to post writings that are aimed at drawing people away from a based faith in Yeshua The Messiah. Thank you for your consideration.

Shalom in Yeshua The Messiah,

Reuel

[Mark]

It's an interesting dilema that "habag" presents: were the sacrifices done away with by Yeshua and rendered illigitimate at the rending of the veil? There are two perspectives that explain this, still being observant and still keeping Scriptural integrity.

The first is that Temple sacrifices would still be righteous and appropriate if there still stood a Temple. Paul had no problem beng at charges with those who had sacrifices to make in Acts 21. Equally, to suggest that sacrifices were necessary for salvation before Yeshua's sacrifice is to condemn many of the prophets to Hell (Ezekiel and Daniel didn't perform sacrifices, they died in Babylon.) Sacrifices are a form of worship, appropriate in the place which God shall choose, and not otherwise appropriate at all.

The other perspective is gleaned from Hebrews 2 through 5. Yeshua stands as our High Priest and is the true sacrifice which all other forms were meant to represent. The sacrificial system has, then, not been done away with, only relocated; which is nothing surprising or new. It moved from the wilderness to Shiloh, from Shiloh to Jerusalem, and is now before the heavenly throne of God.

[Chizuk Emunah]

habag said:

My point, is that the New Covenant is not any 'renewal' of the Old Covenant, nor is it the Law of Moshe (613) written upon the heart. What is written, is Christ, by faith. We are called to walk in the 'obedience of faith', both Jew and Gentile.

If the New is the Old renewed, then ALL the Law has authority. The Lord said nothing would pass from the Law until ALL is fulfilled. So either All the Law still has authority, or None of it does.

The Law is a whole; to offend in one point was to offend in all. Likewise, Moshe said, 'do not add to nor take away from this law.' Or as Paul says, 'If you allow yourself to be circucised, then you are obligated to keep the whole Law.'

So either Messiah fulfilled completly, every jot and tittle, the Covenant of the Law, or He did not, and therfore it still has authority. But then you have a logical and theological problem.

Did He not fulfill the symbolism of the sacrifices, by His sacrifice? Did He not 'remove' Levy, and establish Melchizedic? Was there not a 'change in the Law'? And if so, is this not adding to or taking away from the Law?

Further,if the New is the Old renewed, and gentiles have been brought into this one covenant, must not gentiles then keep ALL the Law, and not just the 4 recommended by the Jerusalem Council? I mean, is there one halacha for Jews and another for gentiles?

There are several different issues to address here. I will take them on one at a time.

1. The New Covenant:
- Let's see what the Scriptures have to say:
- Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) 31:31-34
"Behold the days come, says HaShem, that I will make a new covenant with Beit Yisrael, and Beit Y'hudah; not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as I was neglected by them, says HaShem. But this is the covenant that I will make with Beit Yisrael after those days, says HaShem, I will put my in their inmost being, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their Elohim, and they shall be My people; and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying:'Know HaShem'; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says HaShem; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more."

Okay, so from the standpoint of the TaNaK, there is nothing that says the "Old Covenant," aka... Mosaic Covenant was going to be replaced.

- Let's see what Yeshua has to say:
- Mattiyahu (Matthew) 5:17-19
"Think not that I have come to abolish the or the Prophets, I have come not to abolish, but to fulfill. Truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one yud or one stroke will pass away from the , until they all be fulfilled. And whoever shall abolish one of these least commandments, and shall teach the sons of men so, the same will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven. And whoever shall keep one of these least commandments, and shall teach the sons of men so, the same will be called greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven."

Okay, so Yeshua said that not until heaven and earth pass away and everything is fulfilled, the would still be in effect. So, since we still see the same heaven and the same earth that Yeshua saw, and they have not passed away, the remains valid. Until Messiah returns, defeats HaSatan (twice), and ushers in the Messianic Kingdom, all has not been accomplished.
In plain and simple terms, the (as we know it) will remain in effect until Messiah completes the work he started 2,000 yrs ago.

2. Validity of :
- I addressed this to some extent in my first point. I do want to add that absolutely 100% of is still applicable (under certain circumstances). Let me explain: You already know that there are 613 mitzvot (commandments). Those 613 can be broken down into different categories.

Let me illustrate that point:
- HaShem (1-10)
- itself (11-16)
- Signs of faith (17-21)
- Tefillah & Brachot (22-25)
- Love & Brotherhood (26-39)
- Poor & Unfortunate (40-52)
- Treatment of Goyim (53-58)
- Marriage, Divorce & Family (59-81)
- Forbidden Sexual Relations (82-106)
- Times & Seasons (107-142)
- Dietary Laws (143-169)
- Business Practices (170-183)
- Employees, Servants & Slaves (184-202)
- Vows & Oaths (203-209)
- Sabbatical & Jubilee Years (210-226)
- Court & Judicial Procedure (227-262)
- Injuries & Damages (263-266)
- Property & Property Rights (267-277)
- Criminal Laws (278-284)
- Punishment & Restitution (285-308)
- Prophecy (309-311)
- Idolatry (312-357)
- Agriculture & Animal Husbandry (358-364)
- Clothing (365-367)
- Firstborn (368-371)
- Cohanim & Levites (372-401)
- Tithes & Taxes (402-425)
- Temple & Sanctuary (426-458)
- Sacrifices & Offerings (459-560)
- Ritual Purity (561-576)
- Lepers (577-580)
- King (581-587)
- Nazarites (588-597)
- War (598-613)

Now out of all that, you can see that different mitzvot are applicable to the Cohanim, married or unmarried men, married or unmarried women, worship at the Temple, eretz Yisrael, and so on. So what mitzvot you are obligated to keep really depends on your circumstances.

3. Messiah's fulfillment of :
- He did not fulfill everything. See point one for further details.

4. The Counsel of Yerushalyim:
- Let's take a look at the book of Acts:
- Ya'akov haTzeddik said "Because of this I say, They should not trouble those who from the goyim have turned toward Eloah. But let it be sent to them that they should separate themselves from the uncleanness of that which is sacrificed to idols and from sexual immorality and from that which is strangled and from blood. For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Sabbath." Acts 15:19-21

Okay, so now we can see that the intention of the Yerushalayim Counsel was to start new believers off with a few minimal mitzvot, and then they would gradually learn the rest as they attended synagogue and heard the read from the bimah every Shabbat.
The same is true of converts today. Just ask your local Rabbi. They start them off by teaching them some of the mitzvot, and then as they attend synagogue, they gradually learn more.

Mark said:

It's an interesting dilema that "habag" presents: were the sacrifices done away with by Yeshua and rendered illigitimate at the rending of the veil? There are two perspectives that explain this, still being observant and still keeping Scriptural integrity.

The first is that Temple sacrifices would still be righteous and appropriate if there still stood a Temple. Paul had no problem beng at charges with those who had sacrifices to make in Acts 21. Equally, to suggest that sacrifices were necessary for salvation before Yeshua's sacrifice is to condemn many of the prophets to Hell (Ezekiel and Daniel didn't perform sacrifices, they died in Babylon.) Sacrifices are a form of worship, appropriate in the place which God shall choose, and not otherwise appropriate at all.

The other perspective is gleaned from Hebrews 2 through 5. Yeshua stands as our High Priest and is the true sacrifice which all other forms were meant to represent. The sacrificial system has, then, not been done away with, only relocated; which is nothing surprising or new. It moved from the wilderness to Shiloh, from Shiloh to Jerusalem, and is now before the heavenly throne of God.

I do believe that once the Temple is rebuilt, sacrifices will (and must) be observed.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

In regard to discussion about the sacrificial system and the temple, there is already a thread dedicated to this subject. Let us carry on the discussion there.

Shalom,

Reuel

[habag]

Hello Rayan,

I am confused. I thought you encouraged me to go to the appropriate forum to discuss this. So I went to 'Paul's Writtings..' thinking it was the place. I mean, I certianly do not think Paul supports your postions! But where is the place we should discuss these things??

By the way, the sacrifices were done away in Messiah. If they are EVER done again, as the AntiChrist will do, it will be an abomination to God, insulting the Spirit of grace in Messiah!

I mean tell me, are sacrifices eternal, 'I will always have a man to sit on David's throne, and Levites to offer up burnt offering before Me..' I thought the last enemy to be destroyed was death!

We must not go back and live in the shadow, as you wish to do. The reality of Christ is here. Moshe is dead!

habag

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

I am confused. I thought you encouraged me to go to the appropriate forum to discuss this. So I went to 'Paul's Writtings..'

Dear Habag,

There are already threads dedicated to the subjects you mentioned. This is why I asked you to carry on in these threads. Please consider the cautionary statement made earlier to you as you are in violation of the forum guidelines.

Shalom,

Reuel