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Post by alfredpersson on Nov 19, 2023 18:14:42 GMT -8
I knew you didn't agree with Christians on this, just was confused where. You made it clear.
I received the Holy Spirit by believing in Christ as God the Son and therefore am already perfected in Christ, saved "to the uttermost" (Heb. 7:25)
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?(Gal. 3:2-3 NKJ)
I link verse Acts 15:21 to verse 20, but understand James to be ordering Gentiles not to do the four things "because Jewish communities are everywhere and Jewish scruples are to be respected. I don't see him contradicting his plain statement:
Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law "-- to whom we gave no such commandment-- (Acts 15:24 NKJ)
The law can't be kept in "steps" as you claim:
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. (Jas. 2:10-11 NKJ)
The book of Galatians (written mostly to Jews), is clear Christ fulfilled the law. But I have no argument with those who want to restore Jewishness to Christianity, but not if it diminishes the LORD Jesus Christ or His sacrifice for our sins, in any manner.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. (Gal. 5:4-6 NKJ)
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Post by alon on Nov 20, 2023 12:11:02 GMT -8
I knew you didn't agree with Christians on this, just was confused where. You made it clear.
The subject here is neither you nor youor salvation, bur “he” (Yeshua) who is able to save. So “to the uttermost” is applied to His ability, not to your salvation. Yeshua does the saving, and is able to do so completely, with one exception. You have free will, a condition God set upon Himself and thus He will not violate it. No one- not even ha’satan- can take you from His hand. But you can walk away any time you wish.
We too believe in salvation by grace alone. It is the work of the Ruach (Holy Spirit). Galatians 3:2-3 ends with the phrase “made perfect by the flesh.” This neither says nor implies the nullification of Torah. The subject is those believers being addressed, and they were now depending on not just Torah observance to save them, but this ritual some rabbonim had placed before them. Neither Torah nor ritual will save anyone.
Messianism does not preach Torah observance for the purpose of salvation. We keep Torah because it pleases God, a thing we desire to do. Obedience is a result of salvation, not a means of salvation. I do not see him contradicting that statement either. The problem does not lie with James, rather with the church fathers who were trying their utmost to divest themselves and their new religion of anything even hinting of Judaism.
James in that statement links the term “circumcision” with keeping the law. Thus circumcision is used as a metaphor for Torah observance. This circumcision party was teaching full Torah observance as a means to salvation. It is not, nor was it ever so; and they nor we teach this. I claimed the “law” was learned in steps, not kept in steps. Once you learn of a commandment or instruction you are accountable to keep it. But I have been going through Torah every year now for well over 10 yrs, and I still learn from it. No one, not even Jews learn all of Torah at one time. Just about any Jew who has went through Torah every year all his life as well will tell you the same- still learning. Otherwise what would be the purpose?
The difference is Messianics believe one of the best ways to learn is to link Torah to the rest of the 61 books of the Bible, which would include the New Testament. In fact, one of the things the Jews expected of Messiah was that He would better explain Torah. Jesus did exactly that, and His disciples after Him as recorded in the works and letters of His shaliachim (apostles).Absolutely! If you are going to depend on the law to save you then you must keep every point of the law perfectly. However you are assuming that grace is a NT only phenomenon. This is again how the church fathers defined and taught it. It is not. Think for a moment- if there was not grace, it all would have ended the moment Adam touched the forbidden fruit. Melech Dovid (King David) would have been stricken down the moment Nathan confronted him (instead he was forgiven and called a man after God’s own heart). Noach, Avraham, Yitz’qach, Ya’aqov, and even Petros all failed, as all men do. Yet they all went on to greatness in Adonai. There is grace throughout the Bible. And we as Torah observant believers also have that same grace available to us. All we must do is repent and ask forgiveness when we fall.
“Whoever shall keep the whole law” implies one depending on the law to save them. Neither OT Jews nor contemporary Messianics depend on observance or obedience to save us. We look at Torah as God’s instructions to us for holy living. Holy in Hebrew is “qadosh”- set apart (to or for God). We keep Torah because we desire to be qadosh. When we stumble we ask forgiveness, again depending on God’s grace and mercy and not on our imperfect works.
Well, I hope I have made it clear we in no way diminish the work of God’s Spirit in either our salvation or our learning of His instructions to us.
Before my illness progressed too far to do it I wrote the weekly parashah (Torah portion) for my synagogue as well as for this forum. For a while I shared this duty with a friend (we both were ordained Scribes in our synagogue, but not here on the forum nor in the parent synagogue here). At different times we both felt the Spirit working through us. It is difficult to explain, but we’d just start writing, often far above our training or knowledge. And it was not just our ramblings, as these parashot were checked for accuracy by the rabbi prior to their being read in synagogue.
Once I had to do a parashah very quickly to get it to rabbi in time to be checked. I thought it was the worst effort I’d ever put out. But rabbi and many of our congregation came to me and said it was the best I had ever done! I had to ask them to show me what they liked about it, and when they did I immediately saw! But I will tell you now, I in no way other than as an instrument of the Ruach wrote that parashah. Just goes to show, if God can speak through Ba’alam’s ass, He can speak through you and me. However the caution here is the same- never think it is by your or my efforts, rather a work of the Spirit of the Almighty. Gal 5:4-6 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified [counted righteous; innocent] by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.- “you who would be justified [counted righteous; innocent] by the law”- you who are depending on keeping the law for your salvation
- “you have fallen away from grace”- as I said, you still have free will; and so while no one, man nor demon can remove you from God’s grace, you can step away at any time
- “For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness”- again you and I agree on this; salvation is a work of the Ruach and not of our own
- “neither circumcision nor uncircumcision”- again, circumcision is commonly used as a metaphor for those attempting to keep Torah as a means of attaining their own salvationWe should all keep Torah (God’s instructions for living qadosh, set apart to Himself). Yeshua was right (go figure)- His yoke is light. Keeping Torah is not a burden, but a joy! However I will tell you I seriously doubt anyone could keep it without the leading of the Ruach. And that seldom happens unless one is saved. If first saved however you and I have God’s Spirit to help guide us.
Let’s deal with the term “fulfill.” This is an excerpt from one of my very old posts:Yeshua (Jesus) Was a Torah Observant Jew
Mat 5:17-19 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
fulfil (fʊlˈfɪl) v.t.
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
3. to satisfy requirements, obligations, etc.: to fulfill a long-felt need.
4. to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time.
5. to develop the full potential of (usu. used reflexively): to fulfill oneself in charitable work.
(Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.)So, out of 5 possible meanings of the word fulfill, 4 support that Torah is still in effect. And out of 3 verses which undeniably say Torah is still valid, one word and one fifth of a definition of that word are taken and used by Christians to say Torah is done away with. No honest reading supports this.
My interpretation is supported by the very next statement Rav Shaul made after saying Yeshua fulfilled the Law:
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.The way I read that, some who do not perfectly keep Torah may be there in the olam ha'ba (world to come), but they will suffer loss for their unrepented and unforgiven disobedience concerning Torah.Furthermore this passage starts out: Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Using Christianities definition of "fulfill," this reads "Do not think that I have come to abolish do away with the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish do away with them but to fulfill do away with them." Makes absolutely no sense.
Yeshua did fulfill His purpose. His ministry operated at full potential to make His word clear. However that word was perverted by men; primarily by the church fathers, whose teachings are so ingrained we still tend to miss the utter foolishness of their interpretations, as here with "fulfill." I say we because I was once where you are, and I know how difficult it is to see past what we've bee taught all our lives (or at least all our 'Christian' lives). But consider this honestly and I think there is only one way to see the passage above- Yeshua did all that is in that definition I posted except #4. He did not bring an end to the "law." |
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Post by jimmie on Nov 22, 2023 14:18:42 GMT -8
Exodus 5:13 And the taskmasters hasted them, saying, Fulfil your works, your daily tasks, as when there was straw.
I suppose if the Israelis has just Fufiled their work it would have been done away with and they wouldn't had to make any more bricks.
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Post by alfredpersson on Nov 24, 2023 3:02:43 GMT -8
Yeshua (Jesus) Was a  Observant Jew
Mat 5:17-19 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
fulfil (fʊlˈfɪl) v.t.
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
3. to satisfy requirements, obligations, etc.: to fulfill a long-felt need.
4. to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time.
5. to develop the full potential of (usu. used reflexively): to fulfill oneself in charitable work.
(Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.)
So, out of 5 possible meanings of the word fulfill, 4 support that is still in effect. And out of 3 verses which undeniably say is still valid, one word and one fifth of a definition of that word are taken and used by Christians to say is done away with. No honest reading supports this.
My interpretation is supported by the very next statement Rav Shaul made after saying Yeshua fulfilled the Law:
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The way I read that, some who do not perfectly keep may be there in the olam ha'ba (world to come), but they will suffer loss for their unrepented and unforgiven disobedience concerning .
Furthermore this passage starts out: Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Using Christianities definition of "fulfill," this reads "Do not think that I have come to abolish do away with the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish do away with them but to fulfill do away with them." Makes absolutely no sense.
Yeshua did fulfill His purpose. His ministry operated at full potential to make His word clear. However that word was perverted by men; primarily by the church fathers, whose teachings are so ingrained we still tend to miss the utter foolishness of their interpretations, as here with "fulfill." I say we because I was once where you are, and I know how difficult it is to see past what we've bee taught all our lives (or at least all our 'Christian' lives). But consider this honestly and I think there is only one way to see the passage above- Yeshua did all that is in that definition I posted except #4. He did not bring an end to the "law."
For now, just commenting on the above. You should reread the English Definitions of "fulfill" the first four are not in your favor, they do not imply "continuence", only defintion #5 does. I believe Christ fulfilled the law by fulfilling Daniel 9:24: "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. (Dan. 9:24 NKJ) None of this abolished the Laws commandments, its moral precepts. Unlike apostates, I believe all the moral precepts are fully in effect, worshipping God alone, no idols, no sodomy, etc... Christ accomplished what the Law was supposed to do, bring salvation to those who repent: 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. 23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another-- 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:22-28 NKJ) By His one Timeless Sacrifice all the dead who die unsaved, are judged upon physical death. They are offered salvation in Christ, and those who accept then "eagerly wait for Him" His second appearance "for salvation", to be raised from the dead. |
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Post by alfredpersson on Nov 24, 2023 14:45:08 GMT -8
Hebrews 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
The subject here is neither you nor youor salvation, bur “he” (Yeshua) who is able to save. So “to the uttermost” is applied to His ability, not to your salvation. I disagree. "able to save...THOSE" who draw near, since he always lives... You are correct the subject is Jesus' ability to save...since He always lives, but He is saving "those who draw near...to the uttermost". I do not believe any man can pluck us from God's hand, even we ourselves. If someone made the choice to "jump out of God's hand", they were never in it to begin with. There are children of the devil and children of God, and like darnel sown among wheat, hard to distinguish the two. But God knows who are His. |
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Post by alon on Nov 25, 2023 17:42:48 GMT -8
First off, you do agree there is one definition (#5) that does imply continuance. And I have said #4 implies an end. So let’s look at Nos. 1, 2, & 3:1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
Biblically promises are forever, and prophecies recur. Ancient Hebrews saw time as plotted on a spiral, not a line as we tend to see it. Events happen again and again. Revelation for instance was written FOR us, but TO the Jewish believers (including Gentiles who were grafted onto them) of Asia-Minor during a time of great persecution and natural disasters. They needed to have the reassurance that in the end there is an ultimate salvation as well as justice for what they were going through. There were massive earthquakes in the region, fires and smoke so thick the sun and moon both appeared red (Blood Moons). And everything in Revelation has happened again and again. I believe the last time will be worse than anything before. But almost everything therein has happened before, including the coming of Messiah. Fulfilled, but not ended.
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
Since when do we obey one command and all our obligations are ended? This one most certainly implies continuance!
3. to satisfy requirements, obligations, etc.: to fulfill a long-felt need.
Requirements, obligations, and needs absolutely do continue after being “fulfilled.” One who is fulfilled by say by volunteering at a charity would cease to be so if that charity folds. That fulfillment is ongoing, not just done completely by signing up.
Yes, He did set the stage for fulfillment there; essentially plotting this event at another spot on the spiral of time. But to say it is done; not by a long shot. There is more and more transgression, sin, and iniquity every day. Righteousness seems to be getting less and leas. And while there are many charlatans and frauds, we still do have valid visions and prophecy.
Well, that’s something, at least. But most of Christianity does violate the precepts of keeping Shabbat and the commanded feast days, as well as idolatry. And many know little of those moral concepts not specifically mentioned in the NT because they will not read the OT.
Jesus was not the final sacrifice, He was the only sacrifice! He was the One all other sacrifices point to, before and after. Yes, after. Sacrifices will continue once the Temple is rebuilt and purified after Anti-Christ has his way with it. As earlier sacrifices looked forward to Yeshua, these later sacrifices will look back to Him and what He did for us (Hebrews 10:3). Isaiah 56:6-8; Zechariah 14:16; and Jeremiah 33:15-18 all predict a continuation of the sacrificial system.
Yes, He is ale to save those who draw near to the uttermost. That is what it says. But that does not mean those who draw near Him in Hell. Nowhere in that verse is it stated or implied. Nor is it so contextually.
The passage starts in vs.11 talking about the A‘aronic priesthood vs. that of Malki-tzedek (Righteous King), whose office is eternal. Yeshua is a Cohen Ha’Gadol (High Priest) after the order of Malki-tzedek (vss. 15, 20-22). Since the A’aronic priesthood frequently changed (all men die), we have in Yeshua a “guarantor of a better covenant (vss. 22-24).” Men change, but God does not; and Yeshua is God. He is immortal, and so we have consistency in how the law is applied to us. He is there to make intercession for us, not for those in Hell. To interpret it as saying that is a stretch of monumental proportions! How very Calvinist. Being raised Southern Baptist, I have heard this argument al my life. It is a bit presumptuous to define another's salvation, so I will just say I have known men who showed all the fruits of salvation and then they fall into sin and then fall away. Were they ‘saved?’ Neither you nor I can know. Ultimately it is between them and God.
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Post by alfredpersson on Nov 26, 2023 9:03:20 GMT -8
First off, you do agree there is one definition (#5) that does imply continuance. And I have said #4 implies an end. So let’s look at Nos. 1, 2, & 3:
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
Biblically promises are forever, and prophecies recur. Ancient Hebrews saw time as plotted on a spiral, not a line as we tend to see it. Events happen again and again. Revelation for instance was written FOR us, but TO the Jewish believers (including Gentiles who were grafted onto them) of Asia-Minor during a time of great persecution and natural disasters. They needed to have the reassurance that in the end there is an ultimate salvation as well as justice for what they were going through. There were massive earthquakes in the region, fires and smoke so thick the sun and moon both appeared red (Blood Moons). And everything in Revelation has happened again and again. I believe the last time will be worse than anything before. But almost everything therein has happened before, including the coming of Messiah. Fulfilled, but not ended.
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
Since when do we obey one command and all our obligations are ended? This one most certainly implies continuance!
3. to satisfy requirements, obligations, etc.: to fulfill a long-felt need.
Requirements, obligations, and needs absolutely do continue after being “fulfilled.” One who is fulfilled by say by volunteering at a charity would cease to be so if that charity folds. That fulfillment is ongoing, not just done completely by signing up.
Rather than focus on English “fulfill”, its best to look at the Greek:
I-came not to-abolish but to-fulfill.
LEXICON—a. aorist act. infin. of πληρόω (LN 33.144) (BAGD 4.b. p. 671): ‘to fulfill’ [BAGD, BECNT, BNTC, CC, NICNT, NIGTC, NTC, PNTC; ESV, KJV, NASB, NET, NIV, NLT, NRSV], ‘to complete’ [REB], ‘to bring to an intended goal’ [WBC], ‘to give the full meaning’ [CEV], ‘to give true meaning to’ [LN], ‘to make (them/their teachings) come true’ [GW, TEV], ‘to bring about (what they said)’ [NCV], ‘to provide the real significance of’ [LN]. This verb means to give the true or complete meaning to something [LN].-Abernathy, D. (2013). An Exegetical Summary of Matthew 1–16 (p. 120). SIL International.
Daniel 9:24 predicts how the Messiah would fulfil this in the seventieth week, which according to Sir Anderson’s calculations (The Coming Prince) ends on the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey. The objection sin still continues ignores the supernatural character of the fulfilment. Christ’s sacrifice accomplished the goal of all sacrifice. The objection transgression continued after Christ’s resurrection applies to all other dates as well. Satan leads a rebellion with Gog and Magog in Revelation 20:7-10, invalidating all other suggested dates as well. Hence the hyper literal interpretation is impossible for everyone. Daniel 9:24 occurs in history, but transcends time and space. For example, it is said Jesus the Lamb was “slain before the founding of the world” (Rev. 13:8; 1 Pet. 1:20). Once God decided to created, the necessity of the sacrifice also came to be. Hebrew 9:26 applies Christ’s sacrifice to everyone since “the foundation of the world” 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. (Heb. 9:26 NKJ) Alfred Persson says
I do not believe any man can pluck us from God's hand, even we ourselves. If someone made the choice to "jump out of God's hand", they were never in it to begin with. There are children of the devil and children of God, and like darnel sown among wheat, hard to distinguish the two. But God knows who are His.
How very Calvinist. Being raised Southern Baptist, I have heard this argument al my life. It is a bit presumptuous to define another's salvation, so I will just say I have known men who showed all the fruits of salvation and then they fall into sin and then fall away. Were they ‘saved?’ Neither you nor I can know. Ultimately it is between them and God.
אלון
Recall I a reject the binary construct of “elect” and “reprobate”, the Middling People explain the existence of every text you can cite that implies saved people can lose their salvation. The elect cannot. God will not permit one of those He foreknew, be lost in this fallen world. These are the “apple of God’s eye”, and if He could not secure their salvation He wouldn’t have permitted the fall of mankind occur. endtimenews.net/calvins-self-contradiction-proves-sherlock-holmes-was-a-much-better-logician/
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Post by alon on Nov 26, 2023 12:59:31 GMT -8
Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Focusing then on the English definition of aorist (since that is our common language), and the Greek translation of πληρόω plēroō/fulfill (since that is where you rightly want to focus):
a•o•rist (ˈeɪ ə rɪst) n.
1. a verb tense, as in Classical Greek, expressing action, esp. in the past, without further implication as to completion, duration, or repetition.
adj.
2. of or in this tense.
[1575–85; < Greek aóristos unlimited]
a`o•ris′tic, adj.
a`o•ris′ti•cal•ly, adv.
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary,
G4137 πληρόω plēroō - to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), *finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, **(be) complete, ***end, ****expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.
Since, as you say this is in the aorist tense those underlined definitions marked with one or more asterisks cannot be the case:
*finish (a period or task)
**(be) complete
***end
****expire
Nor can any other definition implying or stating an end to any part of God’s Word; especially Torah (the LAW- or more accurately God’s instructions to man for holy living).
That alone would nullify the rest of your interpretive argument. However let’s look at it since it is part of what drives you to your conclusion salvation cannot be fulfilled/ended with death:
Hyper-spiritualization is an ingrained problem in Christianity (one of the harder things to overcome we face when becoming Messianics). If anything cannot be explained, just spiritualize it and it is automatically explained and easily dismissed. With this mindset in one’s audience it becomes easy to convince people of doctrines they would otherwise condemn.
“The objection transgression continued after Christ’s resurrection applies to all other dates” is a valid point if applied to any time after man’s fall in the Garden and before the Olam ha’ba (World to Come). Even then ha’satan will be loosed for a time at the end of the millennium. Sin and death will continue until then.
“According to Sir Anderson’s calculations” just means ‘according to Sir Anderson’s’ somewhat informed opinion. There are however many such opinions by many Christian scholars. Interesting though that he lands on the “Triumphal Entry.” The reason Yeshua rode in on a donkeys colt is that is an animal of peace. Kings would ride into cities where conquest and/or occupation and domination might be contested in a chariot to show their power and might. In places more settled, where his authority was accepted a king would ride in on a donkey. Yeshua was saying to Rome and the governor and all other officials in Judea and (since Yerushalem is the eternal capitol of Yisroel) all the powers in all of ha’Eretz Yisroel (esecially ha’satan) that He was the undisputed owner, power, and authority there. This is one reason He provoked so much anger in both men (those in authority and others like the Sadducees who depended on Rome for their wealth and position) and in demonic forces (ha’satan and those gods who controled the various regions in ha’Eretz). Sin was not ‘conquered’ until the Cross, and death upon His resurrection. And as they have not yet been done away with this would be in the aorist tense.
That Yeshua was “slain before the founding of the world” just means Adonai knew this would become necessary, and He was willing even then to do it to redeem His creation (1 Peter 1:20).
Let’s look at that in context so we get a better understanding:
Hebrews 9: 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. [His office as Cohen Ha’Gadol/High Priest] 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, [the eternal Order of Malki-Tzadek which I explained to before, saying …] 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. [the office of HP was filled by mortal men until assumed by Yeshua, to whom that office had pointed all along. Men die, but Yeshua is Eternal God, the Self Existant One] 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, [which scriptural segment destroys your assertion men get another chance to repent after being dead and in Hell] 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. [This “second” appearance refers to the “Second Coming” where Messiah Yeshua will appear in the clouds (Mat 24:30,Rev 1:7 ), this time on a horse (Rev 19:11-16) which is an animal of war. It is now He will claim those who are His, as we will rise to meet Him in the air (1 Thes 4:14-17). But He will also kill all who are left (Rev 19:11-20; ). The only thing the Bible says they will face from here on is the “White Throne Judgement”]
You also said at one point ‘God knows those who are His.’ I would posit those are the elect who are called to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Rev 19:6-9). These cannot include anyone not ‘saved’ before His second Coming, because that happens in scripture right after the Supper. I Believe this all happens at about the same time, because those asleep in the dust are called just after this passage, and then those who are alive (1 Thes 4:16-18). Those “middlings” you believe are in Hell cannot then be at this Supper. So what of them? No other marriages or suppers are recorded in scripture. Does God then have a harim of concubines? I’d call that not only false doctrine, but blasphemy! Or do you have another idea?
First off, that "He wouldn’t have permitted the fall of mankind occur" if He could not have kept His elect (presumably you mean those middling in Hell) from being lost is purely conjecture on your part.
He can secure salvation for those who repent and do not fall away (exercise free will and step from His hand). However He did give us free will, and that He will not violate. While we are here in this life He will go to great lengths to bring back those who have strayed (Mat 12:18-14). But vs. 13 there says “And if he finds it,” not that He will find it.
LOL. you will get no argument from me by saying Calvinism is illogical. JC- John Calvin, not the more well known JC who is always right- but JC had his good points. He also was dead wrong on other points of scripture. For instance, he preached the killing of those who disagreed with him was a moral necessity. Some say he had those he labeled heretics for disagreeing executed. Others that he never had anyone executed himself, but his preaching was responsible for others executing disagreers in his name. Either way, seems a great way to end a disagreement in your own favor! I personally let God settle that Himself.
Like the doctrine of a Trinity, your doctrine of “middlens” in “Hell” being given more chances to repent is based on induction, which is the weakest form of logic; fraught with fallacies that can lead us to wrong conclusions. Salvation is based on our choice to worship only Elohei Yisroel, now personified in Yeshua. It is an exercise of our free will. While being tortured in Hell any and everyone would make that confession of faith; but how can agreement based on torture be valid? How can the repentance of a middlen in Hell be counted as righteousness? They had no burning desire to worship Adonai; just a burning commitment to escape Hell any way they could.
John 15:6; Mat 10:28, 23:33; Jude 12-13; Rev 14:11,20:10 all hint there is no escape. Luke 16:19-31 tells us there is no way to cross the divide between the righteous and unrighteous after death. All inference? Yes. But I think much better inference than you have presented. On the other hand, I’m not JC (either one in this case), so I cannot condemn you to death (along with your ideas).
Drat! (j/k)
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Post by alfredpersson on Nov 27, 2023 19:53:23 GMT -8
a•o•rist (ˈeɪ ə rɪst) n.
1. a verb tense, as in Classical Greek, expressing action, esp. in the past, without further implication as to completion, duration, or repetition.
adj.
2. of or in this tense.
[1575–85; < Greek aóristos unlimited]
a`o•ris′tic, adj.
a`o•ris′ti•cal•ly, adv.
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary,
G4137 πληρόω plēroō - to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), *finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, **(be) complete, ***end, ****expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.
Since, as you say this is in the aorist tense those underlined definitions marked with one or more asterisks cannot be the case:
*finish (a period or task)
**(be) complete
*
**end
****expire
I don't believe Random House is correct, the aorist is a snapshot of an event without respect to time, unless its in the indicative mood or an aorist participle:
aorist — The aorist verb tense is used by the writer to present the action of a verb as a “snapshot” event. The verb’s action is portrayed simply and in summary fashion without respect to any process. In the indicative mood, the aorist usually denotes past time, while an aorist participle usually refers to antecedent time with respect to the main verb. Outside the indicative and the participle, the aorist does not indicate time. “First Aorist” refers to the inflected form. First Aorist verbs are marked by an augment (usually a prefixed ε, η or ω) and either -σα, -ξα, or -ψα as part of the suffix endings.-Heiser, M. S., & Setterholm, V. M. (2013; 2013). Glossary of Morpho-Syntactic Database Terminology. Lexham Press.
In Mt 5:17 its "active", signifying Christ was performing the fulfilling as He spoke.
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Post by alfredpersson on Nov 27, 2023 23:08:13 GMT -8
Alfred Persson says:
I do not believe any man can pluck us from God's hand, even we ourselves. If someone made the choice to "jump out of God's hand", they were never in it to begin with. There are children of the devil and children of God, and like darnel sown among wheat, hard to distinguish the two. But God knows who are His.
alon said:
How very Calvinist. Being raised Southern Baptist, I have heard this argument al my life. It is a bit presumptuous to define another's salvation, so I will just say I have known men who showed all the fruits of salvation and then they fall into sin and then fall away. Were they ‘saved?’ Neither you nor I can know. Ultimately it is between them and God.
Alfred Persson says
Recall I a reject the binary construct of “elect” and “reprobate”, the Middling People explain the existence of every text you can cite that implies saved people can lose their salvation.
alon said:
You also said at one point ‘God knows those who are His.’ I would posit those are the elect who are called to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Rev 19:6-9). These cannot include anyone not ‘saved’ before His second Coming, because that happens in scripture right after the Supper. I Believe this all happens at about the same time, because those asleep in the dust are called just after this passage, and then those who are alive (1 Thes 4:16-18). Those “middlings” you believe are in Hell cannot then be at this Supper. So what of them? No other marriages or suppers are recorded in scripture. Does God then have a harim of concubines? I’d call that not only false doctrine, but blasphemy! Or do you have another idea?
I find the Jewish Tradition of three classes also in the NT. We know the binary construct is wrong because of what Christ said He would do after Armageddon. He would judge the Sheep and Goats (Mat. 24:31-46), Christians who didn’t commit themselves to Christ before He and His angels come. This is a judgment of Christendom, not the world. All members of Christendom who failed to repent and confess Jesus is LORD, and be saved. They are judged before the world is. Its the first thing Christ does, thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, gathering the wheat into the barn but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire (Luke 3:17) The Sheep and Goats are judged by how they treated Christ’s brethren (Christians persecuted by the Antichrist Beast). Notice the wording, “these my brethren” imply Christ is pointing to those seated with Him, as He says this:"And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Matt. 25:40 NKJ) The sheep helped them in their hour of need, the goats did not. So the Middling people, the undetermined who chose to “receive Christ vicariously” by helping His brethren in their time of need, join the Elect in salvation while those Middling people who behaved wickedly, the goats join the reprobate Wicked who are cast into the flame. So three classes are proved to exist in the Sheep and Goat Judgment. I never said the “middling people” are all in hell, don’t know where you got that. Three classes exist on Judgment day, the Righteous, the Middling, the Wicked. These were alive before they died. We can choose to be saved in this life, and not go to Hades. As for Marriage Supper of the Lamb, that also shows three classes. Everyone is told the Master is coming, both the Elect and Middling who pay heed enter with the bridegroom, the Middling people who were not ready, don’t enter. Unlike the Eternally Wicked, they did go out for a time...but didn't endure. 7 "Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 "And the foolish said to the wise,`Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' 9 "But the wise answered, saying,`No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.' 10 "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. 11 "Afterward the other virgins came also, saying,`Lord, Lord, open to us!' 12 "But he answered and said,`Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.' (Matt. 25:7-12 NKJ) The three classes are also evident in the parable of the talents: 14 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 "And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 "Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 "And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 "But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord's money. (Matt. 25:14-18 NKJ) The sons of God the Elect are not being judged, His servants are. Some of the middling are faithful, others are not and fail this judgment.
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Post by alon on Nov 28, 2023 6:39:25 GMT -8
I don't believe Random House is correct, the aorist is a snapshot of an event without respect to time, unless its in the indicative mood or an aorist participle: aorist — The aorist verb tense is used by the writer to present the action of a verb as a “snapshot” event. The verb’s action is portrayed simply and in summary fashion without respect to any process. In the indicative mood, the aorist usually denotes past time, while an aorist participle usually refers to antecedent time with respect to the main verb. Outside the indicative and the participle, the aorist does not indicate time. “First Aorist” refers to the inflected form. First Aorist verbs are marked by an augment (usually a prefixed ε, η or ω) and either -σα, -ξα, or -ψα as part of the suffix endings.-Heiser, M. S., & Setterholm, V. M. (2013; 2013). Glossary of Morpho-Syntactic Database Terminology. Lexham Press. In Mt 5:17 its "active", signifying Christ was performing the fulfilling as He spoke.
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Post by alon on Nov 28, 2023 7:02:34 GMT -8
You "find" this only by induction- which as I said earlier is the weakest form of logic. And you read in a lot that just is not there to scripture.Actually all you have done here is support the binary/judgement of the righteous and later the unrighteous construct. Also I read this as a judgement of the entire world. In fact, in spiritually the world is divided into only two kinds of people- Jews and pagans; sheep and goats; saved and unsaved.
One of the hallmarks of a believer (one fruit of the Spirit) is our imperative to help others, especially fellow believers.
How often Christians accuse us as having a doctrine of works. Yet what you present here is exactly that- these middlens earning a second chance to repent as they stand before Almighty God; which is to say they have earned salvation as who in their right mind would choose to go against God in person?
No, they are not proven. You have inferred them with some specious interpretations.
I thought you did. Maybe I inferred it because you are Christian. So if not in Hell, where are these middlens stored until judgement? And which judgement? When does it occur?
Now you are confusing me. If they are at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb then they are saved because they accepted the Christ in their lifetime; believed on Him as God of the Jews and trusted Him and followed Him.
Only two classes are shown here: those who are prepared and those who are not. Those not prepared are not allowed entry.
This parable shows that if we have the Word, that is not enough. The Word is no good if not shared. It also illustrates we are to trust the Master, not cower in fear of Him. In the next verse that servant was called “wicked and slothful,” and his portion given to another. He was not admitted either. So again your examples fail to prove the existence of “middlens.”
We as sons of God are His servants. We’re one and the same.
Again, a doctrine of works. Those who filled their lamps and used the money entrusted to them to make a profit (win souls) are saved. Those who failed their tasks were not.
I doubt you think of yours as a doctrine of works, however tat is absolutely how it plays out. Again, the Messianic view is that works are a result of salvation, not a means to salvation. If saved, your works will surely show it. But salvation must come first, and is entirely a gift of God. Moreover our works are incited by the Ruach; part of God’s work of sanctification in us.
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Post by alfredpersson on Nov 28, 2023 11:35:23 GMT -8
I don't believe Random House is correct, the aorist is a snapshot of an event without respect to time, unless its in the indicative mood or an aorist participle:
aorist — The aorist verb tense is used by the writer to present the action of a verb as a “snapshot” event. The verb’s action is portrayed simply and in summary fashion without respect to any process. In the indicative mood, the aorist usually denotes past time, while an aorist participle usually refers to antecedent time with respect to the main verb. Outside the indicative and the participle, the aorist does not indicate time. “First Aorist” refers to the inflected form. First Aorist verbs are marked by an augment (usually a prefixed ε, η or ω) and either -σα, -ξα, or -ψα as part of the suffix endings.-Heiser, M. S., & Setterholm, V. M. (2013; 2013). Glossary of Morpho-Syntactic Database Terminology. Lexham Press.
In Mt 5:17 its "active", signifying Christ was performing the fulfilling as He spoke.
In Space-Time Christ fulfilled all written in Daniel 9:24, when the Messiah was cut off for our sins (Dan. 9:26), when He was crucified: "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. (Dan. 9:24 NKJ) Christ fulfilled the Law literally, bringing into being all it was meant to accomplish but did not. So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. (Jn. 19:30 NKJ) This is why the curtain of the Most Holy was torn, and God left the Temple causing the Rocks to split and an earthquake: Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, (Matt. 27:51 NKJ) The purpose of the Temple was fulfilled, so God left. |
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Post by alon on Nov 28, 2023 21:28:26 GMT -8
Again, this would depend on how you interpret “fulfill.” I have shown the interpretation handed down by the church fathers to be worse than specious. I know how difficult it is to see past this; it has been drummed into the consciousness of not only Christianity but into that of all western countries. It is doctrine; blind, unquestioning belief- dogma. Yes, the Christ fulfilled Torah and the prophets (and all the OT). But He did not do away with even the smallest part of it:
Matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Yeshua could not have even more clear. And even Christian doctrine accepts that all prophecy has not been accomplished, nor has heaven and earth passed away.
The veil was rent because God as Messiah had died. But the purpose of the Temple was not “fulfilled” as you mean it.
In Acts 21 Paul participated in the Nazarine Vow. This meant he had to have made sacrifices at the Temple.
Micah prophesied there will be a Temple in the world to come, and all men will go there to worship God. He also prophesied Torah observance in those days. Micah 4:1-2 It shall come to pass in the latter days
that the mountain of the house of the Lord
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and it shall be lifted up above the hills;
and peoples shall flow to it,
and many nations shall come, and say:
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob,
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
Ezekiel 40-48 describes this latter Temple in a detailed vision.
Sabbath will be kept in the world to come, and there will be sacrifices in God’s Temple:
Isaiah 56:6-7 “And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant— these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.”
There are more proofs, but from these it is clear neither the Temple nor the “Law” have “fulfilled/ended/completed/done away with” their purpose.
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Post by alfredpersson on Dec 4, 2023 2:58:40 GMT -8
You seem to agree James says Gentiles need not keep the law, and that we should not do any of the four things mentioned in verse 20.
So I am confused what exactly is "the disagreement". What in the law is required of Gentile Christians?
The "4 things" were a starting point in order to be received into fellowship. From there you are taught more each week is is read and taught in synagogue; and that on Shabbat, not the 1st day (Sunday).
No place in scripture was or any part of the OT done away with. No new laws were made in the NT, nor was anything changed in scripture. The changes were all rationalizations made by the church fathers not by reading scripture, but by 'leaning to their own understanding.'
I am not sure how you are reading my posts that I agree with Christianity on these and other issues, but I do not. Sorry. Thanks for clearing that up. We disagree. No need to rehash the debate, neither of us will change our opinion.
I hope others will engage the OP, I'm excited about it. I think its great news for everyone, Jew and Gentile. Peace.
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- there are 70 faces to 
