Living in Egypt

[Seeker2]

Trying to live a observant life has been challenging at times I admit, but not so difficult as it became today. Though some of you who have been in this situation might have some words of encouragement. One of my teens plays football. Hasnt played on a team in several years, but this year has wanted to go out. They began practice several weeks ago and all was going great until the coach announces Friday night and Saturday practice! I don't need to spell out the issues! If he doesnt practice, he doesnt play (or he plays less). What have you all done in this situation??? I am loath to make him quit as he is at the age where it will do him alot of good to get out and make friends (he is shy) and he needs to get involved in his new school. Words of advise? ;D

[Yitzchak]

This is always a tough situation. A Rabbi friend and I were discussing this a few weeks ago.

There are many situation where a congregant is forced to work on Friday night or Saturday. We of course pray with them, and encourage them to keep their eyes open for a new position, which does not require Sabbath work. However, we do not insist that they quit their job and live without an income. In many cases, we will suggest that they try to see if their boss will allow them to go in later on a Saturday, so they can at least come to services and worship.

I am assuming that the lifestyle is one that is new for you, and that you are slowly transitioning into. I would suggest that you sit down with your son, and explain to him your feelings, and what the scriptures say about the Sabbath. Let him make an informed decision, rather than forcing him to do something. He will never want to observe if he is forced.

This is just my opinion, and I am sure you will get others.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Mark]

The first thing that I would suggest is, if your son is amiable, to discuss the issue privately with your coach. Usually, folks are very accomodating of religious convictions (in fact, in some cases, legally bound to be). If the coach is not helpful, it is not inappropriate to discuss the issue with the vice principle of the school (who will be more connected with existing school policies).

My son played baseball for Boys and Girls Club for a couple of years. As it turned out, the director of the program was 7th Day Adventist.

I completely agree with Yitzchak's position and apply the same reasoning to my own children in many areas - to include, what movies they choose to watch, how they spend their money, and what relationships they are involved in. They know that I have a brake pedal on my side; but they also very much appreciate that I don't apply it unless I see real danger.

[Seeker2]

My Rabbi also feels as you do...that he should make an informed decision as he is 16. But at what point is the burden in this case shifted from the parent to the child?? Especially given the added consideration that until fairly recently in his life, he was raised as a christian and it wasn't an issue. I don't want him to become resentful of G-d or me, but this isnt a "minor" sin! (some have suggested that it isnt breaking the shabbat as he is not really "working" at all but "Playing"). EEEEEKKK!

[Yitzchak]

seeker2 said:

My Rabbi also feels as you do...that he should make an informed decision as he is 16. But at what point is the burden in this case shifted from the parent to the child?? Especially given the added consideration that until fairly recently in his life, he was raised as a christian and it wasn't an issue. I don't want him to become resentful of G-d or me, but this isnt a "minor" sin! (some have suggested that it isnt breaking the shabbat as he is not really "working" at all but "Playing"). EEEEEKKK!

I think I might have a different perspective than most on this subject. In my studies, I have been firmly convinced that the Mitzvot concerning Shabbat observance were directly connected to the building of the Mishkan. It is in this context that HaShem directed the Israelites to refrain from work. Thus, I think that we all know what is work for us and what is not. Of course, the most important issue is to have a time devoted to HaShem in prayer and study during this time.

As to your question of responsibility, I think both Mark and I dealt with that in our original replies to you. Since, I had commented that observance is new to you and your family. the last thing you want to do is have your son reject G-d, because he is being made to submit to something that is foreign to him. You want your observance to draw him in to the beauty of the Shabbat, and not push him away.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Nachshon]

I think you should definately talk to your son about it, but I'm not sure that the problem can be handed to him. Please understand that I'm speaking as a 17-year-old here. It would be nice if a problem like this were that easily solved, but it really isn't. He is under your authority. Discuss it with him, explain it to him. But in the end, the decision is still yours, as his father. If you don't feel right about letting him play on Shabbat, then don't.
Here's an anecdote that explains why we observe Shabbat very well: In Revolutionary France, they wanted to do away with all vestiges of Church influence, so they got rid of the seven-day week, and went to a ten-day week. Their horses began dropping dead in the fields from exhaustion. We're designed to work six days and then rest on the seventh. It's the healthiest thing for our bodies.

[Mark]

Nachson,

I'd be very curious as to what might come of a discussion you have with your own Dad about this subject. A wise parent doesn't treat his children as subjects; but grows them to be able to make decisions. Yes, you are right. It is the parent's responsibility to see that the children live wisely and grow to become righteous. Yet, if that process has not been well established by the early teen years, it is not going to work to suddenly find an iron hand. Also, the parent who has exercised tight control on his children, noit allowing them to participate in the process of growing in righteousness (making wise decisions) suddenly finds his children unequiped to make those decisions once out from under the parent's protective authority. Typically, such an upbringing leaves a child either ineffectual as a member of society (sometimes staying home until will into their 30s) or going through a very traumatic time of rebellion and testing. Ephesians 6:4 and Colossians 3:21 both speak to this.\

[Nachshon]

A discussion of Shabbat with my dad? The outcome of those discussions is usually that I have a stricter view of being Shomar-Shabbat than he does.
I wasn't suggesting ruling with an iron hand. I was merely suggesting that the final authority is the father's, and that for that reason the final responsibility is his aswell.
I don't completely understand this line of thinking that says that parents must allow their children to make their own moral decisions or they will be unable to make decisions. My parents wouldn't allow me to do things that they believed were immoral, and now I am more strict than they in terms of Kasher, modesty, Shabbat, etc. I am perfectly capable of making my own moral decisions, as I have to every day at work.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Mark]

As you put, you ARE making your own decisions at just now 17. How would you respond to your father if he were to only serve food for you at your home that did not meet your kashuit requirements? What we are saying is that training means just that- exercising the mind in the ability to make decisions. Obviously, your father has been doing this for some time; and I believe that this a great credit both to you and to him. You don't take an infant, make all the decisions for him for eighteen years then suddenly release him into society. No, you start allowing him choices- first, which color underwear he'd like to wear, next what flavor ice cream, eventually who he'd like at his birthday party. As the child grows, the decisions become more complex and sophisticated. Yet, here we have a new equation- the rules change for a family who is beginning to learn to walk according to . Not everyone buys into it at the same rate or deals with issues at the same time. You don't suddenly take the 12-18 year old back to the pre-school decisions making stage. You have to find a way of working through the process with grace, compassion and understanding.

[Yitzchak]

mark said:

As you put, you ARE making your own decisions at just now 17. How would you respond to your father if he were to only serve food for you at your home that did not meet your kashuit requirements? What we are saying is that training means just that- exercising the mind in the ability to make decisions. Obviously, your father has been doing this for some time; and I believe that this a great credit both to you and to him. You don't take an infant, make all the decisions for him for eighteen years then suddenly release him into society. No, you start allowing him choices- first, which color underwear he'd like to wear, next what flavor ice cream, eventually who he'd like at his birthday party. As the child grows, the decisions become more complex and sophisticated. Yet, here we have a new equation- the rules change for a family who is beginning to learn to walk according to . Not everyone buys into it at the same rate or deals with issues at the same time. You don't suddenly take the 12-18 year old back to the pre-school decisions making stage. You have to find a way of working through the process with grace, compassion and understanding.

Amein. Well put Achi.

Shalom,

Yitzchak

[Nachshon]

I'm not making decisions because my parents decided it was a good idea for me to, I'm making them because I end up in situations when my parents aren't there.

[Mark]

Nachson,

You have consistently presented yourself in this venue as a very competent and well-put-together young person. It is often difficult for me to remember that you are not much older than my own children. I remember praying often that Adonai would send me a mentor, someone who would be there to train me up in the way thatI shoudl go- not realizing that He had sent that person, my father. Dad just didn't do it quite the way that I would have wished or expected. In many ways (and under most circumstances) he simply shoved me outof the nest and suggested that maybe itwould be best if I learned how to fly. What I realize now, but certainly didn't then, is that he would only do that when he had looked around (still using baby bird analogy) tomake sure there weren't any cats around. It seemed to me as neglectful or at least disinterest; but was very much the process that I've suggested to you already.

Now, my methods are very different from my Dad's. I am much more involved with my kids than my Dad was with me. I woud see him at dinner time, or sometimes in passing, I would sit under his teaching at church (Baptist minister); but I have very few memories of actual time we spent together in shared experiences. But if you asked my kids if they thought I spent as much time with them and gave them the kind of guidance they thought they needed, they might suggest there are a few weaknesses. (Of course, there are.) Yet, in ten to twenty years, they may see, looking back, that those areas where they had hoped I was hands on, I was actually standing back, watching them gain their balance as they learned to fly on their own in a specific area of life.

I don't know you, nor your parents. It could be that they don't spend the kind fo time with you that you really need. I don't see that, from this extremely limited perpsective. I see a fellow who has savvy and godly insight that doesn't come from a person who has not been nurtured in the Word of Adonai, especially at 17.

[Mark]

Seeker2,

I'm sorry if it seems that your thread has gone a different direction than what you may have been hoping for. I think the discussion is pertinent and, I hope, beneficial to you. Please know that you are in my prayers. I am curious as to how things work out for you.

Blessings,

Mark

[Nachshon]

Shalom akhiy Mark,
I did not mean that my parent's aren't there for me, I simply mean that they're not present. I have a job, and I have friends...well...sort of, anyway.
But I, and my parents, thank you for the compliments.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Yitzchak]

nachshon said:

Shalom akhiy Mark,
I did not mean that my parent's aren't there for me, I simply mean that they're not present. I have a job, and I have friends...well...sort of, anyway.
But I, and my parents, thank you for the compliments.

Shalom,
Nachshon

Nachson,

I think the main point is that your parents raised you as a young man who is now able to make informed decisions. They trust that you will make the right ones, and will be there to help you when you make the wrong ones.

Keep in mind also that Seeker is new to a observant lifestyle. Thus, her children were raised in a Christian environment, which did not include the observance of Sabbath. While any parent can insist that their children follow their rules, is it not more important that the children learn the joy of observing Shabbat?

This is the reason that both Mark and I took the position that we did. This is why we suggested that she sit down and speak to him and then let him make his own decisions. If he makes the wrong decision, she could of course insist on obedience to her rules, but one would doubt that her son would ever see Shabbat as a joy.

Shalom,

Yitzchak