Sincere question

[Eliana]

My sister in law who is a Christian showed me this website and I had a laugh, but I registered to ask a sincere question.

Has any authentic Jew ever actually come here and converted to Christianity? Your website's rules essentially forbid any form of contradiction, so what Jew is ever going to actually stop here to ask anything? Is it even run by Jews?


In a nutshell:

Website: "We believe in Jesus and we identify as Jewish!"

Orthodox Jew (like me): "Okay let's debate. I'm open minded."

Website: "NO! Debate is against the rules!"

Orthodox Jew: "Jews who don't like debating? Must not have been Jewish very long!"

Regardless, G-d bless your hearts and such.

[alon]

Jul 15, 2024 2:52:13 GMT -8 Eliana said:

My sister in law who is a Christian showed me this website and I had a laugh, but I registered to ask a sincere question.

Has any authentic Jew ever actually come here and converted to Christianity? Your website's rules essentially forbid any form of contradiction, so what Jew is ever going to actually stop here to ask anything? Is it even run by Jews?


In a nutshell:

Website: "We believe in Jesus and we identify as Jewish!"

Orthodox Jew (like me): "Okay let's debate. I'm open minded."

Website: "NO! Debate is against the rules!"

Orthodox Jew: "Jews who don't like debating? Must not have been Jewish very long!"

Regardless, G-d bless your hearts and such.

Fair enough. Has any Jew ever come here and converted? I don't know. I do know several people who were born and raised Jewish who are now Messianic; some I met the few times I've worshiped with the parent synagogue. And my wife was raised Jewish, though she converted before we met and still identifies as Christian. Like you she can't get past the "Jewish" label. But her beliefs align more with Messianism than Christianity.

It is called "MESSIANIC JUDAISM" because we try as much as possible to get back to the beliefs of the 1st cen CE Jewish sect of the Notsarim. We also believe nothing in the Bible has ever been done away with, and Torah is our base. Read correctly nothing in our entire 66 book Bible contradicts anything that came before it; especially Torah. We also believe God never revokes a calling, therefore the Jewish people are still the Chosen People.

Contemporary Messianic Judaism was founded by Jews who believe in Yeshua as Ha'Moshiach but wished to retain their identity as Jews, not becoming Christian. I am a Torah observant Gentile believer in Messianic Judaism. This was prophesied (Isaiah 9:2, 42:1, and several others). But we absolutely repudiate Replacement Theology. Gentiles must join with Jews. To say a Jew must join with Gentiles to believe Messiah has come is wrong. 

Our rules say this is a safe place to learn about Messianic Judaism. To that end we do not allow teaching of other doctrines. However, as with you we do allow questions, even when given as a challenge. We've had Orthodox Jews, Muslims, Christians, and others (some of which were a bit off). We've also had Ebionites and others claiming to be Messianic, but who are not. We treat all the same. Ask a serious question, we'll answer it. Teach and I have to step in and say stop. Allowing anyone to teach any thing would create confusion, and our God is a God of order, not chaos.

So if you have questions, even challenging ones go ahead and ask. And we do allow, even encourage discussion. 

[Eliana]

Fair enough. Has any Jew ever come here and converted? I don't know. I do know several people who were born and raised Jewish who are now Messianic; some I met the few times I've worshiped with the parent synagogue. And my wife was raised Jewish, though she converted before we met and still identifies as Christian. Like you she can't get past the "Jewish" label. But her beliefs align more with Messianism than Christianity.

It is called "MESSIANIC JUDAISM" because we try as much as possible to get back to the beliefs of the 1st cen CE Jewish sect of the Notsarim. We also believe nothing in the Bible has ever been done away with, and is our base. Read correctly nothing in our entire 66 book Bible contradicts anything that came before it; especially . We also believe God never revokes a calling, therefore the Jewish people are still the Chosen People.

Contemporary Messianic Judaism was founded by Jews who believe in Yeshua as Ha'Moshiach but wished to retain their identity as Jews, not becoming Christian. I am a observant Gentile believer in Messianic Judaism. This was prophesied (Isaiah 9:2, 42:1, and several others). But we absolutely repudiate Replacement Theology. Gentiles must join with Jews. To say a Jew must join with Gentiles to believe Messiah has come is wrong. 

Our rules say this is a safe place to learn about Messianic Judaism. To that end we do not allow teaching of other doctrines. However, as with you we do allow questions, even when given as a challenge. We've had Orthodox Jews, Muslims, Christians, and others (some of which were a bit off). We've also had Ebionites and others claiming to be Messianic, but who are not. We treat all the same. Ask a serious question, we'll answer it. Teach and I have to step in and say stop. Allowing anyone to teach any thing would create confusion, and our God is a God of order, not chaos.

So if you have questions, even challenging ones go ahead and ask. And we do allow, even encourage discussion. 

"We don't allow teaching" is a slippery term that has no definition of what constitutes as such. Usually these types of rules are used to shut people down. My experience with evangelicals has taught me they are thin skinned, easily angered and cannot justify their theological positions. These boards pretend to be missionary but are really just social clubs.

I do not like messianic "Jews" or "Jews" for Jesus types because of their attacks on the Jewish community and deceptive behaviour. However, I always say I am a live and let live kind of girl and I wouldn't go around trying to change anyone's mind or run some sort of counter-missionary work either. I also suspect few people here are actually Jewish by birth or come from Orthodox backgrounds, most Messianic "Jews' are non-Jews who converted. 

Regardless, I was just curious.

[alon]

Jul 15, 2024 15:30:12 GMT -8 Eliana said:

"We don't allow teaching" is a slippery term that has no definition of what constitutes as such. Usually these types of rules are used to shut people down. 

Well, if you read some of the threads here I think you'll find I have been more than fair. But yes, when it becomes necessary for whatever reason I will step in as moderator. 

You are correct in that the term is by its nature a bit nebulous. But usually when I've stepped in the infraction is clear. 

My experience with evangelicals has taught me they are thin skinned, easily angered and cannot justify their theological positions.

I've argued for my beliefs with evangelical pastors with Masters degrees; and many with no theological training other than church attendance. Some get angry, others will eventually disengage. But you are correct, they cannot justify their theological positions. Again, read the posts here and you will see this is evident in our discussions. 

These boards pretend to be missionary but are really just social clubs.

We never claimed to be "missionary." Just because you've experienced other boards like that does not mean you can place that label on us. We do offer spiritual support to each other when necessary. But mostly if you look honestly at us you'll see we seriously look into scripture and try to come to a deeper understanding.

I do not like messianic "Jews" or "Jews" for Jesus types because of their attacks on the Jewish community and deceptive behaviour.

Here you are absolutely wrong. We, like most Messianic believers do not deceive, nor do we attack Jews. In fact, that would get someone banned here. We will look into Jewish writings and discuss bothe any truths and, if we find anything wrong we discuss that. But always respectfully. We also clear up misunderstandings with Christian friends when (for example) they see things like midrashim and wonder what it's about. Messianics tend to support Israel and come against attacks on Jews here at home. Right now all my "disposable" income goes to Israeli relief, and I have marched against radical Islamic anti-Semitic attacks. I have stood up against Jewish hatred and slurs in person as well. Others I know have done as much and more. Our congregation has had many people who went to Israel to help.

Since the contemporary Messianic movement started there has been a shift in Evangelical churches views on Jews, Judaism as a whole, and Israel. We've had a positive effect on Christianity, especially the Evangelicals. So I fail to see how anyone could think we hate the Jews.

As far as your liking Messianic Judaism or me in particular, I will tell you what I've told others before you: you don't have to like or respect me. But I do like and respect the Jewish people, including you. Why? God chose you; end of discussion.

However, I always say I am a live and let live kind of girl and I wouldn't go around trying to change anyone's mind or run some sort of counter-missionary work either.

We do not try to tell anyone what to believe either. Nor do we evangelize or proselytize. We will answer questions when asked. But the primary purpose for this forum is to talk about Messianic Judaism; accurate meanings in scripture and/or issues relative to MJ. That's it. If someone from another faith comes here to ask questions or learn about us, fine. We'll talk. But there is no way I can force anyone to stay; nor would I if I could.

 I also suspect few people here are actually Jewish by birth or come from Orthodox backgrounds, most Messianic "Jews' are non-Jews who converted.

Very few here, and none still active. Can't say about the lurkers. And very few in the congregations I've visited. However there are large congregations in larger cities which are entirely Jewish by birth. You run into some of them at conferences from time to time. But you'd be correct most of the movement is Gentiles who've converted to MJ (not to be confused with the formal conversion of any mainstream Jewish sect). But when we accept the truth and take on Torah we believe it is we as Gentiles who must convert. A Jew does not need to convert; they simply change sects.

Regardless, I was just curious.

Not a problem. Come back any time. I hope I've cleared up some of your misconceptions about us.

[Eliana]

Jul 15, 2024 22:13:32 GMT -8 alon said:

Jul 15, 2024 15:30:12 GMT -8 Eliana said:

"We don't allow teaching" is a slippery term that has no definition of what constitutes as such. Usually these types of rules are used to shut people down. 

Well, if you read some of the threads here I think you'll find I have been more than fair. But yes, when it becomes necessary for whatever reason I will step in as moderator. 

You are correct in that the term is by its nature a bit nebulous. But usually when I've stepped in the infraction is clear. 

My experience with evangelicals has taught me they are thin skinned, easily angered and cannot justify their theological positions.

I've argued for my beliefs with evangelical pastors with Masters degrees; and many with no theological training other than church attendance. Some get angry, others will eventually disengage. But you are correct, they cannot justify their theological positions. Again, read the posts here and you will see this is evident in our discussions. 

These boards pretend to be missionary but are really just social clubs.

We never claimed to be "missionary." Just because you've experienced other boards like that does not mean you can place that label on us. We do offer spiritual support to each other when necessary. But mostly if you look honestly at us you'll see we seriously look into scripture and try to come to a deeper understanding.

I do not like messianic "Jews" or "Jews" for Jesus types because of their attacks on the Jewish community and deceptive behaviour.

Here you are absolutely wrong. We, like most Messianic believers do not deceive, nor do we attack Jews. In fact, that would get someone banned here. We will look into Jewish writings and discuss bothe any truths and, if we find anything wrong we discuss that. But always respectfully. We also clear up misunderstandings with Christian friends when (for example) they see things like midrashim and wonder what it's about. Messianics tend to support Israel and come against attacks on Jews here at home. Right now all my "disposable" income goes to Israeli relief, and I have marched against radical Islamic anti-Semitic attacks. I have stood up against Jewish hatred and slurs in person as well. Others I know have done as much and more. Our congregation has had many people who went to Israel to help.

Since the contemporary Messianic movement started there has been a shift in Evangelical churches views on Jews, Judaism as a whole, and Israel. We've had a positive effect on Christianity, especially the Evangelicals. So I fail to see how anyone could think we hate the Jews.

As far as your liking Messianic Judaism or me in particular, I will tell you what I've told others before you: you don't have to like or respect me. But I do like and respect the Jewish people, including you. Why? God chose you; end of discussion.

However, I always say I am a live and let live kind of girl and I wouldn't go around trying to change anyone's mind or run some sort of counter-missionary work either.

We do not try to tell anyone what to believe either. Nor do we evangelize or proselytize. We will answer questions when asked. But the primary purpose for this forum is to talk about Messianic Judaism; accurate meanings in scripture and/or issues relative to MJ. That's it. If someone from another faith comes here to ask questions or learn about us, fine. We'll talk. But there is no way I can force anyone to stay; nor would I if I could.

 I also suspect few people here are actually Jewish by birth or come from Orthodox backgrounds, most Messianic "Jews' are non-Jews who converted.

Very few here, and none still active. Can't say about the lurkers. And very few in the congregations I've visited. However there are large congregations in larger cities which are entirely Jewish by birth. You run into some of them at conferences from time to time. But you'd be correct most of the movement is Gentiles who've converted to MJ (not to be confused with the formal conversion of any mainstream Jewish sect). But when we accept the truth and take on we believe it is we as Gentiles who must convert. A Jew does not need to convert; they simply change sects.

Regardless, I was just curious.

Not a problem. Come back any time. I hope I've cleared up some of your misconceptions about us.

I don't have any misconceptions. You've admitted most people here aren't even Jewish, which I suspected. I consider "Jews" for Jesus, Messianic "Jews" and Christian Zionists to be antisemitic and dishonest, namely is presenting yourselves as Judaism when you are a Christian denomination. No branch of Judaism, not even the reformed Jews who are the most liberal Jews in the universe, accepts Messianics as Jewish. Christianity is so theologically at odds that to say a Jew who is converting is merely changing sects is just patently untrue. As an Orthodox Jew myself we actually consider even reformed or conservative Jews as apostate by the way, so when even they reject Messianics that says something. I have personally been on the receiving end of nasty and anti-Jewish attacks by so called Jews for Jesus and their ilk, especially in Israel. Their supposedly pro-Jewish beliefs quickly crumble when we tell them we aren't interested or point out the inconsistencies of Christianity with Judaism.

Like I said I'm not here to make trouble I just wanted an answer to my question, and I'm not the type to hit and run on a forum so I respond just out of courtesy.

Cheers.

[alon]

Jul 17, 2024 5:57:52 GMT -8 Eliana said:

I don't have any misconceptions. You've admitted most people here aren't even Jewish, which I suspected. I consider "Jews" for Jesus, Messianic "Jews" and Christian Zionists to be antisemitic and dishonest, namely is presenting yourselves as Judaism when you are a Christian denomination. No branch of Judaism, not even the reformed Jews who are the most liberal Jews in the universe, accepts Messianics as Jewish. Christianity is so theologically at odds that to say a Jew who is converting is merely changing sects is just patently untrue. As an Orthodox Jew myself we actually consider even reformed or conservative Jews as apostate by the way, so when even they reject Messianics that says something. I have personally been on the receiving end of nasty and anti-Jewish attacks by so called Jews for Jesus and their ilk, especially in Israel. Their supposedly pro-Jewish beliefs quickly crumble when we tell them we aren't interested or point out the inconsistencies of Christianity with Judaism.

Like I said I'm not here to make trouble I just wanted an answer to my question, and I'm not the type to hit and run on a forum so I respond just out of courtesy.

Cheers.

Appreciate the courtesy. And I know this is a difficult prejudice to get past. We get it in different form from both sides (Judaism and Christianity). But I/we still love you.

I am sorry you've met some who were rude and/or aggressive. I wish you well.

You are welcome back if you have further questions. 
Dan  

[jimmie]

Elaina,

Below are some scriptures that lay out my thoughts on non-Jews trying to live amongst Jews. While I started out as a pagan that converted to Christianity, my study of scripture and trying to follow Jesus' example of keeping/fulfilling the whole Law of God, has led me to reject most doctrines taught by the church in favor of what scripture and Jesus actually teaches. An example is 7th day (bible based and followed by Christ) verse 1st day (church taught) worship. I have to go with 7th day (sabbath) worship. So, though I am clearly not a home born Jew, my desire is to sojourn among them, keeping the laws that they received from God as Jesus instructed.

Ex 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Lev 16:Leviticus 16:29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:

Lev 18:Leviticus 18:26Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

Lev 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Num 9:14 And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto the LORD; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.

Num 15:14 And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever be among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; as ye do, so he shall do. 15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. 16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.


Numbers 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.


Numbers 19:10 And he that gathereth the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: and it shall be unto the children of Israel, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among them, for a statute for ever.

[Questor]

The difficulty from the Jewish point of view is that MJ's do not sojourn with them. No matter how observant, or Orthodox our halachah, MJ's do not live in their community, and submit to their community's halachah. MJ's are not currently Ger Toshav, living as Jews with Jews, and submitting to their halachah, as the G-d Fearers we read of did in the 1st Century.

Their subset halachah is Orthodox, and that halachah does not admit the possibility of Yeshua as Mashiach.

Most Orthodox Jews will not discuss Yeshua in a real search for truth, because halachah is not about truth, but belonging. Their idea of the truth is assumed as a predicate for the halachah, and their truth is that prophecy began with Moshe and ended with Malachi. The assumption of their truth is sufficient to support the community, and that is what is wanted.

This is the ultimate difficulty for Jews living as Orthodox or tolerated as Jews (Conservative/Reform/Secular), if they are.

Jews who follow Yeshua haMashiach as a Judaism need to hide it within Orthodoxy until they are willing to forego family and friends, and live alone with Yeshua, and the few Jews they have some community with among the minim.

Jewish halachah is far more important than any personal opinion, as they must retain that halachah, or lose their community, which is a death sentence in a world that hates Jews.


As a Jew who was raised not only secular, but G-d denying, and Origin denying, I find myself caught between two halachah's - Christianity and Orthodox Judiasm.

Being a follower of Yeshua, Jews think I am Christian; Christians, when they find out I am Jewish, think I have converted to Christianity from a foreign religion, when it is really a foreign mindset of information Christian's have limited understanding of, and that Orthodox Jews have little interest in, lest it pervert their community.


Messianic Judaism is at it's best a desperate search for the heart of Yeshua within the Scriptures and the Apostolic Writings, without the smothering ideas of Greco/Roman belief systems who took a nice little sect of Judaism in the 1st century and corrupted it beyond recognition. 


Unfortunately, the lack of Judaism within the MJ system makes it look terriby like a new denomination of Christianity . . . to Jews and to Gentiles. Being taught mostly by Christians attempting to shed Christian ideation does not really help.


And I feel like a fish out of water.

[alon]

Aug 31, 2024 14:56:54 GMT -8 Questor said:

Messianic Judaism is at it's best a desperate search for the heart of Yeshua within the Scriptures and the Apostolic Writings, without the smothering ideas of Greco/Roman belief systems who took a nice little sect of Judaism in the 1st century and corrupted it beyond recognition. 


Unfortunately, the lack of Judaism within the MJ system makes it look terriby like a new denomination of Christianity . . . to Jews and to Gentiles. Being taught mostly by Christians attempting to shed Christian ideation does not really help.


And I feel like a fish out of water.

We all feel that at times. Being a huge minority when compared to Christianity or Judaism, and considered a threat by both we can feel isolated; vulnerable.

Good post. I would point out a couple of things, though:

-- MJ for me is a search for truth and understanding in God's word.

-- Also, there is a lot of Judaism in some Messianic communities. I think it is wrong, but many try to copy contemporary Judaism, especially Orthodoxy. Where I go now is too far the other direction, being nothing like any Judaism I know of. But beggars can't be choosers. I allow them their freedom, and keep my own counsel on many things. If I was healthy I would try to start my own home fellowship. But alas ...

Good to hear from you.  

[Questor]

Sept 1, 2024 0:28:41 GMT -8 alon said:

Aug 31, 2024 14:56:54 GMT -8 Questor said:

Messianic Judaism is at it's best a desperate search for the heart of Yeshua within the Scriptures and the Apostolic Writings, without the smothering ideas of Greco/Roman belief systems who took a nice little sect of Judaism in the 1st century and corrupted it beyond recognition. 


Unfortunately, the lack of Judaism within the MJ system makes it look terriby like a new denomination of Christianity . . . to Jews and to Gentiles. Being taught mostly by Christians attempting to shed Christian ideation does not really help.


And I feel like a fish out of water.

We all feel that at times. Being a huge minority when compared to Christianity or Judaism, and considered a threat by both we can feel isolated; vulnerable.

Good post. I would point out a couple of things, though:

-- MJ for me is a search for truth and understanding in God's word.

-- Also, there is a lot of Judaism in some Messianic communities. I think it is wrong, but many try to copy contemporary Judaism, especially Orthodoxy. Where I go now is too far the other direction, being nothing like any Judaism I know of. But beggars can't be choosers. I allow them their freedom, and keep my own counsel on many things. If I was healthy I would try to start my own home fellowship. But alas ...

Good to hear from you.  

Thanks. Glad to find you here with us. Abba is not yet done with you, to my benefit at least.


I keep coming back to Ahavat because there is no one else to say anything to that might have a response . . . and I often find bits I have missed that strike me just where they need to. Your reminder to think not of law, and an absolute hitting of the mark; but of instructions, and learning to follow them a little better than before was much needed.

I wish that I was younger, with energy and health, as you do, to even attack the subjects properly, to find out what G-d meant an Israelite life to be like before the Israelites were dispersed for their sins.

So much was changed as the years passed after Moshe, and we have only a collection of traditons in Judaism put together to protect those left, even if they were in transgression of the T-orah, in a land we do not live in, under an economic and religious system long gone from us.

Our Temple is a scattering of those who follow Yeshua in ways that often do not take heed of Scripture; our sacrifices were made once for all in Yeshua, and we live in a cycle of learning, failing, and teshuvah, before beginning again.

My failure to do on my own much of worth or obedience, having no proper training and knowledge, leaves me beaten and bleeding spiritually. I do not seem to make much progress. 


I truly want to be greeted one day with a 'Well done, good and faithful servant."

And yet I cannot see much past a statement of "I never knew you! Get away from me, you worker of lawlessness!"


I know how to do so little, and I do it so badly.


What I hear from others leaves me feeling beaten to a pulp by the very scriptures that are meant to encourage me.

[slap888]

Aug 31, 2024 14:56:54 GMT -8 Questor said:

Nažalost, nedostatak judaizma u sustavu MJ čini da užasno izgleda kao nova denominacija kršćanstva. . . Židovima i nežidovima. To što nas poučavaju uglavnom kršćani koji pokušavaju odbaciti kršćanske ideje zapravo ne pomažu.


Osjećam se kao riba na izljevu vode.

Ah, dok se snađem s prvim postom... Na vašu žalost kažem; Svaki početak je težak ... kao i ovo moj prvi post u raspravi od kada sve pišem za google prevoditelj.
Kakav nedostatak judaizma u sustavu? Pa za Isusa kažu da je bio judaist
Istraživanje je bitno; Ja, kao nekakav neovisni kršćanin bez ikakvih jakih veza s nekim "kršćanskim" zajednicama, imam najprikladniju slobodu i neovisnost da dobro istražujem i bolje razumijem Sveto pismo. Naravno, ljudi vole širu i stabilniju zajednicu istomišljenika... ja sam kao riba na izljevu... a ovih dana se pitam postoji li u mojoj državi (Hrvatska) MJ društvo, zajednica Židova i nežidova.


From the rules:
13. The language of this forum is English. The use of biblical Hebrew and Greek is permitted for clarity. Other languages may be used if germain to the point being made. However a translation into English as well as any explanation necessary should be included. Moderators will make a determination when necessary whether any terms, statements, or posts in a different language are necessary or acceptable.

Please, I/we cannot moderate all the languages out there. This is why we ask that English be used here. Thanks.

Dan   

[slap888]

Sept 1, 2024 0:28:41 GMT -8 alon said:

 

You mean a community of like-minded people. It is difficult to align other people's minds and opinions with your own. Family members in societies, schools...have other influences on the choice, under which they can fall more strongly...so a person becomes disappointed in the family and thinks - should I have had them at all...

[Eliana]

Aug 31, 2024 14:56:54 GMT -8 Questor said:

The difficulty from the Jewish point of view is that MJ's do not sojourn with them. No matter how observant, or Orthodox our halachah, MJ's do not live in their community, and submit to their community's halachah. MJ's are not currently Ger Toshav, living as Jews with Jews, and submitting to their halachah, as the G-d Fearers we read of did in the 1st Century.

Ah yes, we're not sincere. If we were, we'd think like you and since we don't we must be lying/in denial/whatever. If only I had a euro for every time I've heard something like this from a Christian. Good luck with your outreach, you'll need it.

Aug 31, 2024 14:56:54 GMT -8 Questor said:

Their subset halachah is Orthodox, and that halachah does not admit the possibility of Yeshua as Mashiach.

Halakha is Jewish law based on the , written and oral. Orthodox is not a "subset"... conservative and reform "Jews" do not accept the divinity of halakha. You speak as if not believing in Jesus was a doctrine or codified in some way, as opposed to the fact we don't consider him because he doesn't fit the criteria. You weren't kidding about being raised secular and atheist, because you don't know squat about Judaism.

Aug 31, 2024 14:56:54 GMT -8 Questor said:

Most Orthodox Jews will not discuss Yeshua in a real search for truth, because halachah is not about truth, but belonging. Their idea of the truth is assumed as a predicate for the halachah, and their truth is that prophecy began with Moshe and ended with Malachi. The assumption of their truth is sufficient to support the community, and that is what is wanted.

More insults. If you're going to talk about what is and isn't halakha perhaps you should read about it sometime. I'll discuss Jesus as much as you like, you just won't like what I have to say and I'll be banned in short order.

Aug 31, 2024 14:56:54 GMT -8 Questor said:

This is the ultimate difficulty for Jews living as Orthodox or tolerated as Jews (Conservative/Reform/Secular), if they are.

No, the ultimate difficulty is obnoxious people like you.

Aug 31, 2024 14:56:54 GMT -8 Questor said:

Jews who follow Yeshua haMashiach as a Judaism need to hide it within Orthodoxy until they are willing to forego family and friends, and live alone with Yeshua, and the few Jews they have some community with among the minim.

Jewish halachah is far more important than any personal opinion, as they must retain that halachah, or lose their community, which is a death sentence in a world that hates Jews.

Firstly Jews convert to Christianity all the time and most of them haven't been ejected from their families. What a load of garbage. As a matter of fact, often when a Jew converts to Christianity they leave the community and stop talking to their families which is one of the reasons "Jews" for Jesus/Messianic "Jews" are do disliked.

Secondly halakha is based on the and is in fact somewhat malleable, people just disagree on how much so.

Aug 31, 2024 14:56:54 GMT -8 Questor said:

As a Jew who was raised not only secular, but G-d denying, and Origin denying, I find myself caught between two halachah's - Christianity and Orthodox Judiasm.

Being a follower of Yeshua, Jews think I am Christian; Christians, when they find out I am Jewish, think I have converted to Christianity from a foreign religion, when it is really a foreign mindset of information Christian's have limited understanding of, and that Orthodox Jews have little interest in, lest it pervert their community.


Messianic Judaism is at it's best a desperate search for the heart of Yeshua within the Scriptures and the Apostolic Writings, without the smothering ideas of Greco/Roman belief systems who took a nice little sect of Judaism in the 1st century and corrupted it beyond recognition. 


Unfortunately, the lack of Judaism within the MJ system makes it look terriby like a new denomination of Christianity . . . to Jews and to Gentiles. Being taught mostly by Christians attempting to shed Christian ideation does not really help.


And I feel like a fish out of water.

If your mother is Jewish then you are only Jewish in name, (technically an apostate), and are self admitted to having never practiced. You don't know anything about our rules, history or our culture and make it obvious.

[Eliana]

Sept 1, 2024 0:28:41 GMT -8 alon said:

Aug 31, 2024 14:56:54 GMT -8 Questor said:

Messianic Judaism is at it's best a desperate search for the heart of Yeshua within the Scriptures and the Apostolic Writings, without the smothering ideas of Greco/Roman belief systems who took a nice little sect of Judaism in the 1st century and corrupted it beyond recognition. 


Unfortunately, the lack of Judaism within the MJ system makes it look terriby like a new denomination of Christianity . . . to Jews and to Gentiles. Being taught mostly by Christians attempting to shed Christian ideation does not really help.


And I feel like a fish out of water.

We all feel that at times. Being a huge minority when compared to Christianity or Judaism, and considered a threat by both we can feel isolated; vulnerable.

Good post. I would point out a couple of things, though:

-- MJ for me is a search for truth and understanding in God's word.

-- Also, there is a lot of Judaism in some Messianic communities. I think it is wrong, but many try to copy contemporary Judaism, especially Orthodoxy. Where I go now is too far the other direction, being nothing like any Judaism I know of. But beggars can't be choosers. I allow them their freedom, and keep my own counsel on many things. If I was healthy I would try to start my own home fellowship. But alas ...

Good to hear from you.  

Ah yes, messianic Judaism is a search for truth, just get rid of all that Judaism which is wrong. You guys wonder why/complain we don't accept you as part of the Jewish community.

[Questor]

Sept 8, 2024 12:51:24 GMT -8 Eliana said:

Aug 31, 2024 14:56:54 GMT -8 Questor said:

The difficulty from the Jewish point of view is that MJ's do not sojourn with them. No matter how observant, or Orthodox our halachah, MJ's do not live in their community, and submit to their community's halachah. MJ's are not currently Ger Toshav, living as Jews with Jews, and submitting to their halachah, as the G-d Fearers we read of did in the 1st Century.

Ah yes, we're not sincere. If we were, we'd think like you and since we don't we must be lying/in denial/whatever. If only I had a euro for every time I've heard something like this from a Christian. Good luck with your outreach, you'll need it.

I think Orthodox Jews are perfectly sincere. I may think them uninformed about my attempt to follow Yeshua within Judaism, as he was in the 1st Century, but I consider it natural due to the divergence of views beginning in AD 70. 

Aug 31, 2024 14:56:54 GMT -8 Questor said:

Their subset halachah is Orthodox, and that halachah does not admit the possibility of Yeshua as Mashiach.

Halakha is Jewish law based on the , written and oral. Orthodox is not a "subset"... conservative and reform "Jews" do not accept the divinity of halakha. You speak as if not believing in Jesus was a doctrine or codified in some way, as opposed to the fact we don't consider him because he doesn't fit the criteria. You weren't kidding about being raised secular and atheist, because you don't know squat about Judaism.

There is more than one 'subset' of halacha within Judaism. It does not make Orthodox halacha any the less for being different than other halacha that does not follow oral tradition, such as the various Non-Rabbinic Judaism's—Sadducees, Nazarenes, Karaite Judaism, and Haymanot. They, and we, simply do not accept Rabbinic halachah as divinely given. 

Aug 31, 2024 14:56:54 GMT -8 Questor said:

Most Orthodox Jews will not discuss Yeshua in a real search for truth, because halachah is not about truth, but belonging. Their idea of the truth is assumed as a predicate for the halachah, and their truth is that prophecy began with Moshe and ended with Malachi. The assumption of their truth is sufficient to support the community, and that is what is wanted.

More insults. If you're going to talk about what is and isn't halakha perhaps you should read about it sometime. I'll discuss Jesus as much as you like, you just won't like what I have to say and I'll be banned in short order.

I was not aware of insulting anyone or anything, simply stating what I see as relevant. Halachah is about how one lives, and why. The truth I see in Orthodox Judaism is a refusal to step beyond what was stated in Rabbinic law. Not being raised in it, I look outside of Rabinnic claims, that is all. 

Aug 31, 2024 14:56:54 GMT -8 Questor said:

This is the ultimate difficulty for Jews living as Orthodox or tolerated as Jews (Conservative/Reform/Secular), if they are.

No, the ultimate difficulty is obnoxious people like you.

Obnoxious? You are merely stating that you find me unpleasant. Disagreement does come across as that, but I do not mean it so. I am merely stating what I see and believe. You are free to disagree, and be seen as obnoxious as well. But I hope not to be so rude as to begin name calling over what we disagree about.

Aug 31, 2024 14:56:54 GMT -8 Questor said:

Jews who follow Yeshua haMashiach as a Judaism need to hide it within Orthodoxy until they are willing to forego family and friends, and live alone with Yeshua, and the few Jews they have some community with among the minim.

Jewish halachah is far more important than any personal opinion, as they must retain that halachah, or lose their community, which is a death sentence in a world that hates Jews.

Firstly Jews convert to Christianity all the time and most of them haven't been ejected from their families. What a load of garbage. As a matter of fact, often when a Jew converts to Christianity they leave the community and stop talking to their families which is one of the reasons "Jews" for Jesus/Messianic "Jews" are do disliked.

Secondly halakha is based on the and is in fact somewhat malleable, people just disagree on how much so.

I am sorry that your experience of Jews finding haMashiach is a one in which you feel deserted.


I am glad that you find Orthodox halacha to be less stringent than is ordinarily stated in the books and teaching available to those outside your own community.

Aug 31, 2024 14:56:54 GMT -8 Questor said:

As a Jew who was raised not only secular, but G-d denying, and Origin denying, I find myself caught between two halachah's - Christianity and Orthodox Judiasm.

Being a follower of Yeshua, Jews think I am Christian; Christians, when they find out I am Jewish, think I have converted to Christianity from a foreign religion, when it is really a foreign mindset of information Christian's have limited understanding of, and that Orthodox Jews have little interest in, lest it pervert their community.


Messianic Judaism is at it's best a desperate search for the heart of Yeshua within the Scriptures and the Apostolic Writings, without the smothering ideas of Greco/Roman belief systems who took a nice little sect of Judaism in the 1st century and corrupted it beyond recognition. 


Unfortunately, the lack of Judaism within the MJ system makes it look terriby like a new denomination of Christianity . . . to Jews and to Gentiles. Being taught mostly by Christians attempting to shed Christian ideation does not really help.


And I feel like a fish out of water.

If your mother is Jewish then you are only Jewish in name, (technically an apostate), and are self admitted to having never practiced. You don't know anything about our rules, history or our culture and make it obvious.

I know enough of Judaism to know that I cannot ever replace having been raised within it. That is not to say I know nothing of Judaism's rules, history, or culture.

I can say, however, that despite the sensation of being constantly torn in two between normative Judaism and what is secular that if it was my only way to find Yeshua, I will take finding Yeshua, and the painful knowledge that members of my family, however distant, want nothing to do with me.