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Post by alon on Sept 11, 2024 14:32:08 GMT -8
I’ve said I am in this for the truth in scripture. So when an inconvenient truth (possibly) arises, I cannot imply ignore it. I am posting an excerpt and somewhat condensed article by Rabbi Pesach Wolicki, a rabbinic Jew. What he is talking about, but doesn’t say is our responsibility to follow the 613 mitzvoth. This is probably the biggest complaint from Jewish people about Messianics calling themselves Jews.
My position is well known here: I do not think we are bound by these latter rabbinic rulings. But R Wolicki makes a compelling argument. If he is right, we are responsible, bound by these rulings. If it turns out he is not, this still is a great insight into how rabbinic Jews see us.
Let’s discuss this before coming to any conclusions one way or the other. Any Jewish readers are welcome to comment as well. Here’s the (redacted) article:
Shoftim (Judges)- Why is the Rabbinic Law Legitimate? Deuteronomy 17:10-11
10 Then you shall do according to what they declare to you from that place that the Lord will choose. And you shall be careful to do according to all that they direct you.
11 According to the instructions that they give you, and according to the decision which they pronounce to you, you shall do. You shall not turn aside from the verdict that they declare to you, either to the right hand or to the left.
For many believers outside of Judaism, rabbinic Jewish practice appears to stray far from biblical instructions, and is in fact just “doctrines of men”:
Mark 7:7 in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
Matthew 15:9 “‘in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
Many see adherence to laws that are not stated explicitly in Scripture as unbiblical. So, where does rabbinic legitimacy of law come from? The key verse providing the obligation to listen to the rulings and interpretations of the rabbis is found in Torah:You shall act in accordance with the instructions given you and the ruling handed down to you; you must not deviate from the verdict that they announce to you either to the right or to the left, Deuteronomy 17:11
Many translations imply the meaning is not a requirement to obey laws enacted by the rabbis, but is limited to enforcing the ruling in a court case. This interpretation is based on the context of the verse (read Deuteronomy 17:2-13). Because this passage can be understood as referring to specific cases that are brought before the court, Christian understanding of verse 11 is mandating acceptance of the sentence in a specific case rather than as a blanket requirement to adhere to rabbinic authority.
The problem with this understanding is twofold. First, if this were the meaning of the verse, it would render v. 11 redundant, as v. 10, already stated:You shall do according to the statement which they pronounce upon you in that place which the Lord chooses. And you shall be careful to do according to all that they instruct you.
v.11 must therefore be teaching us something else. The second issue is that the word Torah does not mean “verdict” or “sentence.” It is never used this way.
But why the obligation to listen to the rabbis? Why not simply allow each person to read the word of God and interpret it the best they can? Consider the following:
On six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Shabbat of complete rest, holy to Hashem; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. Exodus 35:2
Torah mandates the death penalty for anyone who does any work on the Sabbath day. But what is the definition of work? To say that the interpretation of the law is up to each individual renders this law impossible to follow.
Imagine someone brought before the court for moving furniture in preparation for a large Sabbath meal. Is that “work”? It’s one thing to say each person has his own definition of “work.” But the Bible mandates a death penalty for such a violation. How could any case ever be adjudicated? Clearly, to have a death penalty for work on the Sabbath day, there must be a universally agreed upon and legislated definition of “work.” And if we have agreed upon definitions of work that are legally binding on everyone, we have now accepted the authority of rabbinic interpretation.
Torah assumes there will be an authoritative body that interprets and implements laws. There is no way around this.
Two, the Bible prophecies that the people of Israel will spend many generations in exile. The nation will be scattered and separated from each other. Without a unified interpretation of the law, the Jewish people would, over time become separate peoples with different religions. The glue that has kept the Jewish people together during exile is adherence to the same set of rabbinic laws.
During centuries of exile many laws either concerning Temple worship or that are only applicable in the land of Israel were impossible to keep. Without rabbinic laws mandating worship and ritual observance beyond what is written in Torah, there would be no way for the Jewish people to maintain any kind of cohesive religious identity.
Without the steadfast commitment to rabbinic law, the Jewish people would not have survived the exile. Rather than being a burden as often portrayed, rabbinic law is critical to God’s plan for the survival and flourishing of Israel.
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Post by Questor on Sept 12, 2024 8:23:22 GMT -8
I’ve said I am in this for the truth in scripture. So when an inconvenient truth (possibly) arises, I cannot imply ignore it. I am posting an excerpt and somewhat condensed article by Rabbi Pesach Wolicki, a rabbinic Jew. What he is talking about, but doesn’t say is our responsibility to follow the 613 mitzvoth. This is probably the biggest complaint from Jewish people about Messianics calling themselves Jews.
My position is well known here: I do not think we are bound by these latter rabbinic rulings. But R Wolicki makes a compelling argument. If he is right, we are responsible, bound by these rulings. If it turns out he is not, this still is a great insight into how rabbinic Jews see us.
Let’s discuss this before coming to any conclusions one way or the other. Any Jewish readers are welcome to comment as well. Here’s the (redacted) article:
Shoftim (Judges)- Why is the Rabbinic Law Legitimate? Deuteronomy 17:10-11
10 Then you shall do according to what they declare to you from that place that the Lord will choose. And you shall be careful to do according to all that they direct you.
11 According to the instructions that they give you, and according to the decision which they pronounce to you, you shall do. You shall not turn aside from the verdict that they declare to you, either to the right hand or to the left.
For many believers outside of Judaism, rabbinic Jewish practice appears to stray far from biblical instructions, and is in fact just “doctrines of men”:
Mark 7:7 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
Matthew 15:9 “‘in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
Many see adherence to laws that are not stated explicitly in Scripture as unbiblical. So, where does rabbinic legitimacy of law come from? The key verse providing the obligation to listen to the rulings and interpretations of the rabbis is found in T:You shall act in accordance with the instructions given you and the ruling handed down to you; you must not deviate from the verdict that they announce to you either to the right or to the left, Deuteronomy 17:11
Many translations imply the meaning is not a requirement to obey laws enacted by the rabbis, but is limited to enforcing the ruling in a court case. This interpretation is based on the context of the verse (read Deuteronomy 17:2-13). Because this passage can be understood as referring to specific cases that are brought before the court, Christian understanding of verse 11 is mandating acceptance of the sentence in a specific case rather than as a blanket requirement to adhere to rabbinic authority.
The problem with this understanding is twofold. First, if this were the meaning of the verse, it would render v. 11 redundant, as v. 10, already stated:You shall do according to the statement which they pronounce upon you in that place which the Lord chooses. And you shall be careful to do according to all that they instruct you.
v.11 must therefore be teaching us something else. The second issue is that the word T-rah does not mean “verdict” or “sentence.” It is never used this way.
But why the obligation to listen to the rabbis? Why not simply allow each person to read the word of God and interpret it the best they can? Consider the following:
On six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Shabbat of complete rest, holy to Hashem; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. Exodus 35:2
T-rah mandates the death penalty for anyone who does any work on the Sabbath day. But what is the definition of work? To say that the interpretation of the law is up to each individual renders this law impossible to follow.
Imagine someone brought before the court for moving furniture in preparation for a large Sabbath meal. Is that “work”? It’s one thing to say each person has his own definition of “work.” But the Bible mandates a death penalty for such a violation. How could any case ever be adjudicated? Clearly, to have a death penalty for work on the Sabbath day, there must be a universally agreed upon and legislated definition of “work.” And if we have agreed upon definitions of work that are legally binding on everyone, we have now accepted the authority of rabbinic interpretation.
T-rah assumes there will be an authoritative body that interprets and implements laws. There is no way around this.
Two, the Bible prophecies that the people of Israel will spend many generations in exile. The nation will be scattered and separated from each other. Without a unified interpretation of the law, the Jewish people would, over time become separate peoples with different religions. The glue that has kept the Jewish people together during exile is adherence to the same set of rabbinic laws.
During centuries of exile many laws either concerning Temple worship or that are only applicable in the land of Israel were impossible to keep. Without rabbinic laws mandating worship and ritual observance beyond what is written in T-rah, there would be no way for the Jewish people to maintain any kind of cohesive religious identity.
Without the steadfast commitment to rabbinic law, the Jewish people would not have survived the exile. Rather than being a burden as often portrayed, rabbinic law is critical to God’s plan for the survival and flourishing of Israel.
Nice rationalization for Rabbinical decrees. Did Israel not already know what the Mitzvot were? Could they not have simply followed T-rah? We're they not supposed to?
Yes, the various halachah made Jews feel more separated from the Nations they were exiled within. It does not mean they needed to have every detail of their lives run by a man who was learned in the Oral Law, and not in T-rah.
Cherry picking out of context. Read the rest of the scriptures that the careful author skipped.
Deuteronomy 17:8-13 (CJB)
8 “If a case comes before you at your city gate which is too difficult for you to judge, concerning bloodshed, civil suit, personal injury or any other controversial issue; you are to get up, go to the place which Adonai your God will choose,
9 and appear before the cohanim, who are L’vi’im, and the judge in office at the time. Seek their opinion, and they will render a verdict for you.
10 You will then act according to what they have told you there in that place which Adonai will choose; you are to take care to act according to all their instructions.
11 In accordance with the T-rah they teach you, you are to carry out the judgment they render, not turning aside to the right or the left from the verdict they declare to you.
12 Anyone presumptuous enough not to pay attention to the cohen appointed there to serve Adonai your God or to the judge — that person must die. Thus you will exterminate such wickedness from Isra’el —
13 all the people will hear about it and be afraid to continue acting presumptuously.
1) 'from the place that the Lord will choose'. The Mishkan / Temple. Most Rabbinical decrees have been given when and where the Rabbi's chose, had no G-d given authority, and were not written down until after the Temple was destroyed in AD70.
2) 'according to the decision which they will pronounce to you, you shall do'. Which, when the judgements were handed down, were in regards to the T-rah already given, and written down, by Moshe.
Judgements are given in regard to not keeping a specific mitzvot, not given to specify every Rabbi's desires as to how a mitzvot should be kept, or to please a member of the congregation who wishes to redefine what work is.
Work is what you do to survive. Shabbat is easy, and should be, for those not involved in preparation for and in consequence of a congregational gathering.
In referencing Shabbat, there are directions given by Moshe in what to not do. Don't gather (whether manna or wood - aka food or fuel), Don't allow or cause your servants to do the same. Don't allow or cause your animals to do the same.
Don't gather goods on Shabbat to be sold the following day. By derivation, you don't buy or sell, as that would involve gathering / moving / transfering goods to be sold.
Don't light fires. Keep a holy convocation in your home. And when the offerings were to be made at the mishkan / temple, the Priests were exempted from the 'work' of gathering, preparing, and offering the required sacrifices.
Don't work, allow or cause your servants or animals to work. (If you don't know what work is, you don't work, and have never worked, whether at home or elsewhere)
What is so hard about not doing what you must do the other six days of the week to obtain what you need to provide for yourself?
And in case you haven't noticed, no mention of Rabbi's proclaiming what is work and not work is ever mentioned in the T-rah . . . there were no Rabbi's at that time. Just judges, from amongst the cohanim at the Mishkan / Temple, acting out of common sense, and referring the difficult decisions up the chain of command.
And the family traditions called Orah T-rah that somehow became written down after the Temple was destroyed in AD70?
It was never mentioned by Moshe. Don't you think that he would know?
It is in contravention of T-rah.
Deuteronomy 4:1-8 (CJB)
1 “Now, Isra’el, listen to the laws and rulings I am teaching you, in order to follow them, so that you will live; then you will go in and take possession of the land that Adonai, the God of your fathers, is giving you.
2 In order to obey the mitzvot of Adonai your God which I am giving you, do not add to what I am saying, and do not subtract from it.
3 You saw with your own eyes what Adonai did at Ba‘al-P‘or, that Adonai destroyed from among you all the men who followed Ba‘al-P‘or;
4 but you who stuck with Adonai your God are still alive today, every one of you.
5 (ii) Look, I have taught you laws and rulings, just as Adonai my God ordered me, so that you can behave accordingly in the land where you are going in order to take possession of it.
6 Therefore, observe them; and follow them; for then all peoples will see you as having wisdom and understanding. When they hear of all these laws, they will say, ‘This great nation is surely a wise and understanding people.’
7 For what great nation is there that has God as close to them as Adonai our God is, whenever we call on him?
8 What great nation is there that has laws and rulings as just as this entire T-rah which I am setting before you today?
And traditions? Every family has them. Enjoy them. Write about them. Exclude all those that don't play by your traditional rules.
Don't pretend they are T-rah.
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Post by alon on Sept 13, 2024 9:08:49 GMT -8
Calm down! I’m not telling you we need to follow the 613 mitzvoth. Just that this artical shows how contemporary Jews see this topic. Also if we are going to say we are in it for the truth, we need to face such things head on, not side-step them because they are uncomfortable. You make some good points; some not so much.
Nice rationalization for Rabbinical decrees. Did Israel not already know what the Mitzvot were? Could they not have simply followed T-rah? We're they not supposed to?
Yes, they know what Moshe said. But they also follow the rulings of both the earlier and later rabbonim. That is their prerogative.
Yes, the various halachah made Jews feel more separated from the Nations they were exiled within. It does not mean they needed to have every detail of their lives run by a man who was learned in the Oral Law, and not in T-rah.
By this I take it you mean their congregational rabbi? Most rabbonim are well versed in both Talmud and Torah, as well as the TNK. And surprisingly some are versed in the Renewed Covenant. Not that they believe in Yeshua, just for whatever reason they did further study.
Cherry picking out of context. Read the rest of the scriptures that the careful author skipped.
Deuteronomy 17:8-13 (CJB)
8 “If a case comes before you at your city gate which is too difficult for you to judge, concerning bloodshed, civil suit, personal injury or any other controversial issue; you are to get up, go to the place which Adonai your God will choose,
9 and appear before the cohanim, who are L’vi’im, and the judge in office at the time. Seek their opinion, and they will render a verdict for you.
10 You will then act according to what they have told you there in that place which Adonai will choose; you are to take care to act according to all their instructions.
11 In accordance with the T-rah they teach you, you are to carry out the judgment they render, not turning aside to the right or the left from the verdict they declare to you.
12 Anyone presumptuous enough not to pay attention to the cohen appointed there to serve Adonai your God or to the judge — that person must die. Thus you will exterminate such wickedness from Isra’el —
13 all the people will hear about it and be afraid to continue acting presumptuously.
1) 'from the place that the Lord will choose'. The Mishkan / Temple. Most Rabbinical decrees have been given when and where the Rabbi's chose, had no G-d given authority, and were not written down until after the Temple was destroyed in AD70.
Yes, in ancient Israel they wold have had either the Mishkan or Temple. Now they do not. And yes, the Oral Torah was codified many years after the Temple was destroyed. But now they only have the Synagogue, the rabbi and a Beit Din to make rulings on halachic matters. These all have authority, and I’d say it is much closer to God given than many churches.
2) 'according to the decision which they will pronounce to you, you shall do'. Which, when the judgements were handed down, were in regards to the T-rah already given, and written down, by Moshe.
God in His wisdom knew you can’t make a set of rules/laws/instructions that would cover every conceivable situation. This is why there is an Oral Torah, or halacha…
Judgements are given in regard to not keeping a specific mitzvot, not given to specify every Rabbi's desires as to how a mitzvot should be kept, or to please a member of the congregation who wishes to redefine what work is.
Members of any congregation cannot redefine halacha. A rabbi can advise on it because he is trained. A Beit Din can adjudicate on it. But individuals cannot just change it to fit their desires.
That last, by the way is one thing that plagues many Messianic congregations. Not so much Jewish ones.
Work is what you do to survive. Shabbat is easy, and should be, for those not involved in preparation for and in consequence of a congregational gathering.
The simple definition of proscribed work is any creative work; or any non-essential work. rabbi Shabbat. Food, though already repaired still must be served. But it is not always so clear. Caring for livestock however can present some problems not so easily categorized.
In referencing Shabbat, there are directions given by Moshe in what to not do. Don't gather (whether manna or wood - aka food or fuel), Don't allow or cause your servants to do the same. Don't allow or cause your animals to do the same.
Don't gather goods on Shabbat to be sold the following day. By derivation, you don't buy or sell, as that would involve gathering / moving / transfering goods to be sold.
Don't light fires. Keep a holy convocation in your home. And when the offerings were to be made at the mishkan / temple, the Priests were exempted from the 'work' of gathering, preparing, and offering the required sacrifices.
Don't work, allow or cause your servants or animals to work. (If you don't know what work is, you don't work, and have never worked, whether at home or elsewhere)
What is so hard about not doing what you must do the other six days of the week to obtain what you need to provide for yourself?
I think the Jews do that, and very well.
And in case you haven't noticed, no mention of Rabbi's proclaiming what is work and not work is ever mentioned in the T-rah . . . there were no Rabbi's at that time. Just judges, from amongst the cohanim at the Mishkan / Temple, acting out of common sense, and referring the difficult decisions up the chain of command.
There were no kings either. Things change.
And the family traditions called Orah T-rah that somehow became written down after the Temple was destroyed in AD70?
It was never mentioned by Moshe. Don't you think that he would know?
There has always been an Oral Torah, since Adam. It is quite likely that much of the written Torah came from at least one oral tradition (my opinion).
It is in contravention of T-rah.
Deuteronomy 4:1-8 (CJB)
1 “Now, Isra’el, listen to the laws and rulings I am teaching you, in order to follow them, so that you will live; then you will go in and take possession of the land that Adonai, the God of your fathers, is giving you.
2 In order to obey the mitzvot of Adonai your God which I am giving you, do not add to what I am saying, and do not subtract from it.
3 You saw with your own eyes what Adonai did at Ba‘al-P‘or, that Adonai destroyed from among you all the men who followed Ba‘al-P‘or;
4 but you who stuck with Adonai your God are still alive today, every one of you.
5 (ii) Look, I have taught you laws and rulings, just as Adonai my God ordered me, so that you can behave accordingly in the land where you are going in order to take possession of it.
6 Therefore, observe them; and follow them; for then all peoples will see you as having wisdom and understanding. When they hear of all these laws, they will say, ‘This great nation is surely a wise and understanding people.’
7 For what great nation is there that has God as close to them as Adonai our God is, whenever we call on him?
8 What great nation is there that has laws and rulings as just as this entire T-rah which I am setting before you today?
And traditions? Every family has them. Enjoy them. Write about them. Exclude all those that don't play by your traditional rules.
Every culture does that.
Don't pretend they are T-rah.
That would be a good argument if you had stated it less aggressively; made more an effort to explain. Since Torah is instruction, technically the Talmud would be instruction. The question we are asking is does it apply to us as Messianics.
Many sects do hold Talmud equal to or even above Torah. They say if you don't know Talmud you can't understand Torah. I tend to agree more with you and most Messianics. Torah is our base. But this doesn't mean we can't learn from other writings. If this were not the case, then why do we need the other 61 books?
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Post by Questor on Sept 13, 2024 13:50:50 GMT -8
Calm down! I’m not telling you we need to follow the 613 mitzvoth. Just that this artical shows how contemporary Jews see this topic. Also if we are going to say we are in it for the truth, we need to face such things head on, not side-step them because they are uncomfortable. You make some good points; some not so much.
Glad I made any good points, but I wasn't upset. Nor can anyone keep all 613 commandments stamped into the consciouslness of Talmud observant Jews. Not every law so stated is for every person. When men start keeping niddah you have the woke wackos we have running rampant in our society.
Everyone is entitled to follow whatever halachah they desire, as it keeps them safely within their community, and reminds them of their family traditions. It does not make them T-rah observant, although they may be Talmud observant. And since every yeshiva trained Jew disputes parts of the Talmud, I wonder that they think they are doing anything as G-d intended.
I wonder that any of us are.
However, no Rabbi/Teacher is entitled, or ever was, to take the place of the Leviim/Cohanim that sat in judgement over the breaking of the T-rah. Congregational leaders have been allowed to, as each scattered group sat at the feet of their Rabbi, but that does not make it legitimate. Just convenient for the group, who seem to have replaced the T-rah with the Talmud.
Is there wisdom in the Talmud? Certainly. There is in any discussion of community adherance to community standards. But it does not make it T-rah observant.
Nice rationalization for Rabbinical decrees. Did Israel not already know what the Mitzvot were? Could they not have simply followed T-rah? We're they not supposed to?
Yes, they know what Moshe said. But they also follow the rulings of both the earlier and later rabbonim. That is their prerogative.
Of course. Unfortunately, they are leading people away from T-rah by following any rabbinic decision 'as if it were equivalent or greater than T-rah', who have no authority granted since AD70. Did they need to make decisions to protect their congregations within the confines of the nations? Certainly. It was when they wrote it down, and made it equivalent to or greater than T-rah that they began their own walk away from the Judaism they had come from.
Yes, the various halachah made Jews feel more separated from the Nations they were exiled within. It does not mean they needed to have every detail of their lives run by a man, or a handful of men who studied the Oral Law, and not T-rah.
By this I take it you mean their congregational rabbi? Most rabbonim are well versed in both Talmud and  , as well as the TNK. And surprisingly some are versed in the Renewed Covenant. Not that they believe in Yeshua, just for whatever reason they did further study.
Yes, and despite their erudition, they are in violation of T-rah. They have added and subtracted from the T-rah. They can do as they please, and their congregation is complicit in their errors, but the rabbonim might take some thought for those they teach, who are convinced their Rabbi's are better versed in T-rah than Moshe was, or the Judges that made decrees from the Mishkan/Temple.
Cherry picking out of context. Read the rest of the scriptures that the careful author skipped.
Deuteronomy 17:8-13 (CJB)
8 “If a case comes before you at your city gate which is too difficult for you to judge, concerning bloodshed, civil suit, personal injury or any other controversial issue; you are to get up, go to the place which Adonai your God will choose,
9 and appear before the cohanim, who are L’vi’im, and the judge in office at the time. Seek their opinion, and they will render a verdict for you.
10 You will then act according to what they have told you there in that place which Adonai will choose; you are to take care to act according to all their instructions.
11 In accordance with the T-rah they teach you, you are to carry out the judgment they render, not turning aside to the right or the left from the verdict they declare to you.
12 Anyone presumptuous enough not to pay attention to the cohen appointed there to serve Adonai your God or to the judge — that person must die. Thus you will exterminate such wickedness from Isra’el —
13 all the people will hear about it and be afraid to continue acting presumptuously.
1) 'from the place that the Lord will choose'. The Mishkan / Temple. Most Rabbinical decrees have been given when and where the Rabbi's chose, had no G-d given authority, and were not written down until after the Temple was destroyed in AD70.
Yes, in ancient Israel they wold have had either the Mishkan or Temple. Now they do not. And yes, the Oral was codified many years after the Temple was destroyed. But now they only have the Synagogue, the rabbi and a Beit Din to make rulings on halachic matters. These all have authority, and I’d say it is much closer to God given than many churches.
Since churches are pagan, and have only the vaguest ideas of some 8 or 9 of the 10 Commandments, of course they are. It does not make them
T-rah observant, just more T-rah observant than someone who never enters a church. Talmud observant Jews are probably far more observant than I am, but I was not raised as a Jew, for which I now thank G-d.
I, at least, know I am breaking nearly every commandment that applies to me, and do not assume that my halachah is protecting me from missing the mark. I am drowning in the ways of the nations with no protection but the Scriptures, and haRuach haKodesh.
And yes, I know that there are many Jews that are pious and devout, having been well trained from birth to walk in their halachah. That their halachah is in contravention to T-rah depends on the Rabbi their congregation follows. I can only hope that they haven't added on anything to T-rah, for their sakes.
2) 'according to the decision which they will pronounce to you, you shall do'. Which, when the judgements were handed down, were in regards to the T-rah already given, and written down, by Moshe.
God in His wisdom knew you can’t make a set of rules/laws/instructions that would cover every conceivable situation. This is why there is an Oral , or halacha…
And YHWH also gave over 1400 years of training in pounding T-rah into the Israelite's heads, but also gave something called COMMON SENSE! The minute you start to make the attempt to cover every little possibility that might strike someone, usually while judging someone else for something they do not like, you hand over the power to a handful of men without the authority of Elohim to make such decisions for them. The people then cannot even sin their own sins, but must sin those of those who are directing them!
Next you will say that the Oral Law is G-d ordained!
Judgements are given in regard to not keeping a specific mitzvot, not given to specify every Rabbi's desires as to how a mitzvot should be kept, or to please a member of the congregation who wishes to redefine what work is.
Members of any congregation cannot redefine halacha. A rabbi can advise on it because he is trained. A Beit Din can adjudicate on it. But individuals cannot just change it to fit their desires.
That last, by the way is one thing that plagues many Messianic congregations. Not so much Jewish ones.
Yes, but you are talking about halacha, not the underlying instruction under T-rah. The Judgements that were given under Temple authority applied to all Jews, not just to a certain group, who would them take it to heart, and pass it down to their children, even when it is in contravention to T-rah.
Halacha are societal rules about how to live under T-rah, according to the judgement of a group of people who broke T-rah by writing down their additions to T-rah. And then wrote about the additions. And the additions to the additions!
As for not redefinng halacha, what else are denominations? And you have thousands of denominations of Jews - just look at your basic synagogue. Yes, they have much in common - the Talmud. But they don't agree even on that.
Work is what you do to survive. Shabbat is easy, and should be, for those not involved in preparation for and in consequence of a congregational gathering.
The simple definition of proscribed work is any creative work; or any non-essential work. rabbi Shabbat. Food, though already repaired still must be served. But it is not always so clear. Caring for livestock however can present some problems not so easily categorized.
No where in T-rah is work described as creative, or non-essential. YHWH 'rested' from creation? NO. He finished it. He never began creating again.
You are sliding into traditions you do not even know the source of, or when they became in common use. They are convenient rules handed down by someone somewhen for G-d alone knows what reason. If all the work done in creating the Mishkan is work, then everything not done in creating the Mishkan is rest, including watering my garden on a hot day, and feeding my dog! Most of what is kept as halachah is make-work, and it lands on the shoulders of the unpaid workforce, those convenient wives and children. That they do it all with reverence, presuming G-d ordered it to be so, sorrows my heart.
Yeshua called it laying burdens on people. I prefer a lighter yoke, the T-rah, haRuach haKodesh, and some common sense.
Serving food? Why? Can it not simply be laid out for each person to take? Yes a small child needs help, but a man? Is ladling a serving onto a plate work, or a kindness that takes no effort? And if work is creative, how creative is ladling a serving on a plate? I live alone . . . if I serve myself, have I done some work?
Not caring for livestock? Where is the COMMON SENSE? You don't keep an animal from working so it can rest, and then deprive it of food and water!
In referencing Shabbat, there are directions given by Moshe in what to not do. Don't gather (whether manna or wood - aka food or fuel), Don't allow or cause your servants to do the same. Don't allow or cause your animals to do the same.
Don't gather goods on Shabbat to be sold the following day. By derivation, you don't buy or sell, as that would involve gathering / moving / transfering goods to be sold.
Don't light fires. Keep a holy convocation in your home. And when the offerings were to be made at the mishkan / temple, the Priests were exempted from the 'work' of gathering, preparing, and offering the required sacrifices.
Don't work, allow or cause your servants or animals to work. (If you don't know what work is, you don't work, and have never worked, whether at home or elsewhere)
What is so hard about not doing what you must do the other six days of the week to obtain what you need to provide for yourself?
I think the Jews do that, and very well.
So do I. But they add burdens to themselves, and make Shabbat a mad rush to prepare for, lest they contravene halachah nowhere specified in T-rah.
Did not Yeshua say his yoke was light? And to avoid the leaven of the Pharisees?
And in case you haven't noticed, no mention of Rabbi's proclaiming what is work and not work is ever mentioned in the T-rah . . . there were no Rabbi's at that time. Just judges, from amongst the cohanim at the Mishkan / Temple, acting out of common sense, and referring the difficult decisions up the chain of command.
There were no kings either. Things change.
Very true. Did they change for the better? Our king was YHWH . . . now look what we've got.
And the family traditions called Orah T-rah that somehow became written down after the Temple was destroyed in AD70?
It was never mentioned by Moshe. Don't you think that he would know?
There has always been an Oral , since Adam. It is quite likely that much of the written came from at least one oral tradition (my opinion).
Orah traditions are fine. Once you write it down It is in contravention of T-rah.
Deuteronomy 4:1-8 (CJB)
1 “Now, Isra’el, listen to the laws and rulings I am teaching you, in order to follow them, so that you will live; then you will go in and take possession of the land that Adonai, the God of your fathers, is giving you.
2 In order to obey the mitzvot of Adonai your God which I am giving you, do not add to what I am saying, and do not subtract from it.
3 You saw with your own eyes what Adonai did at Ba‘al-P‘or, that Adonai destroyed from among you all the men who followed Ba‘al-P‘or;
4 but you who stuck with Adonai your God are still alive today, every one of you.
5 (ii) Look, I have taught you laws and rulings, just as Adonai my God ordered me, so that you can behave accordingly in the land where you are going in order to take possession of it.
6 Therefore, observe them; and follow them; for then all peoples will see you as having wisdom and understanding. When they hear of all these laws, they will say, ‘This great nation is surely a wise and understanding people.’
7 For what great nation is there that has God as close to them as Adonai our God is, whenever we call on him?
8 What great nation is there that has laws and rulings as just as this entire T-rah which I am setting before you today?
And traditions? Every family has them. Enjoy them. Write about them. Exclude all those that don't play by your traditional rules.
Every culture does that.
Don't pretend they are T-rah.
That would be a good argument if you had stated it less aggressively; made more an effort to explain. Since is instruction, technically the Talmud would be instruction. The question we are asking is does it apply to us as Messianics.
Many sects do hold Talmud equal to or even above . They say if you don't know Talmud you can't understand . I tend to agree more with you and most Messianics. is our base. But this doesn't mean we can't learn from other writings. If this were not the case, then why do we need the other 61 books?
I am sorry you think that a statement must be made meekly and in detail to be accurate. As for the other 61 books of the Tanakh and the Apostolic Writings, there is a great deal of tradition within them.
There is also a great deal of the 1st century culture that we have no access to, no matter the many histories and archeological findings we are given.
Unfortunately, what is taught within Judaism is no where near it either.
What I do not know may be true, but what is written in the Scriptures, I can try to perform knowing it is true, even if I do it very simply. I can use the various histories to inform my thinking, and survey what is cultural within the Talmud, but I cannot allow it to affect my behavior.
Yes, the world has changed in the last two millenia, but right and wrong have not, anymore than the commonsense application of what I know of
T-rah.
Now, all I have to do is learn to apply it to my life.
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Post by alon on Sept 14, 2024 17:55:27 GMT -8
Questor, I am not sure if you realize it, but you are coming across angry and confrontational. Your arguments are very emotional. You might want to take some time, edit them to remove the repetition and wild baseless claims.
Understand, I am NOT saying we should accept his thesis at face value. I am NOT saying we should keep the 613 mitzvoth. I am saying if we refuse, we should be clear in our thinking. And it never hurts to look at how the other guy thinks. What does hurt is angering a lot of people who I admire and respect. We may not agree on everything, but still they are chosen of God!
I will give just a few examples from your post:
I think they know that. I mean, if a bunch of Gentiles know it … . Why do you infer they can’t figure this out in @3500 yrs!
And what then of Messianic rabbonim, pastors, teachers? What were the Jews to do in the Babylonian diaspora when they had no Temple and not enough priests? And the Roman diaspora is far worse!
On that I can agree. But you could have stated it better.
It was covered in his essay that the finer points required an authority to define them. This is what the Oral Torah should do- without changing or circumventing Torah it is flexible so that things that Torah cannot cover may be dealt with. Ex: Shabbat is sundown to sundown on the 7th day. But say someone is converted at a polar region. Those days are LONG- really long the closer you get to the Poles. So more likely you’d give the proselyte an alarm clock and a calendar and wish him luck.That is how halacha could be adjusted to meet the needs of specific cases.
This is the kind of understanding we can get from Jewish writings. If therre are specific cases you know of where they are against Torah that should be stated plainly and without rancor.
While I can mostly agree with you here, you make an error concerning their authority. This is the point. Their rabbis do have authority. They are also well trained and studied. And I’d liken their halacha to the doctrines of church denominations; their Beit Din to boards or whatever ruling bodies they have. Now I am NOT saying any of them are all right or all wrong. That’s not the point. But they do keep their congregations from blowing like leaves, any way the wind blows. This can be a problem with individuals trying t do this on their own.
Unfortunately too many Messianics must do it exactly that way. And too many Messianic congregations are in the same boat. The idea here is we can look at this artical one of several ways:
1, The principal is right and we somehow draw up a list (make or borrow) of principles to use in making our own halachic rulings
2. We find and follow a beit din we can trust
3. Or the worst way, we just do as we please
4. He is right and we follow the list of 613 mitzvoth
5. And we could go on …
And I am going to say right up front, the statement “The Ruach will guide me” is almost always code for “I’ll just do what I please.” Few people are guided that close by the Ruach, because few men can turn themselves over that completely to God. We may think we can, or even do. But we delude ourselves. That takes a special man, called for the job by The Almighty.
Blanket statements such as this are wrong. I have a book on the 613 mitzvoth. And while I disagree with many of their interpretations, all are Torah based. And there is much to learn studying what these ancient, godly men wrote. One can entertain the thoughts of others, giving them due consideration but without necessarily believing or adopting them.
That is the purpose in having some kind of direction; some kind of halacha. It is incongruous to berate them for following a strict halachic list while saying you break every commandment. Yeshua did not say “If you love me feel bad about continually breaking my commandments.” He said:
“If ye love me, keep my commandments.” John 1415
I know, you have a problem in this regard. But I think God knows that too, and His grace is sufficient as long as you are tryig. And I think you are. However this comes across as if you are not; you're just getting comfortable in your sin. Again, I know this not to be the case. But if we did not have some history here that is what I'd think in reading this.
Common sense is not universally common. That is called “leaning to thine own understanding.”
And no, you do not have to hand over power to anyone. If you do not trust their judgements or motives then you should not be following them. Our problem in MJ is there are so few congregations, and fewer qualified leaders. So then the problem becomes how do we address this? To answer that is beyond the scope of this discussion, and a topic all its own. If you wish, open a thread on it and we’ll discuss it there.
A*b*s*o*l*u*t*e*l*y! There must be some kind of ruling system for the minutia of how we keep Torah! Otherwise we end up just knowing everything we do breaks Torah. There has been an Oral Torah in place since Adam. God’s instructions to Adam in caring for the Garden would have been an Oral Torah. And every shaliach tzibur (apostle) sent out had the authority to “bind and loose.” That is code for making halacha. They made an Oral Torah. These were not recorded because they were for specific congregations in different places and circumstances. But they had that authority because they were praying men who had been trained by the Master.
You assume these rabbonim are acting on their own desires. But you cannot know this. On their own understanding and training, yes. On prejudices handed down by 2000 yrs of destruction and misery at the hands of believers in Jesus; of betrayal and abandonment. They are human, and so this does play a part. But in all this they have held to their understanding of Torah. There must be something good that got them this far.
Well, those instructions would themselves be halachic.
I agree. However this does not mean I cannot entertain other ideas. As I said, I want the truth, and the truth will stand up to scrutiny.
You seem to lay things out in your mind as extremes, which you can easily destroy- but only in your mind. (This is a very human trait). Those thoughts do not withstand open scrutiny. Again, this is why we do need some direction, even if that is just another person you can trust to discuss it with.
That should be enough, as I am not trying to pile it on. I am not trying to tear into you, just showing how you could moderate your tone and improve your arguments (an argument being any statement that can be proven true or false- not tearing out each others throats). I’ve said many times here we are not beholding to these later rabbinical rulings. But again, I am willing to pass my beliefs through the fire when I see a compelling argument that runs contrary to them. And you can learn a lot from those mitzvoth, even if not all right (in our understanding). If I cannot defend my faith, it is not very strong.
I was going to wait to respond to his essay to see if anyone else wanted to speak (and they still can). But I’ll go ahead and put it up as an example of (I hope) a well thought out and succinct response.
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Post by alon on Sept 14, 2024 18:01:39 GMT -8
My Rebutal:
The Hebrew Bible often uses repetition to add emphasis. However this is a particular kind of repetition- a chiasm:
Deuteronomy 17:10-11
a) Then you shall do according to what they declare to you from that place that the Lord will choose
``b) And you shall be careful to do according to all that they direct you.
``B’) According to the instructions that they give you, and according to the decision which they pronounce to you, you shall do.
A’) You shall not turn aside from the verdict that they declare to you, either to the right hand or to the left.
The chiastic structure of this statement ties the ideas solidly together. There is no new instruction with new meaning. It is simply putting a HUGE exclamation point on this instruction, making it a command.
Furthermore, if one reads the entire chapter you see the topic does not change. It is a criminal court before and after, and the purpose is to “purge the evil from Israel” (v.12).
As for Mark 7:7 & Matthew 15:9, these talk about those doctrines which actually go against Torah. Yeshua often spoke against these, as well as the fact by the 1st century CE people were already being overloaded with rulings that were meant to control their lives. In the coming diaspora it was probably necessary to do this (and they did). But many of these contradict Torah; things like the requirement to undergo a full series of man made conversion rituals before one could be “saved.” This goes against over 4000 yrs of God’s salvation history, the 66 book Bible (as well of course as just the TNK).
And if ‘Torah’ is correctly rendered ‘instruction’ rather than ‘verdict’ it still applies only to this ruling; not to every word they say or every ruling they make going forward. That this interpretation saved the Jews as a people for 2000 yrs of dispersion may or may not have some truth to it. (I believe it does.) However this does not prove R Wolicki’s contention v. 11 is a separate lesson in obedience, just that their (false) belief had very fortuitous consequences. The evidence says it is not.
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Post by Questor on Sept 21, 2024 15:44:23 GMT -8
Post by alon on Sep 14, 2024 at 9:55pm Questor, I am not sure if you realize it, but you are coming across angry and confrontational. Your arguments are very emotional. You might want to take some time, edit them to remove the repetition and wild baseless claims.
Understand, I am NOT saying we should accept his thesis at face value. I am NOT saying we should keep the 613 mitzvoth. I am saying if we refuse, we should be clear in our thinking. And it never hurts to look at how the other guy thinks. What does hurt is angering a lot of people who I admire and respect. We may not agree on everything, but still they are chosen of God I have no intent to hurt anyone by speaking out quite plainly, much less hurt those who are related to me. Or is being a Messianic Jew somehow not Jewish in a Messianic Gentile’s eyes, as it is in a Rabbinic Jew’s eyes?
As for being emotional in my arguments, I do not know how to state how I feel un-emotionally when it comes to T-rah. T-rah either is or is not the bedrock on our beliefs as Messianics, Jewish or Gentile. Neither Yeshua nor any of his talmudim taught from anything but the Tanakh, and the Moedim alone describe Yeshua’s effect on the world, from his death to his return in glory.
So when I hear a statement like R. Wolicki’s that rabbinic rulings are equivalent to those handed down by the Sanhedrin in Temple times I see a cape being waved before a bull who was peacefully grazing, and before said cape being waved, ready to ignore anything but the grass.
I will give just a few examples from your post: Not every law so stated is for every person. When men start keeping niddah you have the woke wackos we have running rampant in our society.
I think they know that. I mean, if a bunch of Gentiles know it … . Why do you infer they can’t figure this out in @3500 yrs!Gosh! Were you writing only to Jews? Most Gentiles do not know this. Ask one. Most are not even aware of the 613 commandments claimed to be in T-rah. Most Jews are not even aware that the first mention of them was in the 3rd Century by R. Simlai. I haven’t personally counted the various positive and negative ways of looking at every mitzvot, but I don’t mind the number claimed. As for what is a mitzvot, well, that’s another can of worms.
However, no Rabbi/Teacher is entitled, or ever was, to take the place of the Leviim/Cohanim that sat in judgement over the breaking of the T-rah. Congregational leaders have been allowed to, as each scattered group sat at the feet of their Rabbi, but that does not make it legitimate. Just convenient for the group, who seem to have replaced the T-rah with the Talmud.
And what then of Messianic rabbonim, pastors, teachers? What were the Jews to do in the Babylonian diaspora when they had no Temple and not enough priests? And the Roman diaspora is far worse!
I would have expected them to do what they did, but have the sense to state that they were speaking in the interim, and that when a Sanhedrin again formed, all the decrees would be reviewed. It would certainly have kept them extremely cautious in what they said and did, and kept future decrees from burdening the people as so aptly noted by Yeshua. You don’t claim to speak for YHWH without him taking notice.
Is there wisdom in the Talmud? Certainly. There is in any discussion of community adherance to community standards. But it does not make it T-rah observant.On that I can agree. But you could have stated it better. Then please, restate it. Nice rationalization for Rabbinical decrees. Did Israel not already know what the Mitzvot were? Could they not have simply followed T-rah? We're they not supposed to?
It was covered in his essay that the finer points required an authority to define them. This is what the Oral should do- without changing or circumventing it is flexible so that things that cannot cover may be dealt with. Ex: Shabbat is sundown to sundown on the 7th day. But say someone is converted at a polar region. Those days are LONG- really long the closer you get to the Poles. So more likely you’d give the proselyte an alarm clock and a calendar and wish him luck.That is how halacha could be adjusted to meet the needs of specific cases.
This is the kind of understanding we can get from Jewish writings. If therre are specific cases you know of where they are against that should be stated plainly and without rancor. There was the need for an authority . . . an authorized authority . . . to define just how to handle all those little details that mounted up. R.Wolicki said so himself, and then ignored having said it. Of course. Unfortunately, they are leading people away from T-rah by following any rabbinic decision 'as if it were equivalent or greater than T-rah', who have no authority granted since AD70. Did they need to make decisions to protect their congregations within the confines of the nations? Certainly. It was when they wrote it down, and made it equivalent to or greater than T-rah that they began their own walk away from the Judaism they had come from.While I can mostly agree with you here, you make an error concerning their authority. This is the point. Their rabbis do have authority. They are also well trained and studied. And I’d liken their halacha to the doctrines of church denominations; their Beit Din to boards or whatever ruling bodies they have. Now I am NOT saying any of them are all right or all wrong. That’s not the point. But they do keep their congregations from blowing like leaves, any way the wind blows. This can be a problem with individuals trying t do this on their own. No G-d given authority was in evidence. The rabbonim are certainly well trained, but they all ignore the crucial point that Moshe laid down.
DO NOT ADD OR SUBTRACT FROM THE T-RAH.
Any local rabbi can advise what is best for the time. They have no authority to make it binding, and cumulative, which is what happened.
Unfortunately too many Messianics must do it exactly that way. And too many Messianic congregations are in the same boat. The idea here is we can look at this artical one of several ways: 1, The principal is right and we somehow draw up a list (make or borrow) of principles to use in making our own halachic rulings 2. We find and follow a beit din we can trust 3. Or the worst way, we just do as we please 4. He is right and we follow the list of 613 mitzvoth 5. And we could go on … And I am going to say right up front, the statement “The Ruach will guide me” is almost always code for “I’ll just do what I please.” Few people are guided that close by the Ruach, because few men can turn themselves over that completely to God. We may think we can, or even do. But we delude ourselves. That takes a special man, called for the job by The Almighty. Yeshua.Yes, and despite their erudition, they are in violation of T-rah. They have added and subtracted from the T-rah. They can do as they please, and their congregation is complicit in their errors, but the rabbonim might take some thought for those they teach, who are convinced their Rabbi's are better versed in than Moshe was, or the Judges that made decrees from the Mishkan/Temple. Blanket statements such as this are wrong. I have a book on the 613 mitzvoth. And while I disagree with many of their interpretations, all are based. And there is much to learn studying what these ancient, godly men wrote. One can entertain the thoughts of others, giving them due consideration but without necessarily believing or adopting them. I entertain their thoughts, and being neither a scholar, nor a person of standing within the Rabbinic communities, hand them over to G-d, and pray that their eyes will be opened to what is in the Tanakh, and set aside all the writings that although of historical interest, are in contravention of what G-d decreed.I, at least, know I am breaking nearly every commandment that applies to me, and do not assume that my halachah is protecting me from missing the mark. I am drowning in the ways of the nations with no protection but the Scriptures, and haRuach haKodesh.That is the purpose in having some kind of direction; some kind of halacha. It is incongruous to berate them for following a strict halachic list while saying you break every commandment. Yeshua did not say “If you love me feel bad about continually breaking my commandments.” He said: “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” John 1415 I know, you have a problem in this regard. But I think God knows that too, and His grace is sufficient as long as you are trying. And I think you are. However this comes across as if you are not; you're just getting comfortable in your sin. Again, I know this not to be the case. But if we did not have some history here that is what I'd think in reading this. So glad to hear you keep all those mitzvot that apply to you blamelessly. I will continue to attempt to do the same, because the sin I find all around me is a painful thing.
And YHWH also gave over 1400 years of training in pounding T-rah into the Israelite's heads, but also gave something called COMMON SENSE! The minute you start to make the attempt to cover every little possibility that might strike someone, usually while judging someone else for something they do not like, you hand over the power to a handful of men without the authority of Elohim to make such decisions for them. The people then cannot even sin their own sins, but must sin those of those who are directing them!
Common sense is not universally common. That is called “leaning to thine own understanding.” I find that common sense works very well when laid upon centuries of halachah taught from childhood. Jews do as well as they do because of this. I always thought that was why we were supposed to teach our children, and speak of what we were to do, getting up, and lying down, going and coming. I was not raised that way, and have the constant reminders from haRuach of when I am blowing it, which to me, seems a constant thing, which can then be reviewed, by reading the T-rah.I don’t lean to my own understanding by choosing what is easy and convenient. I feel a check in my spirit, and then review what I am doing wrong, and try to correct it. I may not do it well, but I was not raised either with either Christian or Jewish understanding. I was raised as a blank sheet of paper, given a pencil, a lot of books, and a big eraser. And yet, I have little trouble feeling that light tap on the shoulder that tells me I need to recheck my direction.And no, you do not have to hand over power to anyone. If you do not trust their judgements or motives then you should not be following them. Our problem in MJ is there are so few congregations, and fewer qualified leaders. So then the problem becomes how do we address this? To answer that is beyond the scope of this discussion, and a topic all its own. If you wish, open a thread on it and we’ll discuss it there. I, like all too many people these days, listen to many people, and hear that odd sound in my mind that says, not exactly, which then sends me seeking for more information.
As for discussing a better way, I am learned enough NOT to do so. I don’t know enough.
Next you will say that the Oral Law is G-d ordained!A*b*s*o*l*u*t*e*l*y! There must be some kind of ruling system for the minutia of how we keep ! Otherwise we end up just knowing everything we do breaks . There has been an Oral in place since Adam. God’s instructions to Adam in caring for the Garden would have been an Oral . And every shaliach tzibur (apostle) sent out had the authority to “bind and loose.” That is code for making halacha. They made an Oral . These were not recorded because they were for specific congregations in different places and circumstances. But they had that authority because they were praying men who had been trained by the Master. Which is why you have a welter of ideas of how to walk in a way that was written down, and meant to be kept.
As for each shaliach tzibur, if they were all giving authority to ‘bind and loose’, well, then Yeshua himself loosed the chaos we have now upon us. The only binding we have is in Acts 15, and it was given to Shimon.
14“Shim‛on has declared how Elohim first visited the nations to take out of them a people for His Name.
15“And the words of the prophets agree with this, as it has been written:
16‘After this I shall return and rebuild the Booth of Dawiḏ which has fallen down. And I shall rebuild its ruins, and I shall set it up,
17so that the remnant of mankind shall seek יהוה, even all the nations on whom My Name has been called, says יהוה who is doing all this,’
18who has made this known from of old. Amos 9:11–12
19“Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the nations who are turning to Elohim,
20but that we write to them to abstain from the defilements of idols, and from whoring, and from what is strangled, and from blood.
21“For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him—being read in the congregations every Sabbath.”
22Then it seemed good to the emissaries and elders, with all the assembly, to send chosen men from among them to Antioch with Sha’ul and Barnaḇa: Yehuḏah being called Barsabba, and Silas, leading men among the brothers,
23having written by their hand this: The emissaries and the elders and the brothers, To the brothers who are of the nations in Antioch, and Suria, and Kilikia: Greetings.
24Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your lives, to whom we gave no command—
25it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnaḇa and Sha’ul,
26men who have given up their lives for the Name of our Master יהושׁע Messiah.
27We have therefore sent Yehuḏah and Silas, who are also confirming this by word of mouth.
28For it seemed good to the Set-apart Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessities:
29that you abstain from what is offered to idols, and blood, and what is strangled, and whoring. If you keep yourselves from these, you shall do well. Be strong! Judgements are given in regard to not keeping a specific mitzvot, not given to specify every Rabbi's desires as to how a mitzvot should be kept, or to please a member of the congregation who wishes to redefine what work is.You assume these rabbonim are acting on their own desires. But you cannot know this. On their own understanding and training, yes. On prejudices handed down by 2000 yrs of destruction and misery at the hands of believers in Jesus; of betrayal and abandonment. They are human, and so this does play a part. But in all this they have held to their understanding of . There must be something good that got them this far. I assume that rabbonim act on their own understanding and training . . . and have to work with the members of their congregation, who have the ability to pressure their rabbi. Rabbonim are not encased in a shield against the pressures of what is going on around them. They bend when they must, or lose their power to keep some semblance of rationality in the congregation. They are trying to keep their people together, and heading in the direction they see as the right way to go. They haven’t done as bad a job as they might have, which I attribute, not to the rabbonim, but to G-d.
It was always the point of Cohanim being judges over a case. They might be as venal as the next guy, and often were, but the greater the problem being considered, the more of them were involved, and the more cautious the actions taken.Yes, but you are talking about halacha, not the underlying instruction under T-rah. The Judgements that were given under Temple authority applied to all Jews, not just to a certain group, who would them take it to heart, and pass it down to their children, even when it is in contravention to T-rah.Well, those instructions would themselves be halachic. Yep, but halachah that applied to their own congregation alone. Once written down and circulated, T-rah seems to have fallen by the wayside, and Talmud is all.
Yeshua called it laying burdens on people. I prefer a lighter yoke, the T-rah, haRuach haKodesh, and some common sense.I agree. However this does not mean I cannot entertain other ideas. As I said, I want the truth, and the truth will stand up to scrutiny. You seem to lay things out in your mind as extremes, which you can easily destroy- but only in your mind. (This is a very human trait). Those thoughts do not withstand open scrutiny. Again, this is why we do need some direction, even if that is just another person you can trust to discuss it with. I talk to many people, and I find a real problem. Those that will talk about Yeshua all do so from a Christian bias, being brought up in one of many denominations, and find a problem that how things look from a Jewish perspective runs smash into their mindset as Christians. And Jews, well, there are few Messianic Orthodox Jews who are already not up to their eyeballs in the confused Jews who reverence Yeshua, and cannot take on another talmid, particularly as I am as a child in their eyes, and needing much milk.
That should be enough, as I am not trying to pile it on. I am not trying to tear into you, just showing how you could moderate your tone and improve your arguments (an argument being any statement that can be proven true or false- not tearing out each others throats). I’ve said many times here we are not beholding to these later rabbinical rulings. But again, I am willing to pass my beliefs through the fire when I see a compelling argument that runs contrary to them. And you can learn a lot from those mitzvoth, even if not all right (in our understanding). If I cannot defend my faith, it is not very strong. I was going to wait to respond to his essay to see if anyone else wanted to speak (and they still can). But I’ll go ahead and put it up as an example of (I hope) a well thought out and succinct response. ‘an argument being any statement that can be proven true or false- not tearing out each others throats’ Well, I wasn’t aware of doing it, but I will try not to offend in future.
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Post by alon on Sept 22, 2024 4:56:40 GMT -8
The main thing is watch the baseless assumptions, and tone it down a bit.
An Oral tradition/halacha- its purpose is to make Torah workable for everyone. There are times when mitzvoth will conflict. The ox in the ditch on Shabbat is a good example. The oral tradition makes it clear- we save the ox. Traveling on Shabbat is another. It was halacha in ancient times not to travel outside ones town. But today all the MJ qahalot here are in rural areas. So if no one travels, there would be no Messianic congregations. So halacha is pretty universal in this region- we drive however far we must. Halacha may also cover things like dress.
*sorry, my comp was acting up*
Due to climate, rural v in town, and many other factors the minutiae of how we keep Torah can varry greatly. Torah itself cannot be changed. But halachic rulings can change to make Torah workable. But here's the problem; both Jews and now Meshiachim have spread all over, and so the serve in areas where everything from day/night hours to local customs can vary in the extreme. Your priests could never have envisioned all these things. So either a local rabbi or if one is in a large organization a beit din would make halachic rulings to deal with these variations. In this way these decisions are made by prayerful, studious men, not just left to the whims of the individual. It also provides for group cohesion, very similar to what our thesis purports to have kept Judaism cohesive for 2000 yrs.
We as Meshiechi are often faced with decisions that leave us worried and wringing our hands. An Oral Torah addresses these problems.
So an oral tradition- traditions and halachic rulings is not necessarily a bad thing. You are wise to be ever vigilant, since the entire Messianic community is still learning. But overall it is really a very good thing.
Dan
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