Re: The two witnesses

[Vaneide]

Shalom,

I want to know, who will be the two witnesses?

Because, when I read Ap 11, I can see something that I din't see before.

[Frank T. Clark]

Prophetic interpretation is tricky. Some have said that the two witnesses are the Old and New Testament, the Word of God.

[Vaneide]

Have a look in this commentary about that.

tzion.org/articles/rev.html

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Of recent, I have heard the intepretation (I don't know if a agree) that the two olive trees are the Jews, and Gentiles whom have been grafted into the same root that are a witness unto Yeshua HaMashiach, and His Father's . Another interpretation is that the two witnesses are Moshe, and Eliyahu as seen together with Yeshua in Matthew 17:1-11 in which Yeshua says that Eliyahu will come and restore all things (which had it's first fulfillment in Yochanan the imerser (John the Baptist). But, all things have -not- been restored, therefore their must be a future fulfillment of the prophecy regarding Eliyahu. I tend to lean towards Moshe, and Eliyahu as the coming two witnesses whom also represent , and prophecy.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

[JB]

I've always been torn between seeing the two witnesses as being Moshe and Eliyah, or as Eliyah and Enoch.

Shalom,

JB

[The 614th Mitzvot]

My ballot is casted for Eliyahu HaNavi and his vice-witness ( ) Enoch HaTzadik. I think so because these two men never died and every man must die. Every body must die, unless Enoch did die and when it said he was "taken up" it only meant his spirit. Can someone please elucidate on that for me. If that is the case than it will probably be Moshe Rabbenu and Eliyahu HaNavi.

[JB]

My ballot is casted for Eliyahu HaNavi and his vice-witness ( ) Enoch HaTzadik. I think so because these two men never died and every man must die.

My reasoning precisely

Every body must die, unless Enoch did die and when it said he was "taken up" it only meant his spirit.

It would seem to me that what is being said in the is that he did not die, partly because it seems rather odd to me that it would not just say that he had died.

But also, in Hebrews 11:5, we read:

By faith Enoch was taken up to heaven so that he did not see death; he was seen no longer, for God took him away: for before he was taken, witness had been given that he was well-pleasing to God

[Chizuk Emunah]

I also believe it will be Eliyahu and Enoch. Although we won't really know for sure until they make themselves known.

[Blake]

I do not belive the two witnesses to be literal men... The Revelation uses symbold throughout and it would odd to take this particular verse literally.

I think this verse probaly refers to the two testaments.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom Blake!

Welcome to Ahavat Elohim Messianic Discussion Forums

I do not belive the two witnesses to be literal men... The Revelation uses symbold throughout and it would odd to take this particular verse literally.

I think this verse probaly refers to the two testaments.

I have heard this interpretation before. In the light in which you interpret this, how do you explain the following passage...

"I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
These are the two olive trees and the two menorot, standing before the Lord of the earth.
If anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies. If anyone desires to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
These have the power to shut up the sky, that it may not rain during the days of their prophecy. They have power over the waters, to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them, and kill them.
Their dead bodies will be in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sedom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
From among the peoples, tribes, languages, and nations people will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not allow their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb."
- Rev. 11:3-9

Brachot b'Yeshua
(Blessings in Yeshua),

Reuel

[Blake]

""I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." "

Since I understand a day in prophecy to equal one year, it should be obvious that this cannot refer to two men being on earth for 1,260 years.

"These are the two olive trees and the two menorot, standing before the Lord of the earth. "

Refers to how the Tanakh (coming to the Jews) and the New Testament which although is for Jews as well is the testament which brings the Gentiles together with them under one nation. The two lights or menorahs refers to how the testaments are a light to those who read them.

"If anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies. If anyone desires to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
These have the power to shut up the sky, that it may not rain during the days of their prophecy. (Spiritual Elijah = Gentile Church, New Testament, Testimony of Jesus) They have power over the waters, to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. (Spiritual Moses = Jewish Church, Tanakh, Commandments of God)"

"When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them, and kill them. "

In Daniel we know that the Evil One will seem to prevail over the saints and their testimonies and in Daniel's siter-book Revelation the War of the Satan against God's people is exemplified again.


"Their dead bodies will be in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sedom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
From among the peoples, tribes, languages, and nations people will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not allow their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb."[/b]
- Rev. 11:3-9"

I beleive that the "dead bodies" repsresent the two witnesses (or churches/testaments) when the Ruach HaQuodesch is again taken from earth and the ressurection of them is the same as when Messiah returns to take them and the righteous dead to heaven.


This is a facinating subject, I need to study more I would be glad to hear input from all of you.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Shalom Blake,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the "Two Witnesses". I find this interpretation in regards to the "Two Witnesses" to be difficult.

Since I understand a day in prophecy to equal one year, it should be obvious that this cannot refer to two men being on earth for 1,260 years.

This would only be obvious if a day in prophecy actually always translates to a thousand years (which it does not). According to this logic some prophecies regarding the coming of Messiah would have Him coming in the Middle Ages. When G'd speaks of a day as a thousand years this cannot be taken literal because He is outside of time. It is interesting to me that many whom make a habit of allegorizing/spiritualizing the scriptures would even take this phrase "thousand years" being a day as being literal. At any rate, in the Hebrew idiom a "thousand years" is a way to describe something that is infinite. An example of this would be when G'd describes His everlasting covenant that lasts until a "thousand generations". There is not enough time in Biblical prophecy for a thousand generations to even take place (unless of course one believes that the Earth is Millions of years old.). One has to get fairly creative to spiritualize the whole passage that I referenced above.

In regards to the passage in Zechariah 4 making reference to these two “anointed ones”, how can these be the two testaments when this passage was written at a time when the Brit Chadashah (as we understand it) had not been established? And, if we take the number of 1,260 years and interpret the two witnesses as being the eternal "two testaments" than we can clearly see that these "two testaments" have been around for much longer than 1,260 years. In either case, the math does not work. Also, in regards to understanding the idea of “two testaments”…I don’t think that it can even be viewed in this manner as the two testaments that one generally thinks of is the Mosaic covenant, and the Brit Chadshah (New. Test.). But, when one searches deeper we find that the covenants are a compound covenant and are really viewed as “echad” (one). Along this line of thinking there really is more than just “two testaments” as there are more to the compound covenant of G’d than just the Mosaic and Messianic covenant. Are the previous covenants that make up the compound covenant of G’d not considered “testaments”? And, if they are testaments just like the Mosaic and Messianic covenant, than why not have more than two witnesses mentioned in Zechariah 4 and in Revelation? These are just my thoughts on interpretation that the two witnesses are the Mosaic and Messianic covenants. I think that with these prophecies there are many unknowns and I reserve the right to be wrong

Shalom,

Reuel

[Digitaria]

Dear All,

I also reserve the right also to be wrong, however I believe the two wittnesses are yet to make themselves known during the end time.

I think the two olive trees are the two wittnesses and that they are the oil in which makes the menorah shine.

I think the consuming fire of their mouth elludes to the fact they are given the responsibility of proclaiming the pronouncements of G-d.

Traditonally two wittnesses were what secular and religious law required before any matter could be investigated further. They are G-ds wittnesses of the infedility of Israel and Judah, they will speak of the righteous king of Heaven, they will speak of the death of the prophets whose innocent blood has polluted the land. They will speak of the in-justice towards their anointed King Yeshua and the flagrent dishonour towards his appointed representitive.

They will stand in the gap looking for souls which are crying out as they do to make the way of G-d straight.
They will probably be killed in away similar to a hebrew accused of blastephomy either by stoning or impaling, they are said to be killed outside the bounds of Jerusalem the great city itself.

It is said people will exchange gifts with one another on this day. I do believe that the end time is between the 1st and 10th of the Hebrew month of Tishri between Rosh hashanah and Atonement Day, seeing as those they are saved from the hour of test which is to come upon the in-habited earth I suggest that their ministry would come to an end around this time.
I suggest that like the christian christmas Rosh Hashanah will have a more prevelant part in our time when these events take place, with gifts of mercy and of commercial value are given to each other because of the word spoken about the two wittnesses, that they poured out their soul in the face of death, the oil or spirit within them being poured out so that you might have light.

In the sect of the Nazarenes, I heard that they would prove themselves faultless before G-d and their ministry would be around three, three and a half years, so that no bribe would they take, no sheep would they steal and in righteous judgement they would take up the cause of the pitiable and poor one. I think they will do all of this whilst encouraging the people of G-d to return to their in-heritance.

I believe they will physically die but they are spiritually alive where not even Elijah can claim to this and restitiution with G-d had not yet occured until the atoneing sacrifice of Lord Jesus himself.

I do think that the two wittnesses will for the purposes of religious and secular law that the two wittnesses will be male over the age of 12 or 13 whom fulfull the conditions in place for the testimony of a suitable wittness. I think by the word of their mouth they will sentance un-repentant sinners to death by the word of G-d and for this they will be hated by many.
I believe the two wittnesses will be of the family of Israelites and bring things to peoples attention which has been forgotton. They will reveal sacred secrets which have previously been sealed up and they will make the way straight for G-d and the Kings of Heaven.

I believe they will effect the introduction of the new eternal court of apostles of the christ which will sit in judgement of the tribes of Israel.


Thats Just what I think,
Hope it helps

Love

Lisa

[The 614th Mitzvot]

Bravo and thanks for the input! Very enlightening.

[Rut]

Reuel said:

Of recent, I have heard the intepretation (I don't know if a agree) that the two olive trees are the Jews, and Gentiles whom have been grafted into the same root that are a witness unto Yeshua HaMashiach, and His Father's . Another interpretation is that the two witnesses are Moshe, and Eliyahu as seen together with Yeshua in Matthew 17:1-11 in which Yeshua says that Eliyahu will come and restore all things (which had it's first fulfillment in Yochanan the imerser (John the Baptist). But, all things have -not- been restored, therefore their must be a future fulfillment of the prophecy regarding Eliyahu. I tend to lean towards Moshe, and Eliyahu as the coming two witnesses whom also represent , and prophecy.

Shalom chaverim,

Reuel

Just a Taste of His Finest Wine. John 2:10