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Post by Blake on Feb 14, 2005 1:19:23 GMT -8
Please elaborate on this because I do find this very interesting. Oh which part of my statement would you like me to elaborate on? Ya'akov HaJushur or my understanding of the the Mediator (ArkAngel Mika'el, Anegl of YHVH, and the Metatron)? |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 14, 2005 10:50:46 GMT -8
Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that you where a Kaballist. I was just describing the writings you were referencing. I do agree that these writings and many of the other apocrypha can be beneficial study helps  Unfortunately, many consider them much more than that. Shalom b'Yeshua, Reuel |
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Post by The 614th Mitzvot on Feb 16, 2005 14:38:32 GMT -8
Elaborate on Michael and Yohshuah HaMoshiach, if you would.
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Post by Blake on Feb 16, 2005 18:55:52 GMT -8
Elaborate on Michael and Yohshuah HaMoshiach, if you would. First I would like to note that the term "Archangel" is only used twice in the Bible. The first in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" The voice of the archangel is described in accordance with the second coming. The only time this archangel is named is in Jude 9: Jude 1:9 Yet *Michael the archangel*, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Not the similarity with this Tanakh verse: Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the *angel of the LORD*, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? The Catholics and others teach that there are seven Archangels who are prayed too etc. but the Bible only teaches one. The compound Greek word "Arche" and "Aggelos" can literally mean "Lord of All the Angels" or "Highest of the Messangers". Many times you see the Angel of YHVH speaking for Him and giving promises and making covenents with men in the Bible. This Being is different from all other angels, because He speaks with authority from YHVH himself. Note this passage in Joshua: Josh 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? Josh 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as *captain of the host* of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? Josh 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. The great warrior Joshua bowed down and worshipped this being. Any other time when a normal angel is worshipped he rebukes those who worships him but this ArchAngel if you will did not for he came down with all the authority and glory of YHVH Himself. Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: More inforamtion is availible here. www.aloha.net/~mikesch/michael.htm |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 16, 2005 21:28:08 GMT -8
Does TeNakh directly refer to Mashiach as an Angel? What do you think about the following passage?...
"You made him a little lower than the angels. You crowned him with glory and honor.
You have put all things in subjection under his feet." For in that he subjected all things to him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we don't see all things subjected to him, yet.
But we see him who has been made a little lower than the angels, Yeshua, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of G'd he should taste of death for everyone."
Ivrim (Hebrews) 2:7-9
I understand that the passage from which it is quoted in Tehellim (Psalms) employs "elohim" instead of instead of "malak". But, it does seems to indicate angel. And, many scholars have translated it as much. The Greek in the book of Hebrews does translate it "Angel" and perhaps for a good reason. If Mashiach was created a little lower than the angels than wouldn't this mean that at least He is not an angel Himself? I just don't see TeNaKh -clearly- present Mashiach as an Angel.
Mashiach created everything including the Angels. How then could He be an Angel? I see the many interesting connections, but they are too vague for me to build a firm foundation on. I am not so much against the idea that Mashiach can hold the function of a messenger (angel), but I don't think that it can be clearly said that he is the Arch Angel Michael. I am of course still open to studying it out.
Shalom,
Reuel
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Post by Blake on Feb 16, 2005 21:58:49 GMT -8
Does TeNakh directly refer to Mashiach as an Angel? What do you think about the following passage?... "You made him a little lower than the angels. You crowned him with glory and honor.
You have put all things in subjection under his feet." For in that he subjected all things to him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we don't see all things subjected to him, yet.
But we see him who has been made a little lower than the angels, Yeshua, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of G'd he should taste of death for everyone." Ivrim (Hebrews) 2:7-9 I understand that the passage from which it is quoted in Tehellim (Psalms) employs "elohim" instead of instead of "malak". But, it does seems to indicate angel. And, many scholars have translated it as much. The Greek in the book of Hebrews does translate it "Angel" and perhaps for a good reason. If Mashiach was created a little lower than the angels than wouldn't this mean that at least He is not an angel Himself? I just don't see TeNaKh -clearly- present Mashiach as an Angel. Mashiach created everything including the Angels. How then could He be an Angel? I see the many interesting connections, but they are too vague for me to build a firm foundation on. I am not so much against the idea that Mashiach can hold the function of a messenger (angel), but I don't think that it can be clearly said that he is the Arch Angel Michael. I am of course still open to studying it out. Shalom, Reuel What is an angel? Angel simply means "messenger". The Apostles were Angels (or Messengers) for the Messiah. The Prophets were angels before the apostles. There are heavenly beings that are called angels that God sometimes uses to transmit certain messages but an angel does not have to be such. If you looked at the link the Bible study explains this. The "Messenger of YHVH" was not the same as normal Angels, remember how Joshua worshipped him. Messenger or Angel of YHVH is His voice and hand. God's instrument for communicating with man and I believe also the instrument He used in the creation of the universe. ArchAngel can simply mean "Lord of all the Angels" and doesn't neccesarily imply that bearer of the title is in fact an angel in the regular sense. The point that I'm trying to make is that the Messiah has always held the authority and power of YHVH from the Beginning, even in a pre-incarnate form. This isn't an exactly vital doctrine of my mine, it is just one of the quirks of my theology and eschatology. I can see none other than the voice of messiah raising the righteous dead from the grave, and it is written that the voice of the archangel Mika'al shall call them up. I would like to discuss theology with you sometime Reuel, do you have AIM or another Instant Message client? |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 16, 2005 22:12:13 GMT -8
I acknowledged this in my previous post...
In regards to the passage in Hebrews, if it is simply speaking of men...this would not make sense. Why would the passage say that Messiah was made a little lower than men? Do know of any clear scriptures that clearly says that Mashiach is Michael?
Would scripture prohibit Michael (assuming he is not Mashiach) to do such a thing by order of G'd? Also, can you please reference which passage that men are worshiping Arch Angel Michael with his approval?
Shalom,
Reuel
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Post by Blake on Feb 17, 2005 2:07:11 GMT -8
"In regards to the passage in Hebrews, if it is simply speaking of men...this would not make sense. Why would the passage say that Messiah was made a little lower than men? Do know of any clear scriptures that clearly says that Mashiach is Michael? "
Hebrews was not speaking of men and I did not mean that, I was simply saying that "angel" means messenger and can refer to men and heavenly beings.
I think it is quite clear to me looking through all the passages of the Messenger of YHVH, the texts of Michael in Daniel, and those in the new testament.
"Would scripture prohibit Michael (assuming he is not Mashiach) to do such a thing by order of G'd? Also, can you please reference which passage that men are worshiping Arch Angel Michael with his approval?"
No, there is no scripture that would prohibit him from doing so. It is simply a belief, that does not contradict anything in scripture.
And, I never said any texts have men worshipping Mika'el, but Angel of YHVH (whom I believe to be the same Being).
Jos 5:13 It happened, when Yehoshua was by Yericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Yehoshua went to him, and said to him, Are you for us, or for our adversaries?
Jos 5:14 He said, No; but I have come now as commander of the YHVH's army. Yehoshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said to him, What says my lord to his servant?
Jos 5:15 The prince of the YHVH's army said to Yehoshua, Put off your shoe from off your foot; for the place whereon you stand is holy. Yehoshua did so. (HNV)
If this was a Being without the authority and power that belongs only to YHVH and His Son then He would've surely rebuked Joshua for worshipping him. But he did not. Who is the Commander of YHVH's army?
Rev 12:7 And there was war in Heaven, Mikha’el and his angels waging war with the Dragon. And the Dragon and his angels waged war, (MRC)
None other than the He who led all the forces of Heaven against the Satan and the treachorous angels.
Dan 10:13 `And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;
Here Mika'el is named first among the Princes in Heaven.
Dan 10:21 But I will tell you that which is inscribed in the writing of truth: and there is none who holds with me against these, but Mikha'el your prince. (HNV)
Dan 12:1 At that time shall Mikha'el stand up, the great prince who stands for the children of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who shall be found written in the book. (HNV)
Now why would Mika'el be mentioned in this verse referring to the Second Coming, and not the Messiah?
Because Mika'el (He who is like God) is none other than the Messiah.
In Jewish tradition, Mika'el is also called "Lion of Judah", another title Messiah is known by.
Thank you for encouraging me to study dear brother.
Shalom.
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 17, 2005 9:55:42 GMT -8
Thank you for reminding me about the language of this passage. Good points. I will look further into it.
Shalom,
Reuel
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from Sinai and transmitted it to Yoheshuah; Yoheshuah to the Shoftim; the Shoftim to the Nev'yim; and the Nev'yim transmitted it throughout Judea. It came BACK to Yohshuah HaMoshiach who retransmitted it to the rest of the world through Reb Sha'ul and Reb Cephas.
