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Post by alfredpersson on Nov 12, 2023 8:13:10 GMT -8
How do Messianic Jews interpret Romans 11:7. In my opinion it reflects the school of Hillel division of mankind into three groups, the Elect, the Intermediate, the Reprobate. Paul was taught by Gamaliel, school of Hillel. What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. -Rom. 11:7. [I.15 A] Said R. Kruspedai said R. Yohanan, “Three books are opened [by God] on the New Year: one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for middling [people]. “The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for [continued] life. [C] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for death. [D] “Middling [people] are left han bging from New Year until the Day of Atonement. [E] “If they [are found to have] merit, they are inscribed for life. [F] “If they [are found] not [to have] merit, they are inscribed for death.” ... [I.16 A] It has been taught on Tannaite authority: The House of Shammai say, “[There will be] three groups on the Day of Judgment [when the dead will rise]: one comprised of the thoroughly righteous, one comprised of the thoroughly wicked, and one of middling [people]. [C] “The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for eternal life. [D] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for Gehenna, [E] “as it is written [Dan. 12:2]: ‘And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to eternal life and some to  and everlasting contemPet.’ [F] “Middling [people] go down to Gehenna [17a], scream [in prayer], and rise [again], [G] “as it is written [Zech. 13:9]: ‘And I will put this third into the fire and refine them as one refines silver and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will answer them.’ [H] “And, concerning this group, Hannah said [1 Sam. 2:6]: ‘The Lord kills and brings to life. He brings down to Sheol and raises up.’ ” [The Hillelites reject the notion that the middling group initially is sent to Gehenna.] The House of Hillel say, “But [contrary to what the Shammaites hold, God] who abounds in mercy leans towards mercy.
[J] “And concerning them [that is, the middling group] David said [Ps. 116:1]: ‘I love the Lord, because he has heard my voice [and my supplications].’
[K] “And [further] concerning them David stated the whole passage [which begins, Ps. 116:6]: ‘The Lord preserves the simple; when I was brought low, he saved me.’ ”
-Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 6b, p. 83-84). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."
9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
…
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:7-12:1 NKJ)
In other words, the Reprobate are lost eternally, but those of the Elect and Intermediate in context are “all Israel”, many of whom died unbelievers in Christ, enemies of the Gospel. But out of Zion comes their deliverer, who rescues them from Hades. That causes Paul to profusely praise God for His Mercy.
Don't misunderstand, there is no salvation apart from Christ. Everyone who dies without Christ, who have not committed eternal sins, who are not reprobate wicked, hear the gospel of Christ preached to them in Hades, and they can repent and believe, then live according to God in the Spirit waiting for the Resurrection to life:
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)
They hear Christ's voice in Hades, and all who obediently hear will rise to the resurrection of life:
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)
Paul was taught by Gamaliel, school of Hillel, NT eschatology reflects their beliefs:
"I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers' law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today. (Acts 22:3 NKJ)
Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Matt. 13:52 NKJ)
A study of the Church fathers implies the Christian Church became confused about Hades, after they lost access to Israeli culture of the First Century. They mixed in pagan ideas and confused NT statements so that Hades became a place of torment rather than the intermediate place where souls are judged, after hearing the gospel preached:
Christ's timeless sacrifice extends redemption to everyone born on earth since the "foundation of the world", and all who accept the gospel of Christ at their judgment then "eagerly wait for Him", His second coming when they will be raised from the dead, raptured with the church:
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
(Heb. 9:24-28 NKJ)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
(1 Thess. 4:13-18 NKJ)
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1 Cor. 15:51-57 NKJ)
Or if they were saved after the Rapture, at the Great White Throne Judgment where their name will be found written into the Lamb's Book of Life and rise to the resurrection of life:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev. 20:12-15 NKJ)
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Post by alon on Nov 13, 2023 15:53:23 GMT -8
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”
This would seem to go against your point, s the elect are the only ones to obtain salvation.
As we read on the answer to your question gets a bit more clear:
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27
“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
“All Israel” can mean all who are left at the end, or it can refer to everyone who has accepted Yeshua and been faithful to the end. But I do not believe it means every Jew or Israeli citizen gains salvation in the end. Would that include Korah and his followers? What about Jeroboam, Omri, Ahab, or Ahaziah? Scripture is full of Jews who did pure evil in the sight of God. Now, I know they would be class 3 offenders in your theology and not eligible for parol from Hell. But if you are going to say “all Israe,” then they are part of that set.
Just prior however we read:
19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
The only way I can see this to be interpreted is if they do not continue in their unbelief in life. Does this mean they can repent and believe after they have died and gone to Hell? Well, if that can happen then Hell will empty of class 2 offenders pretty quick, I’d imagine! But I do not see it in scripture. "Hebrews 9:27 "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment." It doesn't say "But if you don't like Hell ..." You die, you are judged, and that's it.
Most of the rest of your arguments rest on the opinions of others without context. For example:
The opening and closing of the books during the Yamim Norahim (Days of Awe) concern the next year for the living. And while scripture does talk about the books, this is from custom, not strictly scripture. But without context I cannot tell for sure what the author is talking about. Regardless, this is opinion, not scripture.
While we do look at the opinions of others, they cannot bear the same weight as scripture; and without scriptural reference we cannot accept them as valid.
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Post by alfredpersson on Nov 13, 2023 18:47:52 GMT -8
@@@
Its easy to miss, but the “equation”: “The elect obtained” (=The thoroughly righteous becomes the Chosen in the NT), “the REST” were hardened (=Middling) but we learn later, although they were hardened in disobedience, “have they stumbled that they should fall? Certain not!....if their fall was riches to the world, how much more their fullness!...blindness…has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel is saved”…Rom. 11:7-26.
Paul is including Gentiles as members of the “Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16), but not leaving out the “Middling people” (=the rest; = the fullness), all Israel is saved, including those who died disobedient to the gospel.
Of course the thoroughly wicked, children of the Devil, are not “Israel” regardless what their flesh implies:
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called."
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. (Rom. 9:6-8 NKJ)
Romans 11:19-23 is relevant to the Gentiles, not those who were committed to disobedience.
God has mercy on all Israel: Israeli's of the flesh He committed to disobedience to allow time for the full number of Gentiles come in, and the Gentiles so the “fullness” of BOTH groups could be saved, "their full number".
God didn’t want to stop saving before all who could be saved, are:
The Genius of God’s plan, The abundant Mercy it exhibits providing time for the Gentiles be saved also, causes Paul to confess:
32 For God has committed them all [The Middling] to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:32-12:1 NKJ)
Your last comment misunderstood why I cited the Talmud. It is relevant to the NT because Christ declared teachers should bring out of the Pharisee Tradition, some of which is “treasure”, new things and old:
Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Matt. 13:52 NKJ)
Moreover, Paul was a disciple of Gamaliel, the school of Hillel his father. He was immersed in Pharisee tradition, it would be impossible to believe none of that is present in his writings:
3 "I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers' law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today. (Acts 22:3 NKJ)
I believe the “three classes” are clearly implied in this Romans 11 context, especially when Paul says the Elect Israel obtained salvation, but “the rest” (the Middling) are saved later.
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Post by alon on Nov 14, 2023 1:31:52 GMT -8
@@@ Its easy to miss, but the “equation”: “The elect obtained” (=The thoroughly righteous becomes the Chosen in the NT), “the REST” were hardened (=Middling) but we learn later, although they were hardened in disobedience, “have they stumbled that they should fall? Certain not!....if their fall was riches to the world, how much more their fullness!...blindness…has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel is saved”…Rom. 11:7-26. Paul is including Gentiles as members of the “Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16), but not leaving out the “Middling people” (=the rest; = the fullness), all Israel is saved, including those who died disobedient to the gospel. Of course the thoroughly wicked, children of the Devil, are not “Israel” regardless what their flesh implies:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. (Rom. 9:6-8 NKJ) Romans 11:19-23 is relevant to the Gentiles, not those who were committed to disobedience. God has mercy on all Israel: Israeli's of the flesh He committed to disobedience to allow time for the full number of Gentiles come in, and the Gentiles so the “fullness” of BOTH groups could be saved, "their full number".
God didn’t want to stop saving before all who could be saved, are:The Genius of God’s plan, The abundant Mercy it exhibits providing time for the Gentiles be saved also, causes Paul to confess:
32 For God has committed them all [The Middling] to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?" 35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?" 36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:32-12:1 NKJ) Your last comment misunderstood why I cited the Talmud. It is relevant to the NT because Christ declared teachers should bring out of the Pharisee Tradition, some of which is “treasure”, new things and old: Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Matt. 13:52 NKJ) Moreover, Paul was a disciple of Gamaliel, the school of Hillel his father. He was immersed in Pharisee tradition, it would be impossible to believe none of that is present in his writings: 3 "I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers' law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today. (Acts 22:3 NKJ) I believe the “three classes” are clearly implied in this Romans 11 context, especially when Paul says the Elect Israel obtained salvation, but “the rest” (the Middling) are saved later. |
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Post by alfredpersson on Nov 14, 2023 6:09:54 GMT -8
I apologize, didn't realize I broke the rules. We are all dying of something, pray we go without too much pain. Most everyone I know are dead or dying, my time likely near.
But be of good cheer, we are closer to seeing our LORD than when we first believed.
One last word in defense of my exegesis, its not convoluted. I follow Paul's argument precisely, he begins lamenting about Israel, then digresses to the Gentiles, then returns to Israel but also including Gentiles in "all Israel is saved", which causes him to joyously praise God:
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Rom. 11:33 NKJ)
There is no sadness for Israelites "committed to disobdience" because God will "have mercy on all" of them.
Peace Brother, I'll pray for both of us.
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Post by alon on Nov 14, 2023 9:57:14 GMT -8
I apologize, didn't realize I broke the rules. We are all dying of something, pray we go without too much pain. Most everyone I know are dead or dying, my time likely near. But be of good cheer, we are closer to seeing our LORD than when we first believed. One last word in defense of my exegesis, its not convoluted. I follow Paul's argument precisely, he begins lamenting about Israel, then digresses to the Gentiles, then returns to Israel but also including Gentiles in "all Israel is saved", which causes him to joyously praise God: Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Rom. 11:33 NKJ) There is no sadness for Israelites "committed to disobdience" because God will "have mercy on all" of them. Peace Brother, I'll pray for both of us.
I did not tell you that to illicit sympathy; rather to say my mind is not as clear as it used to be.
I can appreciate that you did not know, which is why I asked you to read the rules. I am pretty lenient with new posters, seldom giving out "official warnings" (which none of those messages to you was). But there comes a point where I must, as the rules are there to make it easier and more useable for all. Plus they are "listed as "Rules and Guidelines." So I have a certain amount of leeway in enforcing them. As I said, I used to would have enjoyed parsing out your posts, discussing them item by item. I just do not have the mental acuity to do that any more. Still, it is not just my forum, so I would have to insist we abide by the 'no overly long posts' rule as an example.
There are several things in your post which are worth discussing. You assume there is a Hell, which I let go for purposes of the discussion topic. Some believe there is not (I can see both sides of this one). Also you are a Trinitarian. I used to be (Southern Baptist PK here). Now I fall more to the idea of One God who is able to manifest Himself as He likes for as long as He likes for His own purposes. Many Messianics believe in One God who has a Spirit (just as we do) and who manifests as Yeshua. The qehilah where I worship falls somewhere between this last and your Trinity. Not a hill to die on, as long as the views are respectful and biblical based. And no one fully understands God anyhow, so I tend not to be an absolutist here. But we can learn from all of them.
Anyhow, you are welcome to discuss things here. But please read the rules. And keep the posts short and to the point. Long posts such as yours tend to quickly devolve into teaching, which unless they fall within Messianic Judaism is against the rules. The reason is we in the past have gotten a lot of people trying to convert us. Christians trying to bring us back into the fold, Muslims, cults, and some really strange ones.
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Post by alfredpersson on Nov 14, 2023 10:49:26 GMT -8
Thank you. While I am Orthodox Trinitarian, I found Pro. Benjamin D Sommer's "The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel" a fascination read, you might also. For example, Genesis 18 begins with YHVH manifested by three men, only later does one speak as "the LORD". Sommer discusses that and other indications of a Trinity of some sort in pre-Christian Judaism, which seems to be similar to what you believe:
CHRISTIANITY IN LIGHT OF JUDAISM's EMBODIED GOD This study forces a reevaluation of a common Jewish attitude toward Christianity. Some Jews regard Christianity's claim to be a monotheistic religion with grave suspicion, both because of the doctrine of the trinity (how can three equal one?) and because of Christianity's core belief that God took bodily form.What I have attempted to point out here is that biblical Israel knew very similar doctrines, and these doctrines did not disappear from Judaism after the biblical period.
Sommer, Benjamin D.. The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel (p. 135). Cambridge University Press. Kindle Edition.
I finally read the rules and apologize again for the long post.
Shalom
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Post by alon on Nov 15, 2023 7:39:15 GMT -8
Thank you. While I am Orthodox Trinitarian, I found Pro. Benjamin D Sommer's "The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel" a fascination read, you might also. For example, Genesis 18 begins with YHVH manifested by three men, only later does one speak as "the LORD". Sommer discusses that and other indications of a Trinity of some sort in pre-Christian Judaism, which seems to be similar to what you believe: CHRISTIANITY IN LIGHT OF JUDAISM's EMBODIED GOD This study forces a reevaluation of a common Jewish attitude toward Christianity. Some Jews regard Christianity's claim to be a monotheistic religion with grave suspicion, both because of the doctrine of the trinity (how can three equal one?) and because of Christianity's core belief that God took bodily form.What I have attempted to point out here is that biblical Israel knew very similar doctrines, and these doctrines did not disappear from Judaism after the biblical period. Sommer, Benjamin D.. The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel (p. 135). Cambridge University Press. Kindle Edition. I finally read the rules and apologize again for the long post. Shalom
And the Lord יְהוָ֔ה appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day.
The first name given is יְהוָ֔ה, the Covenant Name of the Almighty. In Gen 1:3 the term “Lord” appears again: וַיֹּאמַ֑ר אֲדֹנָ֗י אִם־נָ֨א מָצָ֤אתִי חֵן֙ בְּעֵינֶ֔יךָ אַל־נָ֥א תַעֲבֹ֖ר מֵעַ֥ל עַבְדֶּֽךָ׃
and said, “My Lord [אֲדֹנָ֗י Adonai], if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant.
Again addressing God, but using a title instead of the Covenant Name, which Jews do not overuse out of respect (one of the few things Judaism and Christianity agree on, as יְהוָ֔ה is rendered LORD in English Bibles). The other two “men” were never addressed or referred to as deity. They were malachim, messengers- heavenly messengers in this case, commonly referred to as angels. They did the bidding of the first One, never acting on their own nor doing anything to represent themselves as divinity. I cannot prove it, though a good inductive case might be made; but I believe the first “man” to be Yeshua. And as I indicated earlier, I believe Him to be a manifestation of Adonai, God. Again, my own understanding, though I am familiar with the inductive proofs for a Trinity. While I will not say absolutely Trinitarians are wrong, I do not see any such proof in this text.One is called the LORD immediately, the others never are. That One is also the only one who speaks as The LORD. The Jews view Christianity and all things Christian with suspicion because in 136 CE the Bar Kochba Revolt was brutally crushed by the Romans. They actually almost won, but the sect of the Notsarim (Nazarenes) had pulled out and went to Pella because they were being persecuted and killed. Rabbi Akiva had said Bar Kochba was the Messiah, and demanded everyone bow or kneel and proclaim him so. Believers in Yeshua could not do this, and were persecuted for their stance.Then of course there is the 2000 year history of extreme persecution of Jews by the “church.” This is why they will not even consider either your view on Jesus or mine, even though the entire Old Testament looks forward to Yeshua HaMoshiach. Again I think we see one instance here of what you would call a Christophany. On that we can agree. But the other 2 were malachim, not any other manifestation of Adonai. |
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Post by alfredpersson on Nov 15, 2023 13:32:19 GMT -8
I agree, they are clearly identified as angels later. But as Pro. Sommer observes, the writer begins implying the three were a manifestation of the LORD. What I found so fascinating, was the connection the Prof. made which permits Christian Trinitarianism be seen as "organic" to Judaism of the 1st century, not a Gentile creation:
Genesis 18, a J text, provides one of the most revealing cases. At the outset of that chapter, we read, “ Yhwh manifested Himself () to Abraham amidst the trees of Mamre while Abraham was sitting at the entrance of his tent, at the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and saw three men coming toward him” (Genesis 18.1– 2). The juxtaposition of these two sentences (which are from a single Pentateuchal source7) implies that Yhwh appears in the form of three men, or at least in the form of one of the three men. Abraham, however, does not realize that his visitors are not human. He directs his attention especially to one of these men, whom he addresses in the singular, using the obsequious courtesy normal in the ancient Near East: “ My Lord, if you find me acceptable, please do not pass by your servant” (18.3). All three men subsequently speak in 18.9; in 18.10 one visitor, still not identified explicitly, predicts or promises to return months later, at which time Abraham will have a son. Thus this visitor speaks prophetically, which is to say, in God's voice, though whether this is because the visitor is God or merely represents God is not made clear. (The alternation between singular and plural continues throughout this passage.10) Finally, in 18.13 the narrator stops being coy and simply refers to one of the visitors as Yhwh. Two of the visitors leave, and the one who remains with Abraham is now clearly identified as Yhwh (18.22)…
The other two beings are subsequently referred to as angels (19.1). It is clear that Yhwh appears in bodily form to Abraham in this passage; what is less clear is whether all three bodies were Yhwh's throughout, or whether all three were Yhwh's at the outset of the chapter but only one of them by its end, or whether the other two were merely servants (perhaps human, perhaps divine) who, for no clear reason, were accompanying Yhwh.
Sommer, Benjamin D.. The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel (p. 40). Cambridge University Press. Kindle Edition.
The professor shows the connection to Jewish Tradition that has been obscured. While he rejects the claims of Christ, he documents the idea of Christ as God manifest in the Flesh is "Jewish", not pagan:
CHRISTIANITY IN LIGHT OF JUDAISM's EMBODIED GOD This study forces a reevaluation of a common Jewish attitude toward Christianity. Some Jews regard Christianity's claim to be a monotheistic religion with grave suspicion, both because of the doctrine of the trinity (how can three equal one?) and because of Christianity's core belief that God took bodily form.59What I have attempted to point out here is that biblical Israel knew very similar doctrines, and these doctrines did not disappear from Judaism after the biblical period.60To be sure, Jews must repudiate many beliefs central to most forms of Christianity; these include a commitment to a person whom Judaism regards as a false messiah; the repudiation of the Sinai covenant to which God committed Godself and Israel eternally; the veto on the binding force of Jewish law; those aspects of Christian ethics that subjugate justice to victimhood; and the rejection of God's baffling but sovereign choice of a particular family and that family's descendants. No Jew sensitive to Judaism's own classical sources, however, can fault the theological model Christianity employs when it avows belief in a God who has an earthly body as well as a Holy Spirit and a heavenly manifestation, for that model, we have seen, is a perfectly Jewish one. A religion whose scripture contains the fluidity traditions, whose teachings emphasize the multiplicity of the shekhinah, and whose thinkers speak of the sephirotdoes not differ in its theological essentials from a religion that adores the triune God.61Note that the Christian beliefs that Judaism rejects are not specifically theological in nature. The only significant theological difference between Judaism and Christianity lies not in the trinity or in the incarnation but in Christianity's revival of the notion of a dying and rising God, a category ancient Israel clearly rejects.62 Indeed, in light of this study, certain cliché d assumptions common among both Jews and Christians who attempt to distinguish their theologies must be stood on their heads. Divine embodiment, paradoxically, emerges from this study as far more important to Judaism than to Christianity. For the Tanakh, for rabbinic literature, and for important strands in Jewish mysticism, God has always been a corporeal being. For Christianity, in contrast, God deigned to take on a body at a particular moment in time; existence in a body was not part of the eternal essence of divinity.63In short: Christians believe in incarnation, whereas the Tanakh simply believes in embodiment.64This difference between the Jewish model of divine embodiment and the Christian emphasis on incarnation nullifies, indeed overturns, an entire tradition of anti-Christian polemic within Judaism. The Maimonidean, of course, still has the right to reject Christianity's theological model; but many a modern Jew recognizes the extraordinarily strained nature of the hermeneutic through which Maimonides attempts to deny the corporeality of the biblical and rabbinic God. For such a Jew, Maimonides’ rejection would also compel a rejection of most of the Written and Oral Torahs. It would entail, in other words, the creation of a new religion whose earliest sacred document would be found in the tenth-century C.E. philosophical writings of Maimonides’ predecessor, Saadia Gaon. The ironies this line of thinking uncovers are relevant to Christianity as well as to Judaism.
Sommer, Benjamin D.. The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel (pp. 135-137). Cambridge University Press. Kindle Edition.
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Post by alon on Nov 16, 2023 11:52:44 GMT -8
No buts’- they were identified as “angels” (Heb “malachim,” messengers), so angels they were and are. If we are to believe they were a manifestation of God a) we’d need evidence, and b) there would be continuity unless a reason in the story necessitated the switch. Christianity has a tendency to spiritualize everything, while Judaism is more grounded. One of the main rules of scriptural exegesis is the p’shat (plain text) must agree with any other interpretation.
To say that Avraham saw all three at once means they were all a manifestation of God is more than just stretching the point. It stretches the credulity of the entire article.
Men and angels can and have prophesied throughout the Bible. Again, simply assigning deified status to one prophesying speaks to the credibility of the author. You cannot simply assign status to someone in order to make your point. And all the parsing of scripture to sound knowledgable does not give the author leeway to do so.
Only One is identified as deity. Therefore:
... only One is YHVH, manifest here in human form. I think that is very clear. It is also clear the other 2 were malachim, heavenly messengers (angels). I also think the story makes their purpose abundantly clear.
On this point I can agree.
Obviously true.
I don’t think Judaism as a whole does this.
Actually, they kind of went overboard with this one.
My wife is Jewish, and I was raised Southern Baptist. Trust me, both camps revel in this one.
This is one reason I believe in a doctrine of “manifestations of God.” He appeared in so many ways, each to accomplish a particular purpose. But when He did appear as such, He was true to both form and purpose. He did not change willy-nilly so as to confuse either the characters in the story or later readers.
I also read scripture as God did not so much "choose" Israel as He created the nation, starting with one man whose faith was strong. man, with human weaknesses; but one who was obedient to the point of killing his own son when asked. (God did not tell him to do this, He asked Avraham to do it as a friend might.)
Now you are straying into Jewish mysticism, but I see your point.
There are some similarities, granted. But I do not see the proof. In fact, if the Jews made this connection as 3 constant and separate beings of a “Godhead" they would have seen Yeshua and the Ruach (Jesus and the Spirit) as subordinate gods (small “g”). We were all taught that ancient Judaism was monotheistic. It was not. They were henotheistic. They lived in a world of very real gods everywhere. This is still the case, by the way. However there was/is One God over all of these; only One God worthy of worship and obedience. One God in whose presence most of these lesser gods cower and quake. Some, such as the council He referenced when deciding to make man in "our" image apparently still serve Him. That is the God Israel served.
Actually I do not think all ancient Israel rejected this idea. I don’t recall where I read it, but do a search and you might find the rabbis argued this, probably in the Mishnah.
God was always a very real being, but in most of Judaism of the time and in all the Bible He is a spirit being. Even when Moshe saw Him from the cleft in the rock the description was that of the form of a man, but very spirit-like and awesome.
I think most Jews, if they thought of it would have agreed. God is spirit, and He has a Spirit, and He did at times appear to men as a man Himself.
No, I think the Tenach supports God appearing in different manifestations, including that of a man.
In your mind, yes, that conclusion is inescapable. Trust me, I understand. It took me a long time and a lot of study, as well as many discussions to let go Trinitarianism after I became Messianic. And I think you will find that not just many, but most if not almost every modern Jew believes in what they were taught as much as you. The only difference I see is Christians compartmentalize everything, where Jews tend to rationalize. Both are capable of both, of course. But the end result is the very human tendency to pick out evidence that supports their beliefs while ignoring evidence against.
There are many theological schools of thought in contemporary Judaism. But in all of these we find contemporary Judaism to be completely different to any 1st cen Judaism. If however a Jew wanted to convert to Christianity he must give up almost everything that makes him Jewish. This is one of the travesties of Christian thought- and a great example of Christian compartmentalization. Biblically we Gentiles are grafted onto Israel, becoming sons by adoption. We are nourished by what Paul metaphorically called the cultivated olive tree. Christianity would have the Jew grafted onto the wild olive tree of the church. (Biblically there are only 2 groups of people- Hebrews and pagans.)
Contemporary Messianism came about because many Jews who wished to accept Yeshua as their Moshiach did not want to give up their Jewishness to join the church. For many of us Gentile believers MJ offered answers to many problems we had with Christian doctrines, so MJ has grown past what anyone thought it would.
(Epiphanius, AD 370, Panarion 29) "But these sectarians... did not call themselves Christians-but "Nazarenes," ... However they are simply complete Jews. They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do… They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion-- except for their belief in Messiah, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that G-d is one, and that his son is Yeshua the Messiah. They are trained to a nicety in Hebrew. For among them the entire Law, the Prophets, and the... Writings... are read in Hebrew, as they surely are by the Jews. They are different from the Jews, and different from Christians, only in the following. They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Messiah; but since they are still fettered by the Law -- circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest-- they are not in accord with Christians...they are nothing but Jews… They have the Good News according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was originally written.”
I have several similar quotes fron church fathers over the centuries. They hated the Notsarim so much they could not help themselves writing about them. But in so doing they give us a record saying these early Messianic believers were consistent, believing and practicing their faith just as was done in the 1st cen by the apostles and their early kehilot (assemblies).
“They are nothing but Jews.” Yes, they and we were and are grafted in. And most Christian doctrine says they are also. However this statement by one of the early fathers tells of the real mindset and intent of Christian doctrines. Everything was changed in their new religion so as to completely eschew any part of or semblance to Judaism. In so doing, they created another pagan religion, which then splintered into several more or less pagan denominations. However, ‘Know ye not that a little paganism leavens the whole church?’ But this is what I mean by compartmentalization. Christianity believes they are grafted into Israel. But they hated Israel (and many still do) so much they had to ignore Paul and his metaphorical diagram of the root-stalks and come up with the unbiblical idea they are the “New Israel.” “We are grafted on in this compartment, but we just are in this one here, and Jews must be grafted onto our root-stalk if they want to be saved.” Not anywhere in the 66 books of my Bible.
Christians, and even many Messianics misunderstand the reason for an Oral Torah. As for Jews, their problem is the rabbonim, fearful they were loosing Judaism in the diaspora codified the Oral Torah so that it could not be changed. Then some gave it a status equal to, and some even above that of Torah. But an Oral Torah is necessary, and it should function as intended or it is useless at best, problematic in fact.
First you must disabuse yourself of the notion of Torah as "Law." It connotes "instruction" far more than law. To be sure, there are laws in Torah. But it would be foolish to write a law with mostly history and stories to illustrate different points. And laws do not prophesy.
There has always been an Oral Torah. Adam would have been given far more instruction in caring for the garden than just "don't eat of that fruit." Rabonim and shaliachim (rabbis and apostles) made rulings all through sripture. These were part of an oral tradition; an Oral Torah, if you will. Instructions on the minutia of observing the written Torah. Torah itself is immutable. It cannot be changed. However an Oral Torah is meant to be changed. Its' purpose is to make Torah applicable to every man in every time, place, and circumstance.
Mod note: This is getting a bit long. We should pick one or two points and discuss them. We can revisit the others later.
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Post by alfredpersson on Nov 17, 2023 14:32:00 GMT -8
I thought you'd like that. Because I didn't properly identify my comment from the professor's, you mistook some of his for mine. I apologize for that.
I agree we should focus on specific issues.
We are in agreement about the horrible treatment Jews eventually received in the Gentile church. I blame much of it on the "accident of history", the Jews being cast out of Israel destoying the Jewish "Mother Church" in Jerusalem. If it had survived, Roman Catholicism with its popery wouldn't exist. Its likely Nazism wouldn't have existed either:
"I have several similar quotes fron church fathers over the centuries. They hated the Notsarim so much they could not help themselves writing about them. But in so doing they give us a record saying these early Messianic believers were consistent, believing and practicing their faith just as was done in the 1st cen by the apostles and their early kehilot (assemblies).
“They are nothing but Jews.” Yes, they and we were and are grafted in. And most Christian doctrine says they are also. However this statement by one of the early fathers tells of the real mindset and intent of Christian doctrines. Everything was changed in their new religion so as to completely eschew any part of or semblance to Judaism."
The Christian "Magisterium" would have been in Jerusalem and never allow anti-semitic attitudes take root:
13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me:
14 "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
15 "And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 `After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the LORD who does all these things.'
18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works.
19 "Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
20 "but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.
21 "For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.
23 They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings.
24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law "-- to whom we gave no such commandment-- (Acts 15:13-24 NKJ)
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Post by alfredpersson on Nov 17, 2023 21:12:16 GMT -8
It was the Professors point. Again, I apologize for not distinguishing my comment from his. As I am 100% ignorant of Kaballah, lets not go there. My focus is on scripture, sola scriptura. I am ignorant of Jewish mysticism, and most things Jewish, especially contemporary Judaism.My use of the Talmud etc., is very selective. I enter those materials to find "context" to NT teaching, otherwise I'm very ignorant of those as well. My extrapolation of the School of Hillel to Post-mortem evangelization, actually sprang from reading Everyman's Talmud. Abraham Cohen summarized: 28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ) In context its "all [the spiritually dead] who obediently hear" whether physically alive OR physically dead in the graves, will pass from death into life. Christ is citing His ability to make alive even the dead, as proof He is equal with God; That the Father has given His authority to make alive, to the Son and all should honor the Son even as they honor the Father (John 5:18-23): 24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, (Jn. 5:24-26 NKJ) Men die, in Hades is a Judgment, and all who pass then "eagerly wait" for His second coming to deliver them: 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.(Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ) For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ) On my site I go through dozens of OT and NT scriptures that implicitly or explicitly teach repentance in Hades is acceptable to God. endtimenews.net/will-there-be-a-second-chance-for-salvation-after-death/By "manifestations" I assume you mean Theophany? I can agree with you, if that's correct. God never confused who He is by His appearances to man. And I thank you. You corrected an assumption of mine, I assumed God chose the nation Israel, when in fact He chose Israel the man as you said: 7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: 8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; (Deut. 7:7-9 KJV) |
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Post by alon on Nov 18, 2023 19:04:50 GMT -8
I thought you'd like that. Because I didn't properly identify my comment from the professor's, you mistook some of his for mine. I apologize for that. No problem. I agree we should focus on specific issues. Makes it easier for others to follow and, if they wish to respond. Just FYI, I sometimes wait and give others a chance to respond. Not many are active right now, but I'd like to see that change, so I give others a chance (I'm always here, so I have to watch that I don't "dominate" the forum).
We are in agreement about the horrible treatment Jews eventually received in the Gentile church. I blame much of it on the "accident of history", the Jews being cast out of Israel destoying the Jewish "Mother Church" in Jerusalem. If it had survived, Roman Catholicism with its popery wouldn't exist. Its likely Nazism wouldn't have existed either: Well, that gets into a whole 'nuther discussion, which is one of my pet peeves. Really quick- I blame the church fathers, most of who virulently hated the Jews. They wanted to get rid of anything "Jewish" in their new religion. This likely would have happened regardless, though had not the Jews been cast out it might not have been as bad. If you want to discuss this it would best be done in a new thread.
"I have several similar quotes fron church fathers over the centuries. They hated the Notsarim so much they could not help themselves writing about them. But in so doing they give us a record saying these early Messianic believers were consistent, believing and practicing their faith just as was done in the 1st cen by the apostles and their early kehilot (assemblies).
“They are nothing but Jews.” Yes, they and we were and are grafted in. And most Christian doctrine says they are also. However this statement by one of the early fathers tells of the real mindset and intent of Christian doctrines. Everything was changed in their new religion so as to completely eschew any part of or semblance to Judaism." See above ...
The Christian "Magisterium" would have been in Jerusalem and never allow anti-semitic attitudes take root: The enemy, ha'satan hates the Jews because they are God's people. Also the Jews must be here in the Olam Haba, the World to Come. If he can destroy them he thinks he wins.13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 "And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: 16 `After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up; 17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the LORD who does all these things.' 18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 "Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 "but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 "For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath." 22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren. 23 They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law "-- to whom we gave no such commandment-- (Acts 15:13-24 NKJ) Both Christians and Messianics use the above as a proof text. Let me show you how we interpret it:
Those four things were a starting point only. "Moses" here is a clear reference to Torah, for it was through Moshe God gave us His Torah. Those first five books are also called by Christians, Jews, and Messianics alike "The Books of Moses." Torah was then and still is today taught in every Jewish and Messianic synagogue, usually to one of three schedules: 1 year, 3 year, or 3 1/2 year. The idea here is as they are taught Torah each week they will learn; they will grow as they go. This is another example of the Christian proclivity to compartmentalize. They take that one verse (v. 20) and build a doctrine on it that no more is required, and in the process disregarding the 10 Commandments, the rest of the New Testament, and not to mention the entire Old Testament. But scripture must be read in context- in this case just the context of the very next verse! Putting vss. 20 & 21 together puts a whole new light on the meaning of v. 20. v. 24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law "-- to whom we gave no such commandment-- (Acts 15:13-24 NKJ)There was a problem amongst the new believers. A "circumcision faction," probably Jewish believers who were still having problems with Gentiles among themselves. Or it could have been one of the many extremist Jewish groups of the time. Regardless who they were, they were telling new believers they had to go through the proselyte conversion process of Judaism, thus becoming rabbinically Jewish before they could be saved. They were likely telling this to new believers from amongst the Gentiles because most Jews would have known better. You were "saved" then just like you are now. Put your faith and trust in the God of Israel and worship Him only, joining with the people of Israel (Hebrews/Jews). In all Torah or the prophets or the writings of the apostles there is no commandment, instruction, or even suggestion that one must be circumcised- either physically or metaphorically (which is how the term is used here) in order to be saved. Avraham believed/trusted God and it was counted to him as righteousness BEFORE he was circumcised! Indeed, physical circumcision does you no good if you do not believe! Believe first, and you are saved. After that, because you want to please God and be obedient you should get circumcised. But the metaphor of circumcision as meaning full proselyte conversion before being able to obtain salvation is false. Salvation should, and in fact must come first if one is not already circumcised; and it must come before the conversion process because you need the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) to guide you throughout the process. Salvation is by grace through faith, not by formula, process, ritual, or any other man made ideas. I think this is one of the things baptism (tevilah) shows us. If you are not saved first, all baptism does for you is get you wet. If not saved first, all the conversion process does for you is fill your head with knowledge. I am rambling, but my head is not really attached right now and my "knowledge" is escaping randomly. Sorry. I will stop and let you ask questions (you must have a few after all that). |
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Post by alfredpersson on Nov 19, 2023 9:54:56 GMT -8
v. 21 "For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
Those four things were a starting point only. "Moses" here is a clear reference to  , for it was through Moshe God gave us His . Those first five books are also called by Christians, Jews, and Messianics alike "The Books of Moses." was then and still is today taught in every Jewish and Messianic synagogue, usually to one of three schedules: 1 year, 3 year, or 3 1/2 year. The idea here is as they are taught each week they will learn; they will grow as they go. This is another example of the Christian proclivity to compartmentalize. They take that one verse (v. 20) and build a doctrine on it that no more is required, and in the process disregarding the 10 Commandments, the rest of the New Testament, and not to mention the entire Old Testament. But scripture must be read in context- in this case just the context of the very next verse! Putting vss. 20 & 21 together puts a whole new light on the meaning of v. 20.
v. 24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law "-- to whom we gave no such commandment-- (Acts 15:13-24 NKJ)
There was a problem amongst the new believers. A "circumcision faction," probably Jewish believers who were still having problems with Gentiles among themselves. Or it could have been one of the many extremist Jewish groups of the time. Regardless who they were, they were telling new believers they had to go through the proselyte conversion process of Judaism, thus becoming rabbinically Jewish before they could be saved. They were likely telling this to new believers from amongst the Gentiles because most Jews would have known better.You seem to agree James says Gentiles need not keep the law, and that we should not do any of the four things mentioned in verse 20. So I am confused what exactly is "the disagreement". What in the law is required of Gentile Christians?
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Post by alon on Nov 19, 2023 16:13:05 GMT -8
You seem to agree James says Gentiles need not keep the law, and that we should not do any of the four things mentioned in verse 20. So I am confused what exactly is "the disagreement". What in the law is required of Gentile Christians?
The "4 things" were a starting point in order to be received into fellowship. From there you are taught more each week is Torah is read and taught in synagogue; and that on Shabbat, not the 1st day (Sunday).
No place in scripture was Torah or any part of the OT done away with. No new laws were made in the NT, nor was anything changed in scripture. The changes were all rationalizations made by the church fathers not by reading scripture, but by 'leaning to their own understanding.'
I am not sure how you are reading my posts that I agree with Christianity on these and other issues, but I do not. Sorry. |
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and everlasting contemPet.’
- there are 70 faces to 
